Hi, I'm a long time lurker on these boards, but this is my first time posting. I purchased two XH-A1s this past Spring and have been experiencing what I believe some others on this board have experienced as well when playing back footage shot with the XH-A1.

Essentially, every so often, I get a piece of footage that will freeze for 1-1.5 seconds, losing audio and time code, and then continue to roll as if nothing occurred. Before you ask, yes I've cleaned the heads with a Panasonic Head Cleaner and I am using AMQs.

Sadly, I have two of these cameras, and both unfortunately exhibit the issue. Sometimes a second playback will fix the issue. Other times, the problem is permanently on the tape. I actually sent one of the cams off today to get evaluated at the Canon Service Center. Hopefully they will find the source of the problem and will be able to fix my other camera as well.

I know this topic has been talked to death, so I'm not going to ask the usual question of what's causing the issue, such as the tapes or the camera or even the environment. Instead, I was curious if it's just a matter of HDV as a format being much less stable than DV. I had a Sony VX-2000 for about 5 years that never had a single issue and I used the cheapest Sony tapes possible. I just find it hard to believe that if the HDV format was that unstable that we wouldn't hear more about it. At any rate, what do you guys think? Is HDV really that unstable, or is the XH-A1 having some frame drop issues or are AMQ tapes not as good as we thought?

Dustin,

Because of the type of compression used for HDV, using log GOP (Groups of Pictures) a single drop-out will be just what you describe. DV didn't have this problem, because it did not use the GOP structure I believe. HDV is more highly compressed and in fact the file size for a comparable length of footage is smaller with HDV.

Not sure is you cleaned the cameras when you first received them, but I would suggest you basically start from scratch. They should have both been cleaned before you put your first tape in them.

Do you have any of those cheap Sony tapes left? They are all that I use in my XLH1 and I have never had a drop-out, (fingers crossed and knocking on wood as I type!!!!!!!!!!!)

I would start by cleaning both cameras really well, maybe 15-20 seconds each, then try using one of those cheap tapes and see what happens. Remember not to rewind your cleaning tape, they are one use only. If you rewind them, you end up putting the stuff you took off the first time right back on.

Don't be afraid to clean the cameras really well and often.

Mike

I've found that HDV (HDV 2,Sony & Canon) is the same file size as DV and since they are the same data rate at 25Mbps that makes sense.

But as far as recommending cheap Sony tapes for HDV, a warning: I've been shooting with these tapes on the XL-H1, XH-A1 and XH-G1 for several months and am increasingly noticing dropouts on each tape. Sometimes it is not a worry, other times it is catastrophic (like on single-cam coverage of a dance performance). It is because of the long-GOP compression like Mike said, and the interframe dependency.

But several of these dropouts are enough for me and I'm going to try the Sony HDV tapes. Sure, they are 3 or 4x the cost, but when you can't afford dropouts it seems cheap.

So, yes, HDV is that unstable, but it is also kind of miraculous in that you can produce high-definition content so affordably. Like any format it has pros and cons.

Having researched this ad nauseam here and elsewhere, the general consensus for HDV seems to be: A) buy the highest quality-tapes you can afford, and B) keep your camera clean.

i have only used sony premium tapes since i started with hdv[sony cams]i do get the odd drop out one or so per tape on average,sometimes the drop out is only a playback one,recorded ones are there for good but i edit them out.i know some say they use premiums and have no drop outs but i have not been that lucky.

I've been using Panasonic AMQ tapes and had not seen a single dropout in dozens of tapes...until recently.

I did a shoot with another guy who also has an XH A1 back in late May. He bought all the tapes. Just a few weeks ago he finally got around to loading the footage and that's when we discovered the dropouts. There were several on two tapes from his camera and one on tape from my camera.

As far as we can tell, all the tapes that had dropouts came from one box. He had bought 4 or 5 of the 5-box sets. I don't know if they all came from a single case of if maybe one box came from a different shipment.

