Yep, if you have FCP2 that's about the most straightforward workflow.

JESDeinterlacer is a free tool that can also detect the cadence breaks and properly deinterlace, as well.

Once it is recorded to tape, though, even if you go out the HDMI port, it has been mangled. This only works for "live" capture.

? ... What do you mean by this, Les?

I'm able to recover pristine 24p from the interlaced HDV stream...

Sorry, I didn't mean that the 24P was mangled, just that the image quality was. (macroblocking, 4:2:0 color resolution, high-pass frequency filter, etc.)

Oh, yes. I'm sure the HDMI looks amazing!

Ben - could you find out the pricing plans for the dvMatte Pro MacWorld release?

As the cat is out of the bag as to the forthcoming new version, it certainly makes sense to outline whether this is a free upgrade, if purchases after the announcement (as of now) are price protected, etc.

Else, new sales tend to dry up.

Also - one question. I often do keying in Photoshop for still photos.

Could dvMatte Pro be used to strip out the background of a green screen photo - so that I could get it back into a format where I could edit it in Photoshop without loss of resolution? There are lots of Photoshop users who use FCP. Might be able to get some sales for you on some of the photography forums I visit.

Thanks!

Les,

You're talking sales, which is definitely not my game. But I'm sure dvGarage can clear up some of your questions.

I can tell you for sure:

- It won't be a free upgrade, but there will be an upgrade path if you have a previous dvmatte. dvGarage treats past (and future) customers very well, so just drop them a note if you have a question.

- The release is getting close, so you should be able to buy now and get a complimentary upgrade by dvGarage when we ship. But email them to be sure, and that way they'll know in advance. Their goal is to make sure you're satisfied!

- The reason we're delaying the release is so that Alex can spend more time on the training which will come with dvmatte. I think it will really be worth the wait.

Regarding Photoshop... I have a stealth plan for getting into Photoshop. But I've said too much already. :)

Ben - great news about Photoshop. I'd be happy if I could just import a PSD into Final Cut, clear the background there, and then output back into PSD or some format Photoshop can read - but it sounds like you have something else in mind. Maybe just include instructions for keying an image from Photoshop and outputting back to photoshop (I use Windows XP, not a Mac for Photoshop).

I recorded 24p thru HDMI live from HV20 without problems. I'm sure you already do this, but please detect (or allow a setting for) 4:2:2 colorspace - as direct HDMI capture seems to be catching on. If you do a few examples with this, I'd have to believe the results would look better than HDV. Even if the potential user's primary use will be HDV, just seeing something that looks better from a consumer camera such as the HV20 might be a selling tool?

When will a watermarked trial of the new dvMatte Pro be available? That is what I really need to make my decision.

Thanks!

Les,

There's no good way to autodetect chroma fidelity, unfortunately. Besides, you'll want control over exactly how much chroma smoothing you want. The default settings look good for 4:2:2, but you can bring the default smoothing level down a few notches without seeing hard edges...

If you have access to a greenscreen, could you post stills from it in HDV and HDMI? I've actually never seen HV20 footage through HDMI. So far, HDV seems to be doing a good job -- the 4:2:0 is not a big deal, and I don't see a lot of compression artifacts. I'm curious to see what the benefits might be with HDMI!

And yes, we'll have a watermarked demo!

look here:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=679748&postcount=5

HDV vs HDMI is just like night and day. I use HDMI output not only for greenscreen work, but for every indoor and outdoor shot as well.
The reason is: HDV footage looks like out-of-focus comparing to clean & crisp hdmi capture. So, if you've never used hdmi out, you've actually never really tasted HV20 -))

How do you use it for exterior shots? Lug the whole computer outside?

Thanks for the link! Interesting... The HDMI definitely has more resolution. Though I think I would take the hit in resolution when recording in the field... It's worth it to not be tethered.

However, it's a different story in the greenscreen studio. If you have a computer capable of taking the Intensity card and you do lots of greenscreen, it's easily worth the $250.

