I'm not holding my breath either. I am planning to buy an HP XW8400 today, since it is the last day for a particular deal. I am buying dual 5150s, with the plan to upgrade to 5400s once they become widely available, if I find myself needing the quad horsepower.

Make sure that HP delivers a mobo with the Seaburg chipset (5400X) and with DDR2-800 FBDIMM's, otherwise you may end up with another costly upgrade when you decide to upgrade to 54xx CPU's.

Since the Nvidia 8 series GPUs are out of the question, I'll take to my new machine the 7800GT + one new card.

Could I get some recommendations for the other card.

Priorities are:

1. Full screen preview available with Prospect & CS3.
2. Render speed improvements in Magic Bullet.
3. Price approx. $300 or less.
4. HDCP support.

I'm looking at the 7600GT, which is nice and cheap or the Quadro FX 570, but I don't know what the benefit of it is.

Make sure that HP delivers a mobo with the Seaburg chipset (5400X) and with DDR2-800 FBDIMM's, otherwise you may end up with another costly upgrade when you decide to upgrade to 54xx CPU's.

Someone posted to my site today to report that they couldn't get a new 5400 series CPU to work in their XW8400, but the presumption was that a BIOS update could be expected to fix that. I still have not purchased one yet, they were out of the one I wanted, but I still plan to get one before the end of the year. I am trying to find a refurbished one with 5300 CPUs, so that I won't have to worry about trading up in the future, but they are hard to come by. I am aware that the new 1600FSB will not work with the XW8400, but I could still get up to a 3.0Ghz model with the 1333FSB if desired.

As far as GPUs, the 7600GT should be cheap. Get one and try it. If you don't like it, keep it as a spare and try another one. It is hard to predict how certain combinations will work together, and if you are going to be experimenting, it makes sense to try for the cheaper solutions first.

As far as GPUs, the 7600GT should be cheap. Get one and try it. If you don't like it, keep it as a spare and try another one. It is hard to predict how certain combinations will work together, and if you are going to be experimenting, it makes sense to try for the cheaper solutions first.

Think I'll do that.

Also, is there a 3.00GHz quad xeon in the 53xx series? I can't find one higher that 2.66GHz. The only 3.00GHz I can find is in the 54xx series, which isn't available over here yet...

Also, just spoke to another guy who's doing a quote for me and he said I was insane for looking at the Xeons. He said if I could see a performance increase in 8 cores of Xeon over the Core 2 Extreme QX6850 3.00GHz he'd give me the computer!

He also told me that CS3 wouldn't even use the 8 cores and that the 8800GT may have the full screen preview re-enabled, unlike other 8 series Nvidia cards.

So he just confused me and I don't know what to make of his opinions...

Also, is there a 3.00GHz quad xeon in the 53xx series? I can't find one higher that 2.66GHz. The only 3.00GHz I can find is in the 54xx series, which isn't available over here yet...


It is the X5365, introduced in august.

Also, just spoke to another guy who's doing a quote for me and he said I was insane for looking at the Xeons. He said if I could see a performance increase in 8 cores of Xeon over the Core 2 Extreme QX6850 3.00GHz he'd give me the computer!

He also told me that CS3 wouldn't even use the 8 cores and that the 8800GT may have the full screen preview re-enabled, unlike other 8 series Nvidia cards.

So he just confused me and I don't know what to make of his opinions...

I would take him up on his word. It may save you significantly on expenses! I just tested a two E5345 CPU Supermicro system with both Edius and Premiere Pro CS3 and while rendering or exporting/encoding to MPEG2-DVD, all 8 cores were used in both applications. Tested with ProcExp running. The difference between these applications is in the memory footprint, Edius is clearly less hungry for memory.

The nVidia 8800GT/512 is around € 200 over here and delivers far better performance than the 8600 GTS/256, which runs around € 150.

Think I'll do that.

Also, is there a 3.00GHz quad xeon in the 53xx series? I can't find one higher that 2.66GHz. The only 3.00GHz I can find is in the 54xx series, which isn't available over here yet...

