I have all three and was curious I know a lot of you are about these, I have a braceket that can easily house two next to each other, I will see if I can adapt all three, but in any event comparing two side by side on pans or what would you be most interested in seeing?

Let me know if you have anything specific that you think is a good test and which two incase I can't get all three linked on one mount to do real duplicate moves, would you want to see compared at what settings?

I am thinking the hg10 vs the hv20 is the best comparison, we kind of know the advantages of the larger cameras, but these two are close.

I personally have a xlh1, xha1, which I use mainly the xha1 (I like the form and size on my steadicam setup and on my dolly and crane over that of the xlh1) and I have a hv20 I use as a capture deck and was using as a little scouting camera, I realized the ability to just shoot to harddrive or any solid state (without having to bring a firestore with me, which is just too bulky to carry all over with camera just incase) was going to give me a freedom to just shoot things for no reason other than I can, so I picked up the hg10 and since they are all here I figured I would ask what people would like to see in a file comparison.

Hi Stephen,

Les Dit and I each have an HG10, but no HV20, and we've been wanting to compare 24p output from the two. Particularly panning motion. Lots of reviews have stated that the HG10 stutters unacceptably during 24p filming, particularly with panning. Les and I have both experimented a bit and figured out how to get (what we think is) clean output from the HG10 .MTS files, but we don't have any HV20 output to compare.

If you can, get them both going with the same settings, pointed at the same subject, and record some footage in 24p while moving side to side. About 5 - 10 seconds should be enough. If you can upload it somehow, that'd be great, I'll download and take a look at them with my method (manual pulldown removal using Windows Media Encoder) and Les can do it his way (Cineform HD Link) and we'll see how they compare. If you can do that analysis yourself, that's cool too.

Thanks for offering up the comparo.

mike@slavis.com

Stephen,
Sorry, slightly OT!
I'm planning a trip to Morrocco and am in 2 minds whether to take my XHA1 or buy an HV20. I'm looking for broadcast quality results and wonder if the smaller cam is up to the job. I'm aware that the smaller cameras do not have XLR outputs and that i may have to capture some audio separately, but will the camera shoot broadcast doco quality images?
I'm also interested in the new panasonic AVCHD camcorders that i've read great things about. Anyone know how these square up against the HV20?

i think for SD doc stuff the hv20 in the right light would be more than adequate, but from the shooting i've done with the a1 it is much better in low light situations. i've been shooting a fair amount of 2 cam setups lately using the hv20 and the a1 and here is a sample of the last thing i did.


here is a dvd image that you can mount and play, or burn directly to a dvd and play back in a regular dvd player. this will give you a nice perspective on how it looks on a regular tv. (all the close ups/side shots/broll shots were done with the a1, and the wide shot was the hv20-which i occasionally zoomed in post)

also of note i ran the main out of the mixer at the club into the hv20 via a 1/4" TRS to 1/8" headphone cable (the sound has been remixed because the sound guy did a horrible job)

http://file.meyersproduction.com/msm/msm%20suffer%20red%20eyed%20fly.img

here's a web version, check out the large version:

http://gallery.mac.com/aatawm#100084

check out my other hv20 stuff here(the caddo stuff is the best IMO):

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hv20

Hey Austin, this Caddo stuff is great. really enjoyed getting them up on my 23' ACD. Will burn a DVD later. The out of the box look of the A1 is quite dull as you'll know. I've been using Steven Dempseys vivd RGD preset and the way the colors pop on this stuff remind me of that. I'm still interested in the Panasonic ACV options but since i don't currently have a capture deck for 25p stuff from the A1 the HV20 makes a lot of sense.

BTW. Beautiful place you live.Nice Dogs too.

Not a simple answer, depends on what you consider broadcast standards, the a1 is better with less light, with enough (which is not that much really) light the HV20 and a1 look equal in terms of sharpness and detail with the hv20 more contrasty and vivid in color, out of the camera the hv20 looks better, and blows away a dvx100b footage in every situation I saw them together (all with adequate light, but at the inrease in resolution the hv could have had a noise reduction and been reduced in half and still be larger in size than a dvx) So if you will be shooting in daylight, or lit environments than teh hv20 is complete adequate. Shooting in cinema mode seems to be darker and flatter and desaturated and need more post work, but from what I hear its better for preserving dynamic range.

Now for the test, shoud the hg10 and hv20 both be 24P and standard or cinema? or does it matter? Personally I feel cinema is making post work for no reason on a test like this, but I may be missing something so let me know which you would prefer and also any other variables you would like to see matched I may not think of. I was thinking of putting them side by side and shooting a pan in a park and maybe a street of cars driving by, not that interesting but seems what people have wanted to see before. Let me know if thats OK or something else would be better, today and tom are suppose to be raining so Sunday I will run out and all goes well monday the footage will be up.

I freelance with a HVX and it has taught me to hate tape. Too much time, waste and clutter- but I use a HV20 for family home movie stuff.