I am impressed with how well the HDV holds up, though. Brightly colored details do better with HDMI, but that's to be expected. For most greenscreen subjects, the biggest hit you'll take by using HDV over HDMI is the loss of a little resolution. The 4:2:0 vs 4:2:2 is not a big deal, and your edges should look similar.

BTW, this is with about 5 minutes of fiddling with dvmatte -- the results could be improved by spending a little more time with it. Also, having a shot of just the greenscreen without the subject would let me do a screen correction pass, which would make this shot look about a million times better. And I didn't bother trying to protect the almost-green ironing board, which would be keyable if the greenscreen wasn't so dark and blue...

Ben, great results!!!

Well, I still think an uncompressed version looks better (edges are cleaner, without 4.2.0 "jadges"). A main problem, at least for me, is pulling a good key out from hairs "on a wind". In my opinion, that kind of problem lies not in compression algorithms, but rather in not-so-perfect camera resolution (compared to F950, Viper or film negatives). What do you think, Ben - is it possible to create a good matte from medium and long shots of subgects with thin hairs?

And yes, I use HV20+Intensity for all exterior shots (a pair of 5kW generators, lots of lights, cables, monitors etc.. he-he, computer is such a small thing among all that stuff.. -))) Anyway, I'm wating for this amazing device from Cineform team: http://www.cineform.com/products/CineFormRecorder.htm

Ben - did Anton's images give you what you need for HDV to HDMI comparison?

I'm mucking around with light levels and want to have it all set up correctly before I post anything.

Trying to find the most optimum level for the HV20 (someone said 2000 lux was best level for HV20, but I need to confirm this somewhere).

And, the best level for green screen (I've got 2 dedicated fluorescents for the screen, 3 for the 'talent'.

All my light metering with a Sekonic has been for strobes, so I'm having to learn how to use it for video.

BTW - do we have to wait for MacWorld to try a demo version of the new dvMatt Pro?

Anton - do you have any tips for setting up the HV20 for best results thru HDMI?

What light level gives optimum results with the HV20's image sensor and lens?

What do you think, Ben - is it possible to create a good matte from medium and long shots of subgects with thin hairs?

Definitely! Of course, if you can zoom in or move the camera closer, it's always better, since you're utilizing more of the sensor. You can then shrink the subject to fit the frame. Of course, this doesn't help you if you need to have a figure walk from one side of the frame to another or something like that...

But whatever detail is captured in the shot can be reproduced. Getting a screen correction plate (just the greenscreen, no subject) is very important. Without it, you have to choose between detailed edges and uneven lighting on your screen corrupting the background...

BTW, the 4:2:0 "jaggies" are my fault -- I didn't sufficiently smooth the chroma channels in that shot...

Ben - did Anton's images give you what you need for HDV to HDMI comparison?

Yeah, as I briefly mentioned, the HDMI shows an improvement, but it's not a quantum leap. Definitely worth doing if you have the resources (mostly for the small resolution boost), but it shouldn't keep you from shooting tape when you need to.

As for lighting: forget about Lux... And footcandles... And any objective measure of light for that matter. What you really want to pay attention to is the subjective reading of the HV20 -- use the photo button trick to get to the f-stop you want, and a shutter speed of 1/48th (assuming 24p). It's fine to shoot wide open, for example f/1.8 @ 1/48. If you can't get there, add light.

Hopefully you can monitor your set live, using scopes. The most critical thing is to get the lighting even, so pay attention to your RGB parade. You want the screen to be at 70% RGB (about 180/255, or somewhere around 70 IRE). That will give your screen some "headroom" to reproduce highlights.

I have some Rosco Chroma Green gels on order -- they clip everything but a big spike in the green frequencies of light. I'm eager to test them as greenscreen lights... They should give a much greener screen, regardless of the material...

Good luck!

Getting a screen correction plate (just the greenscreen, no subject) is very important. Without it, you have to choose between detailed edges and uneven lighting on your screen corrupting the background...
What a beautiful idea! I've never tried it before (stupid me).
As far as I understand I should create a matte from greenscreen room, and then apply it as a 'background' to my key comp.
I'll definitely try it next time. I cherish a hope those ugly semi-transparent blinking hairs of models will be clearly visible. Thanks, Ben!