Also, just spoke to another guy who's doing a quote for me and he said I was insane for looking at the Xeons. He said if I could see a performance increase in 8 cores of Xeon over the Core 2 Extreme QX6850 3.00GHz he'd give me the computer!

He also told me that CS3 wouldn't even use the 8 cores and that the 8800GT may have the full screen preview re-enabled, unlike other 8 series Nvidia cards.

So he just confused me and I don't know what to make of his opinions...

That guy doesn't seem to know what we is talking about. There are tons of tests you could run to prove that the Xeon system is faster, provided you had the systems to test with. Any complex comp in AE with Render Multiple Frames on will see improvement. PPro will see improvement in HD exports in Native mode, and should also see improvement in CineformRT mode but I am not certain on that. There are no indications that the 8800GT re-enabled overlay. If so I am sure we would have heard about it from all of the excited owners. There probably are workarounds with old drivers and XP, but that is of limited use.
As I said before, Core2Quad will probably be SUFFICIENT, but Dual Xeons will be FASTER. The only legitimate question is, is the increased speed worth the significantly increased cost?

The Xeon 5365 is thechip that Apple has been using in its 8core Macs since April. It is available from a number of distributors in the US, hopefully you can find one down there.

It is the X5365, introduced in august.

Found it! It's $1,500 AU, whereas the new 45nm equivalent is just under $1200!!

PPro will see improvement [with xeons] in HD exports in Native mode, and should also see improvement in CineformRT mode but I am not certain on that.

RT mode? Real time you mean? If so, how can it be improved upon real time?

There are no indications that the 8800GT re-enabled overlay. If so I am sure we would have heard about it from all of the excited owners. There probably are workarounds with old drivers and XP, but that is of limited use. I don't want to mess around with workarounds - that's why I want a super-duper computer, so that I never have to fiddle under the hood or mess with drivers or have trouble with footage not playing or blah blah blah...

I haven't had a week with my PC without troubleshooting. I'm hoping that goes away with this new one.

As I said before, Core2Quad will probably be SUFFICIENT, but Dual Xeons will be FASTER. The only legitimate question is, is the increased speed worth the significantly increased cost? At this stage, my quotes vary in price by about $1700 but I may be able to reduce the Xeon system by $700 in which case I'll definitely get it. The Intel S5000XVNSATAR motherboard supports the 65nm chipsets as well as the 45nm ones, so I'll be able to upgrade in the future. I may even wait a month for the 45nm 3.00GHz processor because it's not that much more expensive than the 65nm 2.66GHz one!

The nVidia 8800GT/512 is around € 200 over here and delivers far better performance than the 8600 GTS/256, which runs around € 150.

But I thought that CS3 and Prospect HD don't use the GPU so it doesn't matter, right? Though I think it was Mike who said that a good GPU would help with Magic Bullet one way or another.

I'm now looking at the 7950, which is HDCP compliant and would still have full screen video enabled.

Either that or it's go with an ATI or Quadro card...

Also, the board he reocmmended for the Core 2 Extreme system is the Intel DX38BT. (http://www.intel.com/products/motherboard/DX38BT/index.htm) which apparently does not have Hyper Threading enabled according to the site on the link. I don't know what that is, though someome told me I should have it.

Is that board better than something like the ASUS Striker Extreme or some of the more common gamer boards?

John,

I know that $ 200 here and $ 200 there soon adds up to real money, but at this moment the nVidia 8800 GT gives the best bang-for-the-buck. Whether you will see any performance increase with the current NLE's is doubtful. At most it is marginal. For that reason you could easily opt for a nVidia 79xx series and save some, but if you intend to use the system for several years or do 3d animations for instance, you may well benefit from the more advanced capabilities of the 8800 GT.

Hyperthreading is no longer available on the Core family. It has been abandoned.

Good to hear that the 45nm release resulted in lower prices somewhere.