Neither of us has had any dropouts on any of the AMQ tapes purchased before or since that shoot. I've shot maybe up to 20 tapes since then with zero problems. However, now I've become gunshy about the AMQ tapes. Before my next shoot I'm going to switch to the pricier Sony tapes, the ones that are about $14 from B&H...I don't recall the numbers offhand. Almost double the price, but tape is still the cheapest thing on a shoot. I didn't start using the AMQ tapes because they were cheap--I thought they were the best because lots of people were using them with no problems.

When the dropouts occurred, the other guy's camera was new but the head cleaning tape had been used. He had shot only 4 or 5 tapes beforehand. All the dropouts happened during interviews, in clean environments, and neither camera had been shooting out in any dusty areas beforehand (although we did later).

Just to be clear, I was not really trying to get anyone or everyone to use cheap tapes. The point I was trying to push was cleaning your camera and keeping it clean. There have been so many posts here saying how bad it is for your camera to clean it. The word "sandpaper" has been used at least dozen times (search for it and see)! The longer you wait to clean the heads the more stuff builds up on it and the harder it is to clean it off. Just think of other things in your life that you have to clean like windows, your oven, shower doors etc.. The longer you wait to clean them the more work it is and the harder you have to scrub. Pretty soon that 10 second cleaning won't do the job anymore and the camera must be sent to the "cleaners."

There is one other thing that I do, as well as many others, that may help. I always fast forward the tape to the end and then rewind to put even tension on it. Correct tension against the heads is also important and if it is not right it can also cause a drop out.

One last thing, some individual cameras react differently to one brand of tape or another. With my JVC HDV camera I used JVC tapes, no problem. When I got my first XL1s I tried to use those same tapes and had problems. I cleaned and cleaned the heads, but to no avail. I was ready to throw a fit, thinking it was bad and that I would have to send it in for repair, when I stuck in a Sony tape and tried it. The Sony tape worked fine and I never had another problem with the camera. In fact, it is still in use by my brother who shoots weddings with it. That was four years ago.

So, keep your camera clean and use the best tape you can afford. If you still have problems, clean your camera again. If the problem persists, try changing tape brands.

Best of luck to all---Mike

First of all, thanks for all the responses, guys. I really appreciate the help.

I plan on switching tape brands to the Sony HDVs you guys have been mentioning. As it is, I've sent one of my XH-A1s off to the Canon repair center already, so I will update you if they come back with anything. The one I sent was having the least amount of problems, so if they happen to find something I'll definitely know to send the other in as well.

So weird though... I hope it only turns out to be a tape issue. But better safe than sorry.

i have only used sony premium tapes since i started with hdv[sony cams]i do get the odd drop out one or so per tape on average,sometimes the drop out is only a playback one,recorded ones are there for good but i edit them out.i know some say they use premiums and have no drop outs but i have not been that lucky.

Chris when you say "premium" are you talking about the DVM-60PRL? That is what I have been using and one or two dropouts per tape is exactly what I've experienced. Just trying to narrow it down here...

i do not think that cleaning tape is like paper sanding, but the result could be the same.
Head clogging is a slow process. So using a cleaning tape (and later than sooner) could suddenly restore your head in a good status but with the result that some tape recorded with an half clogged head could not play anymore as well as expected. That could be the origin of this urban legend that cleaning head could be sometime a bad idea.

Chris when you say "premium" are you talking about the DVM-60PRL? That is what I have been using and one or two dropouts per tape is exactly what I've experienced. Just trying to narrow it down here...

premiums are dvm60PR3 IN THE UK benjamin.

Thanks. Looks like basically the same grade of tape.

Hey guys, sorry to ressurect this long dead thread, but I got my camera back and thought I would share.

Essentially, they claim they fixed something, but all they mentioned were basic adjustments were made to the video tape housing, or something to that effect. I haven't had a chance to mess with the camera since I received it back, but since they claim they did make some adjustments, I feel it necessary to send in the other XH-A1 that was having more severe drop out issues.

Anyways, I'm still at a loss for what's going on. I don't know if I should stick to AMQs or move on to the more expensive Sony HDV tapes at this point. I guess I will wait and see what they say about the second camera repair.