Well, I just picked up a HG10 in the hopes of replacing my HV20.
After reading all the negative comments- I just had to see for myself.
The camera shop gave me 15 day to return it- so- nothing to lose.
I set up both cameras- same settings- and ran a simple side by side test.
I shot the same scene- same conditions, motion, etc.
I was very concerned with the 24p issue.
I made sure to set the cameras to TV and shutter to 48.
I then captured the material through a Black Magic HD extreme card into FCS2. I captured at DVCpro 1080i 59.94.
The footage from both cameras plays back without any issue.
The footage from both cameras looks near identical.
The footage from the HV20 looks a tad sharper and with a tad bit more saturation (this was very slight)
the 24p motion from both cameras was also near identical.
The HG10 had more noticeable motion trail- (again very slight- so slight I hesitate to even mention it. I really had to study it to see a difference.

IMO- I must be honest and report the HV20 as the better camera by a hair.
But no where near enough to dismiss the HG10. It's really a non-issue.
If the HV20 is a 10 then the HG10 is a 9
I'm thrilled with the HG10. It works for me.
No more unmarked tapes cluttering up my work station.
Too bad it's getting such a bad rap. It doesn't deserve it.
I also like how the HG10 is built vs the HV20. It weighs more- which gives it some heft. And it allows for a better grip. To me: The HV20 has always felt like plastic toy.
It all comes down to how bad you want to move away from tape.

Stephen,
Thanks for offering this test, it would be great to see if the strobing is real or imaginary.

I agree that it should be 'standard mode'. You can then set the shutter speed to 1/48 or my favorite, 1/24 second speed. I believe cinema mode lets the shutter speed float, thereby invalidating the test. BTW I also believe that cinema mode is simply a gamma change, and the blackest blacks and whitest whites are the same in both modes.

Also, Please make sure the stabilize is off, we don't want that jittering or stabilizing random frames on each camera.

Setting the Zoom on both cameras to a long setting will allow you to get very close framings on the same subject matter, reducing parallax issues.
I would do some pans, even some shaky camera work to see if that trips anything up. The worst case for AVHDC might be a shaky shot of a tree, framing nothing but the leaves ( lots of tiny detail to cause the codec a headache ;) )

I think there are a LOT of HG10 lurkers that are very interested in this test. Maybe even some HV20 owners who are assuming the HG10 makes bad 24p.

After the test, I volunteer to render the video side by side and publish the sample twin view video, if you don't have time to do that.


-Les



Now for the test, shoud the hg10 and hv20 both be 24P and standard or cinema? or does it matter? Personally I feel cinema is making post work for no reason on a test like this, but I may be missing something so let me know which you would prefer and also any other variables you would like to see matched I may not think of. I was thinking of putting them side by side and shooting a pan in a park and maybe a street of cars driving by, not that interesting but seems what people have wanted to see before. Let me know if thats OK or something else would be better, today and tom are suppose to be raining so Sunday I will run out and all goes well monday the footage will be up.

Stephen, I'm very interested in your test. I'm leaving the country soon and I had completely ruled out the HG10 and was just about to buy another HV20. Anxious to see your results. I hope the HG10's 24p is terrible because I've just gotten comfortable with the HV20. Your test will definetely influence my decision. Thanks for working on it.

I enjoyed reading your test I just have my HG10 and it's working great for my needs. I never wanted to deal with tape always hated VCRs also I love my Canon digital still cameras. So when the new Canon HG10 was offered I jumped on it.

try this link, if they do not work, I will have to mail or fedex them to someone on dvd as they are large and having upload issues, or I could do whatever is needed and put them up processed, or I could just retry putting them up again if they do not work.

http://www.plasticmagonline.com/HVHGTEST

Stephen, I'm very interested in your test. I'm leaving the country soon and I had completely ruled out the HG10 and was just about to buy another HV20. Anxious to see your results. I hope the HG10's 24p is terrible because I've just gotten comfortable with the HV20. Your test will definetely influence my decision. Thanks for working on it.

I like the HV20 because it has zebras and crop markers the hg10 only markers for grid or horizon. And I am not sure it has a focus magnify and peak, have to check that, the hv20 does.

Matt-
The 24p on the HG10 is not terrible- its more or less identical to the HV20.
I have both cameras. I prefer the HG10.
Read my post above.

try this link, if they do not work, I will have to mail or fedex them to someone on dvd as they are large and having upload issues...

http://www.plasticmagonline.com/HVHGTESTThanks Stephen -- if your server gets hit too hard for your taste, let me know and I'll be happy to host your files right here on DV Info Net.

Hopefully this will put an end to the nonsense perpetuated by misinformed / unscrupulous sources elsewhere on the web about 24p on the Canon HG10.

Randolph:

When you did the side by side at 24p, two questions:

1. Did you capture moderately fast pans across a stationary view?

2. How did you remove pulldown and in what NLE?

Yes I did a fast pan.
I imported the footage as DVCpro 1080i 59.94 through a Black Magic capture card.

And how did you remove pulldown to achieve 24progressive?

thaks, its not a bandidth issue its an upload issue they are having an issue going up, at 120megs a piece.