Xeons could improve realtime by supprting more layers and effects, etc.

The 8800GT is unquestionably a faster card, but that capability comes at the expense of overlay compatibility.

Stay tuned for hyperthreading to be re-introduced to the new archetecture next year Nov, as well as CPU integrated memory controllers, like AMD. Regardless, I wouldn't sweat it at the moment, rumors and vapor-ware for now.

the nVidia 8800 GT gives the best bang-for-the-buck. but I can't do full screen preview to my nice big 24" monitor with it. So it's out of the question unfortunately.

Good to hear that the 45nm release resulted in lower prices somewhere.

It's interesting - some retailers are saying that they'll be more expensive but don't have prices, some are saying the opposite, but the only actual prices I can find have them cheaper.

Have a look at this comparison of the 5355 which is the one in my system quote and the 4530:

http://www.techbuy.com.au/compare.asp?Compare_77868=77868&Compare_68923=68923

Am I missing something here? These two CPUs are equivalents aren't they? 65nm vs 45nm and the 45nm one only about 60% of the price??

John,

Just comparing prices quoted, I would have no doubt choosing the Harpertown. Even if prices were equal, I would still choose Harpertown because of the larger L2 cache, SSE4 extensions, lower TDP and further optimizations. The E5430 is quoted by Intel as having a price of $ 455, so in AUS$ this seems like a fair price. Keep in mind that one is passive and the other active, so there is a slight difference in price (normally less than $15) but check the correct one for your mobo. For instance the SuperMicro chassis I have been talking about require passive version for the air shroud to work.

For comparison the quotes I got in the Netherlands for the X5355 are around € 680, the X5365 around € 1020 and the X5472 around € 960. Prices are inclusive of 19% sales tax.

Wow, I though Sales Tax was high here.

I have been finding these lower prices the last few days. This is what I was expecting to see happen, but had seen no evidence of it taking place during the first few weeks after the "launch."

This is why I have been waiting. I will be a lot more confident once I see them in stock somewhere, but things are looking up.

I will be a lot more confident once I see them in stock somewhere, but things are looking up.

Me too. I am right in assuming that the 54xx series CPUs are the 45nm ones, right?

All the retailers list them as being 65nm still.

Maybe I'm just way off...

And what's going on here exactly:

5450 vs 5450 (http://www.techbuy.com.au/compare.asp?Compare_77872=77872&Compare_77874=77874)

Why do they have the same specs and model numbers but different prices?

I have seen the same thing happen over here. Usually it is caused by the fact that they use different sources/suppliers to get the same goods. If purchase prices differ amongst different suppliers you can benefit, but also noteworthy is that the cheaper offers are almost always out of stock, whereas the pricier ones are often in stock.

Intels that start with 5xxx are Xeons, the second number is indicative of the chip generation, 1 for Woodcrest, 3 for Clovertown and 4 for Harpertown. The last one is a member of the Penryn generation, 45 nm technology. The prefix E or X is indicative of the TDP, for instance the E5472 and X5472 have a respective TDP of 80 W and 120 W but for the rest do not differ, apart from price.

Intels that start with 5xxx are Xeons... 4 for Harpertown. The last one is a member of the Penryn generation, 45 nm technology.

So all 54xx are 45nm PCUs? Becuase the web sites are listing them as 65nm... weird. It's so frustrating not being able to get expert advice from retailers. The help that you two guys have been giving me is enormous and invaluable, whereas most people over here - the very people who will end up building the machine - have been relatively useless...

The prefix E or X is indicative of the TDP, for instance the E5472 and X5472 have a respective TDP of 80 W and 120 W but for the rest do not differ, apart from price.

TDP?? I assume it has something to do with power usage. It's probably not a big deal right?