I'm sorry to tell that I have no good experiences with Sony HDV tapes.
This is from another thread:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=780491&postcount=23

Bw
Sven

When I bought my XH-A1 on friday, Brian from Zotz told me that the
Panasonic DVM series tapes are the ONLY tapes that should be used with this camera because they use a dry lubricant that will not clog heads or transports.

Most other brands use some form of wet lubricant which, according to Brian, WILL cause dropouts and clogs.


Brian's exact words to me were, "if you use nothing but the DVM tapes and use the head cleaning tape every now and then, you should never have a problem with dropouts.

mike

I am having a similar problem, but what I don't understand is that it doesn't seem to be an actual dropout on the tape. I say this because I can go back and capture the portion that froze during capture and it will capture just fine. This is with Panasonic AMQ tapes and has only started happening in the last few months.

Mike, if you are able to recapture the footage afterwards what you are experiencing is a capture dropout, and not an actual tape drop out.

An actual tape drop out will occur during normal playback and is permanently on the tape.

A capture drop out can be caused by a number of reasons and is usually fixable. I found that before when capturing to a Firewire drive linked to the same bus that the XH-A1 was it can cause problems, and apparently this is common with Canon Camcorders. However, if you attempt to capture again, as you said, the dropped frame is typically still there.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong as I'm still feeling my way through HDV, but that's been my experience.

I must be honest, I'm a bit relieved by that post about the Sony Tapes because I was dreading having to spend that much on tapes. I know the irony of that statement- $3500 camera and using cheaper tapes- but when you read the specs on the AMQs and the Sony HDVs it doesn't appear that there is much difference between the two. Has anyone tried out what Panasonic refers to as their HDV tapes?

I've been using the Panasonic AMQ 63 minute tapes for some time. I probably shot more than 30 tapes and never had a dropout...

...until recently. I helped shoot a documentary with another guy who also has XH A1. We had serious dropouts on 5 different tapes, shot with both cameras.

Then I had no dropouts, until one day there was another one.

These tapes are about half the price of the Sony Digital Master tapes, but I believe I'm going to try those. I can't live with this level of dropouts. At first I thought they were all from a single batch purchased at the same time, but the last one wasn't. Heads on both cameras were cleaned, shooting in good, clean conditions.

The Canon tapes probably are the Sony DM tapes, since the box looks the same, except for the color. I guess they could be Fuji or Panasonic too, who knows.

in relation this, I know I'm asking the right bunch.
When you run the tape cleaner through the tape for the ten seconds or so
is it with the play button? what about the record button? does that clean a different part of the heads? I rememebr years ago with the old reel to reel there were different heads for different jobs. is that the way these machines work?
apologies for straying a little.

Most other brands use some form of wet lubricant which, according to Brian, WILL cause dropouts and clogs.

Actually it's Sony who is all wet. :) reads funny.

Bill

Ger--nononono--absolutely do NOT press the Record button with a head cleaning tape. Only Play it for 10 seconds or less. Follow the directions exactly.

well spotted Bill :D

Bill, Im using a sony head cleaner with panasonic tapes, am i doing damage?

Actually it's Sony who is all wet. :) reads funny.

Bill

Along with this...All Pani tapes use the same type of lubricant, from the cheapy's to the AMQ's. And the same goes for other brands of tape too. (JVC, Sony, etc.) Sony's are wet lube, JVC dry, but a different dry than the Pani tapes. So pick a brand and stick with it or you're just asking for trouble.

No, the Sony head cleaning tape is fine. As far as I know they're all about the same.

WRT dropouts seeming to come from "a box or batch of tapes". I had an issue with my A1 and I believe it started after a use of the camera when it was warmer than usual. Not hot enough to do any damage (maybe 100 degrees F). I was getting dropouts on play/capture in *different* spots each time. Pointed to a camera issue.

I was worried about over-cleaning doing damage, but after talking to Canon I did 3 15-second cleanings (waiting a few minutes between each) and the issue resolved.