Les,
HV-20 is very hungry for light, I hate HV20's noise in shadow areas.
But don't overdo with lighting. You could use something like Adobe OnLocation to control an amount of light in realtime.
For greenscreen work, my background is lit 2 stops less than a foreground object (bg: 65-70% RGB)

What a beautiful idea! I've never tried it before (stupid me).
As far as I understand I should create a matte from greenscreen room, and then apply it as a 'background' to my key comp.

Sort of -- your keying software needs to be able to incorporate the "clean plate" in its process. In dvmatte, it's a separate plugin. You apply the screen correction plugin (Screenfix) to your greenscreen footage, and then feed it a still (or movie) of just the screen, with no subject. Then you choose the color of the screen you want to equalize to. Screenfix then nukes your entire screen to that color, while retaining all edge detail.

You then have a totally even shot, and can pass this right into dvmatte. The results can be insanely good!

For greenscreen work, my background is lit 2 stops less than a foreground object (bg: 65-70% RGB)

In my last post I mentioned wanting to be at 70% RGB -- I should have been more specific. What you really want is to be at:
R: 0% G: 70% B: 0%

In fact, 80% may be a better target unless you have tons of highlight detail (read: blonde hair) to deal with.

The shot that I used to compare HDV and HDMI had a widely ranging background, with a midpoint somewhere around:
R: 24% G: 65% B: 38%

...which means that there's only an average of around 34% difference between the green channel and the R&B channels. The more we can increase this distance, the better, because more difference translates directly to more subtle edges and lower the noise in our matte.

This is where I think the Rosco Chroma Green gels will be really helpful, by knocking down the R&B output of your screen lights so that your screen has no choice but to bounce green light back to you. You'll never get to 0% in R&B, but you should feel proud if you can get to:
R: 10% G: 70-80% B: 10%

If you can get that level pretty evenly across your screen, you should be able to make a simply incredible composite.

Ben - please post your findings when your green filters arrive.

I had thought of green filters also, but got negative feedback on the FCP forum (saying only needed if background is white) and would end up with more green spill.

But, it sure sounds like a great idea to me.

As to the "clean plate" - this is part of the workflow of dvMatte Pro?

I was hoping a watermarked version of the new release would get posted, so that I could try it out. Never hurts to have more feedback before going 'live' with a new release.

I had thought of green filters also, but got negative feedback on the FCP forum (saying only needed if background is white) and would end up with more green spill.

If there's more green spill, it will only be because the screen is greener! The greenscreen lights should always be flagged off and kept from directly hitting the back of your subject. It's also good to keep some distance between your subject and the screen, and be conscious of reflections... If your subject is holding a shiny metallic object and it reflects a pure green from the screen, you'll be stuck making a traveling matte for that area....

As to the "clean plate" - this is part of the workflow of dvMatte Pro?
It's part of the ideal workflow. I know that most people won't do it, but those that do will come away with incomparably better composites.

I was hoping a watermarked version of the new release would get posted, so that I could try it out. Never hurts to have more feedback before going 'live' with a new release.
Unfortunately, the beta cycle is over, but I will let you know the second we release the demo! :)

BTW, I posted the results of my gel testing on the following thread:
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=784330

Bottom line: gels rule! I'll never again shoot greenscreen without them!

Ben - here's a single frame recorded with HV20 thru HDMI live 24p to ProRes 422 HQ (reverse telecined using compressor as outlined in http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306389).

I'm the subject, and am curious how the blond hair can be masked from the green screen with your new tool. I understand blond and green is tough.

http://www.downloadfundraiser.com/m/singleFrame24p.mov

Thanks!

Les, blonde hair is extreeemely tough -- the whole new version was basically created to solve that one problem!

Here's what I could get from your shot. This would be assuming that you had a good screen correction plate. I hacked one together in Photoshop.

The result is not bad at all to my eyes! But it would be greatly improved by a brighter screen...