I can say that the hg10 is very similar in quality and end result with a smaller filesize but the workflow is a bit more than the hv20 and as far as an actual use for a main (i don't use these for any real shooting, I have a large collection of larger cameras for that) I would prefer the hv20 for the features like zebras, and crop marks for standard 4:3 , and a few little features that I prefer which make it more like the xha1/xlh1 in actual use. As far as having instant access and the ability to friviously shoot and see footage without regard for capture time, tape use, catalogging headaches and sheer "I will use it more beause its free" I feel the hg10 or other harddrive or flash card equivalent should be in the hands of everyone who wants to experiment and learn through shooting and playing.

I have long been saying that in my career as a photographer, digital has made the largest jump in my learning because it allowed me the feeling of freedom to shoot anything for no reason other than I can at basically no cost and if its crap I just delete, where as shooting film always made me prethink more and possibly decide its not worth the time and waist of taking it, a harddrive or any solidstate camera in video is the same, not the expense of tape, but the whole workflow of capturing, labeling and archiving a tape with 35 miutes of crap shots of experimental nothing mixed in with maybe 15 minutes of stuff you may want to keep just makes it not as practical, Whats on the label? I laundry list of shots? or do you offload to computer than reload to tape which is again a time headache when there are others things I would rather be doing, so for that the HD/solid state cameras are worth more than their pricetag.

I'm not sure what you're asking in regards to "remove pulldown for 24p"
I shot the footage using the 24p setting. It has the 24p "look".
I didn't know I needed to remove it. why? Footage looks perfect.

From what I understand- video frame pulldown is something you do for a film transfer- yes?
Maybe I'm wrong but, I can't imagine anyone shooting on these cameras needing to do that.
If you're just looking to shoot home movies that don't look like video- this camera does that as well as the HV20.

To get true 24p, and not 24p over 60, you need to remove pulldown.

Otherwise it is 24p in a 60i stream.

I'm not sure what you're asking in regards to "remove pulldown for 24p" I shot the footage using the 24p setting. It has the 24p "look". I didn't know I needed to remove it. why? Footage looks perfect.

From what I understand- video frame pulldown is something you do for a film transfer- yes? Maybe I'm wrong but, I can't imagine anyone shooting on these cameras needing to do that. If you're just looking to shoot home movies that don't look like video- this camera does that as well as the HV20.
The way I understand it, telecined video may -- or may not, depending on how good your TV is -- appear good on a TV set, which is supposed to handle this stuff properly. Still, real 24p is preferred for demonstration on a computer and for true 24p timeline in an NLE. Also, true 24p video usually have smaller file size.

When one creates video from multiple pieces, which is usually the case, then editing in true 24p timeline means that you edit video consisting of full frames. If one edits in a telecined mode, then the cadence hiccups will occur at the join points, and a TV set (or an outboard deinterlacer) will have to lock onto the 3:2 cadence every time the scene is changed. Which may or may not be visible.

I have the Silicon Optix test disk and I can see how my TV and my DVD player lock onto the 3:2 cadence, it takes about a second to either (heck, I had better opinion about my OPPO DVD player) and because of the nature of the scene (race car with stands on the background) it is VERY noticeable. I am Ok with my TV locking once at the beginning of a movie, but I would not like it locking every time a scene is changed.

Therefore, editing in true 24p and then exporting to DVD either as true 24p or in telecined fashion is preferable. Telecining the whole movie ensures that there are no cadence hiccups. A DVD can be mastered in true 24p. Thus, if you have cheap/old DVD player or a TV set, the player would telecine in realtime, but if your TV accepts 24p and is able of 72Hz refresh rate, and the player can output 24p, then the resulting video will be smoother.

My footage looks nice and smooth in the current timeline- but I'm going to export it to a Native 24p timeline and see what happens. I've always been led to believe- if you're not going to film- just keep the 24p footage in a 30i timeline. But I guess if your going to produce a progressive DVD for a progressive television- a progressive timeline makes sense.
I'm not that concerned- I'm happy with the results I'm getting.

As a side note- I used the HG10 last night on the streets of Manhattan and man does this little camera shine. I was shooting under street lamps and the footage looks incredible- colors are very nice- even the audio was better than I expected. I'm addicted to shooting with this camera- Fits in my coat pocket with ease- I do wish stock lens was wider- but I'm so happy- no more tape.

Did you see any patterns of noise in the deep shadows in these night scenes ?
My HG10 has non moving ( fixed pattern noise ) in these types of scenes.
You pan , but the pattern remains in the same screen location, like a dirty monitor.
1/24 sec exposure.24p
Just wondering.
-Les



As a side note- I used the HG10 last night on the streets of Manhattan and man does this little camera shine. I was shooting under street lamps and the footage looks incredible- colors are very nice- even the audio was better than I expected. I'm addicted to shooting with this camera- Fits in my coat pocket with ease- I do wish stock lens was wider- but I'm so happy- no more tape.

yes- I do get some noise in the black on low light scenes.
I assume that's the nature of the beast. My HVX shows noise in blacks in low light and that's a "pro" camera that cost 6 times as much.
For a camera as small as the HG10- and no tape- it's an OK trade off.
In bright sunlight- this camera looks best.