So . . . think back to your usage when you saw the dropouts. Had you been shooting in warmer conditions?

No, mine happened all in air conditioned offices. They all seemed to be in the same batch of tape that was purchased at one time.

I've had two A-1's since february, both have 1-2 drop outs per tape, started with the Panasonic, swithched to Sony after cleaning several times, no different with the Sony HDV tapes, about $9.00 each. until I here that the $14.00 fixes things I'd rather have the $4.50 per drop out instead of $7.00...MY question, is if it's the format, how are the sony cameras doing FX etc. with this problem....Never had one drop out in DV with canon Gl's and sony DSR's in eight years....Gary

I'm going to try the Sony DM tapes; they're closer to 15 bucks each, unfortunately.

Again, sorry to resurrect, but things got more interesting. Sent my second XH-A1 to Canon and had it back in about a week. I checked the paper work and they said they replaced the drum. I was a bit surprised because I sent in another for the very same playback problems and drop frames and they didn't claim to replace any parts. At any rate, ever since getting it back, I noticed that when the tape compartment ejects or when I insert a tape it's considerably louder than my other XH-A1. At first it almost seemed like it was grinding or something, but that seemed to stop after about 4-5 times. I'm gonna call the service center today when I get off work to discuss exactly what it was they did and if this is within spec. Any of you guys with two of these things notice if they make different sounds when opening and closing? I've never been around two of the same camera before...

On the drum issue.
This problem seems like a tape manufacturing problem...not a component problem. I wonder if the Cannon techs, in their frustration, are trying to keep a good name by trying to replace parts to keep happy customers.

Here is something I noticed with my first drop out tape, which I'll throw out to see if there is anything to be done to recapture the tape another way.

When I played my tapes (on play >) the drop out occurs for up to 3 secs...a significant clip. But when I played on fast forward it seems the footage is all there. Why, if the problem is a group of pictures (which is 3 frames at 1/60 or 3/60 of a second...does it take 3 seconds for the camera to recover and play again with time. Again...in FF play...the footage seemed smooth and not choppy. If the breaks were 3 seconds long it should have appeared fast and choppy...not fast and smooth.

So, is there any other methods to capture a tape without using a camera that looks for and processing the time code before playing?

What about tape decks?

Are there any work around to by-pass the cameras inability to have to read time code?

Surely there must be a way to get all the good footage off this tape. Any ideas.

I don't know how you can tell anything from FF. First it's all very low rez, & running FF even though it's a long 3 secs (any dropout I've ever encountered was, at the most... 1 sec.) will zip by.

If you have the patience, try to step thorough frame by frame. If you can... then there's always the option of saving 90 (there's your 3 secs) still frames on a SD card for import into your NLE :) Of course then there's the audio issue, but at least you'd have the video portion. Just a thought.

Bill

That's the thing, without a tape in there it still makes the grinding noise. And it's not just that, the tape compartment itself has a noticeably louder motor noise when loading and ejecting tapes when compared to my second XH-A1.

I have to mention this to anyone that might one day have to deal with Canon phone support. I know some of you have had a wonderful experience with them, but I must say that as far as I am concerned, they have some of the absolute worst phone support agents I've ever talked to. I had to talk to no less than 5 people on the phone last night before I was finally told that the camera needs to come back in and that it shouldn't be making the noise I'm hearing. I know they have a lot of products at this place, but come on, give the front line support at least some information. If I have to call them again, I will refuse to speak to them and ask for a supervisor.

Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest. Basically what I was told is that with the drum assembly replaced and the grinding noise being made, it's possible the drum wasn't seated properly. They did however provide a complimentary label for the repair, which was nice. But the epic mess this has turned into has soured my opinion of Canon a bit.

And as for the comment of replacing parts just for the sake of saying something has been repaired/replaced- I really hope that's not the case. If it's operating within spec, just say a couple of dropped frames now and then is normal and leave it be. I work in the computer support field, and I wouldn't dare replace a whole hard drive if a customer was having a virus issue.

Thanks for listening to me vent, now berate me for sullying Canon Support's name lol.