Ben - that looks great!

But, are you saying the green screen was not bright enough and you had to work on it in photoshop?

I was hoping to see what the results would look like using just the new dvMatte Pro.

If it would be useful, I could iron the green screen, turn up the lights (got to re-read this thread on setting the proper levels) and post a small clip with some motion in it.

BTW - I also did a Photoshop export of that frame from FCP. When I opened it in Photoshop (on a Windows XP box), it did not have an embedded profile.

Is there a way to assign one within FCP?

If not, what profile should I assign, maybe Apple RGB?

I'm also going to have to get my head around how to deal with the shift from Apple's gamma to the more universal gamma found on the PC.

No, I'm just saying I had to hack together a fake screen correction image. It's just an empty shot of the greenscreen with no subject, but everything else set the same as the main shot. With software, you can correct the background to be more even if you have a screen correction shot. I've attached the image that I cooked up.

I took that and the image you posted and ran it through dvmatte pro, so what you're seeing is direct output from FCP.

BTW, you probably don't want a color profile associated with your stills. HD is essentially sRGB, and so is your XP box, so even without a profile in PS, you should be seeing accurate colors. Profiles tend to confuse people anyway, so I only recommend you use them when you're dealing with images that have very wide or different colorspaces such as Adobe RGB.

If you have a PC, don't sweat the difference between Apple gamma (1.8) and PC gamma (2.2). FCP handles the gamma conversion behind the scenes. If you want to be extra faithful, you can apply the sRGB profile to frame grabs from FCP in PS, when you're on your Mac. That way PS will know to darken the frame up a bit for viewing. Again, not needed on a PC.

Make sense? Or just more confusing? :)

Ben - ah, I understand. So as long as the camera is stationary (probably a good assumption for non-star wars filming - the screen correction image can help to get a better mask.

As to color profiles, I'm used to working with RAW still images and doing the editing in Adobe RGB with a convertion to sRGB to output for the web.

I don't have Photoshop installed in the Mac, I suppose I will.

But, you seem to be saying that I can assign a profile of sRGB (on the PC) if I open a grab created from FCP on the Mac.

As for the gamma, if I open the sRGB labeled PS file on the PC, you seem to say that I don't have to worry about gamma?

I'm going to have to deal with similar issues (on gamma) when outputting Flash using Squeeze. I'll probably do that on the Mac as it Squeeze will eat ProRes 422 HQ on the Mac, but doesn't know what to do with it on the PC.

BTW - saw that Sorensen just added H.264 to Squeeze. Have to see if any advantages over Compressor.

Cheers!

Ben - ah, I understand. So as long as the camera is stationary (probably a good assumption for non-star wars filming - the screen correction image can help to get a better mask.
Exactly.


But, you seem to be saying that I can assign a profile of sRGB (on the PC) if I open a grab created from FCP on the Mac.

Yup!


As for the gamma, if I open the sRGB labeled PS file on the PC, you seem to say that I don't have to worry about gamma?

Nope!


I'm going to have to deal with similar issues (on gamma) when outputting Flash using Squeeze.
The issue is: who do you target? Mac users or PC users? If PC users, you'll do nothing to the gamma. If Mac users, you'll want to decrease the gamma by 0.4. Unfortunately, neither platform is smart enough to understand the source colorspace and compensate accordingly. :P

Ben - it sounds like if my main market is web viewed on Windows, I should adjust the gamma of my Mac monitors to follow the Windows gamma? Does that sound reasonable?

Now if I can just figure a way to calibrate my hdmi output from FCP to 24" Samsung 245T (rather neat monitor, hdmi, dvi, rgb, s-video inputs).

I forgot to figure how I was going to calibrate the hdmi input, as my GretagMacbeth Eye One Display has no desktop or mouse on that monitor when receiving output from FCP thru hdmi.

Always something!

Les, FCP will adjust the gamma automatically to 2.2 while you're editing. What I'm unsure of in whether Compressor will apply that gamma when you output. I don't believe it does, but I could be wrong... In that case, you'll want to adjust the gamma when outputting using Compressor.

Hi Ben
Other than the obvious ( green ) what color and type of clothing should I tell the talent looks best for keying.Look forward to getting your new software as will doing much green screen in the near future.
Thanks, Aldo

Ben - will the new version of dvMatte Pro work in Motion? Thanks!

As far as the whole gamma issue (PC/Mac), I have found a solution... Well, at least a reliable way to display.

The new flash player can display H.264 movies. I have embedded a .m4v and .mov that look spot on (as far as gamma)... across all platforms and browsers.

The only downside, the player update is very new, so not everyone has it yet... but they will.

Aldo, most colors should be fine. Anything in the green range will get obviously get desaturated... You may want to be careful with yellow as well -- it might be best to shoot some tests if you need to protect yellow.

Les, the new version does indeed work in Motion (2.0 and up) and FCP (5.1.2 and up)!

Scott -- good to know! Thanks for letting us know what you wound up doing.

Ben - I gather the video tutorials are the hang-up for the release of dvMatte Pro 3.

Any chance on posting a quick demo from the creator using:
http://www.ambrosiasw.com/utilities/snapzprox/

showing the proper use of the plug-in along with Screenfix, etc?

BTW - this thead is missing messages posted after Dec 22.

Les,

The tutorials are the delay. I posted it to the main forum, but it got bounced off. The talent is ill, so until that person recuperates, they're holding off the launch. DVGarage is a small company, and you can only launch a product once (in theory). Being sick is no fun, so hopefully they get better soon.
Best, Anthony Torres
(fwiw-I called for the straight scoop.)

Hey guys,

Yeah, Alex has been sick, and then I had some problems ensuring the demo versions would work in FCP 5... I did record screencasts for the beta test, and those might find their way online as well, I'm not sure. Regardless, I'll be recording some screencasts once we launch to show people some more advanced techniques.

Stay tuned!

quick question... I have dvMatte blast, is it more efficient to use in final cut or motion... or does it not matter.

When I say efficient, I guess I mean quicker. Seems like it takes a while to render in FCP, but I have not done much testing in motion. (waiting on my new mac pro to ship)

Any insight would be great.

Ben - I use ProRes 422 HQ. I've just realized that ProRes has no alpha channel, which kind of blew me away.

What is the best workflow to move between FCP and Motion, letting each do what it does best? Almost all of my clips will be green screen.

I bought a BlackMagic Intensity Card to capture HDMI output from my Canon HV20 whilst recording green screen footage

I have a Mac Pro with Final Cut Studio2 and planned on capturing to ProRes422

What codec would you recommend? I would prefer one that I don't have to pay for.

Ocean Zen - If you were asking the question of me, I've been recording in ProRes with no issues, but I'm trying to come up with a workflow to go back and forth between FCP and Motion.

I don't think filters make the trip, so stripping out the background in a 1st step and generating a new file seems to make sense.

But then, I'm very new at this and was hoping someone with more experience would chime in.

Maybe FCP7 (sometime this year??) will add another ProRes codec - or Apple could add this to Quicktime anytime they wanted for more power.

Or - maybe a CineForm solution is the way to go?
http://www.cineform.com/products/CineFormRecorder.htm

Les, you should be able to roundtrip between FCP and Motion without rendering, so codecs shouldn't come into play.

Ocean Zen -- ideally, capture to Blackmagic's uncompressed codec. You payed for the card, so you might as well get true uncompressed footage from it! :)

True uncompressed footage would be a bit too big for my hard drives.

BlackMagic say I have these options codec-wise

Intensity supports many of the advanced Final Cut Pro™ features such as 10 bit rendering, RT Extreme™, and support for ProRes 422, HDV, JPEG, DV, DV50, DV100, 8 & 10 bit uncompressed media types.

Does DV100 have an alpha channel? - Is ProRes422 really not suitable for green-screen?

I just don't know what codec to use.
Thanks for your help guys

Ocean Zen - I think Ben is saying that ProRes will work fine. Just don't render until finished.

Filters don't make it into motion from FCP, but I think Motion filters make it back into FCP, so possibly the green screen filtering and many filters should be done in Motion?

So basic editing of clips in FCP, then Motion magic with roundtrip back to FCP if necessary, then render to ProRes where it doesn't matter if there is no alpha channel (for final rendered file).

Regarding Photoshop... I have a stealth plan for getting into Photoshop. But I've said too much already. :)

Ben - With the release of dvMatte Pro (hopefully) this Wed, could you elaborate here or by personal email (You should have mine unless I got caught in your spam filter - or I can receive them on this forum).

BTW - maybe I'm the only one that made this mistake, but if anyone is using two monitors with Motion, you halve the available VRAM and drastically reduce the speed and capabilities of Motion. I found that if I set my monitors to 'mirror' - this 'fixes' the problem - and I can easily switch back to non-mirrored for normal use.

There is zero difference quality-wise between using dvmatte in FCP vs Motion. So unless you have a more complex composite, you can just stay in FCP. When roundtripping FCP -> Motion -> FCP, there is no rendering, so codecs do not come into play. FCP basically opens the Motion project within FCP and renders it there.

If you need to output a movie with an alpha for going to a totally different suite like CS3, then you need to choose a codec with alpha support. ProRes obviously won't work, besides which, you don't need 10 bit for HV20 footage. A better option is the Animation codec at high quality with keyframes every 10 frames. I believe at that setting, it is lossless. However, those files will be quite large. You really only need to do this for FX shots you're passing to AE, Shake, etc, for which you also need to maintain the alpha. It shouldn't come into play within Final Cut Studio.

It's Jan 30, noon EST. I hope dvMattePro 3 goes live today!
If not, when's the true ETA?

Best, Anthony Torres
Patiently Waiting...

Ben - when recording 24p for green screen, would I be better off setting as high of a shutter speed as possible (making sure the gain doesn't kick in)?

It would seem logical to me that with less motion blurring, your software could work more efficiently?

I know you've advised to turn

Sharpness -1, and Contrast -1, Color -1.

Using the flash memory half-press photo button, I think I can figure out where I'm getting the proper shutter and f-stop without any gain (if I'm correct, I can do this no matter which mode I'm in).

Do you have any preferences shooting in (Tv/Av) mode or CINE mode in a studio with controlled lighting?

And if using CINE - any interesting FCP filter settings to bring out the HV20's full glory?

BTW - congratulations on getting your new software out today!

Alas, today's not the day. Maybe tomorrow...

Or maybe post a "secret" link so we can know the specs/cost before the videos are posted and the site is accurate? That'd be awesome!

Ben - when recording 24p for green screen, would I be better off setting as high of a shutter speed as possible (making sure the gain doesn't kick in)?
No, just shoot normally. Motion blur is not much of an issue with this new version.

Do you have any preferences shooting in (Tv/Av) mode or CINE mode in a studio with controlled lighting?
Conventional wisdom says to shoot 24p at 1/48th, which mimics the 180° shutter on a film camera. How you get there is up to you. Personally, I like the look of the Cine mode, but that's subjective. dvmatte definitely doesn't care. :)

And if using CINE - any interesting FCP filter settings to bring out the HV20's full glory?

BTW - congratulations on getting your new software out today!
Thanks! Filter-wise, I do all of my color grading in Conduit. I like having full control and realtime feedback. "Color" is interesting, but I wrote most of the nodes in Conduit, so I have a better idea what's actually happening to my images in Conduit vs Color. :)

I've posted up some green screen clips i shot using the IOHD with numerous color/contrast etc settings. check it out:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=113509

also does anyone have any thoughts on the intensity card vs the IOHD as far as quality differences? is the prores capture from the IOHD via HDMi going to be the same as the intensity?

Ben,

The corrector plate idea intrigues me greatly, but I'm not sure I quite understand how it works. You shoot just the screen, then you shoot the action against the screen. The "software" uses the "blank" screen - how exactly?

And have you any idea whether I could use it in either Liquid 7.2 or Commotion Pro?