TDP relates to heat generated (Thermal Dissipation Something or other). There are 5 series of LGA771 Xeons:

5000 series: Dempsey, dual Netburst cores, less efficient, 3.73Ghz max
5100 series: Woodcrest dual core, 3.0Ghz max, 65nm, June06
5200 series: Wolfdale Core, dual core, up to 3.4Ghz, 45nm, Nov07
5300 series: Clovertown quad core, 2 Woodcrests, 3.0Ghz max, 65nm, Nov06
5400 series: Harpertown quad core, 2 Wolfdales, 3.2Ghz max, 45nm, Nov07

5400 should be faster and cheaper than 5300 at a given clock speed due to the 45nm process, its called progress. Same with the 5200s over the 5100s. The 5000 series exists on a different scale since it is PentiumD based unstead of Core2 based architecture.

5400 series: Harpertown quad core, 2 Wolfdales, 3.2Ghz max, 45nm

I've decided that (if I go with Xeons) I'll definitely get dual X5450s at 3.00GHz each. However the motherboards that have been recommended to me I'm not so certain about.

Looking at them online I can't see any evidence of them supporting the 45nm chips, nor that they even support quad core cpus.

Intel S5000VSASASR (http://www.intel.com/design/servers/boards/s5000VSA/index.htm)
Intel S5000XVNSATAR (http://www.intel.com/design/servers/boards/s5000XVN/index.htm)

I'm way too confused about the motherboards. I'm pretty sure one of you guys said the VSA was ok in an earlier reply (I'll check in a sec) but I can't remember. I'm starting to tear my hair out...

This is what you said, Mike, about the VSA MB:

That MB is a server board, a similar but 'Workstation' class board might be a better fit. Any reason why that one in particular was selected?

Could you suggest a more appropriate workstation board that definitely fits the 45nm quad cores?

Also, you said this:

A faster video card WILL help for MagicBullet, at least that is what I am told.

Can you elaborate here? Does Magic Bullet utilise the GPU to increase rendering speed?

And if so, am I better off with:
1. Dual Quadros
2. Quadro + my 7800
3. my 7800 + a 7600

I'm not prepared to pay big for a GPU because I will not use it for gaming and I'll probably never do 3D work (unless Magic Bullet is 3D but I don't think so).

So if I did get a Quadro (or two) I'd only get cheap ones - can you advise me on this as well?

Thanks so much again!!

John,

On the motherboard, I would have a serious look at the one I mentioned earlier, the SuperMicro X7DWA-N, which supports the 5400 CPU series and uses the 5400X Seaburg chipset. That is a workstation mobo, not a server one. It is the latest upgrade from the Greencreek X chipset.

I will respond later on your graphics question.

Just wanted to let everyone know that I finally got all my parts and got the system put together. I did change a few things along the way. I started to worry about noise on the Supermicro chassis. I instead opted for a Coolermaster Cosmos chassis which is still a very large chassis like the Supermicro but is also supposed to be very quiet. Has a lot of sound insulation in it. For a power supply I chose the FSP Group Everest 1010 1000 watt power supply. For the video card I went with the 8800 GTX as opposed to the Ultra. The only other adjustment I had to make was the memory. In building the system I found that according to the board docs I couldn't use the 800 speed memory with the E5440 processor because it only has a 1333 FSB. According to the docs 800 speed memory is only supported by CPU's with a 1600 FSB. So I got the exact same spec memory in a 667 version. The only other "gotcha" I ran into was that unbelievably enough there are no Vista drivers for the Intel 82575EB ethernet controller integrated on this board. If someone can find them I'd love to have them. So to get connected on a network I found an old 3com 3c905 and stuck it in there.

So, what I finally ended up with are the specs I posted previously with the exception of the graphics card, memory, chassis, and power supply. I haven't seen anyone else post here that they've actually completed a system with the new 45nm Xeons and the X7DWA-N MB. As of late yesterday I actually have it built, up, and running. And yes, I've read the posts regarding Vista but I decided to stick with it anyway. Currently the system is clean with no software other than the OS, all the latest Microsoft updates from Windows Update, and the 3com driver for the NIC. I'll be anxious to see how this performs.

If anyone would like me to repost my total parts list and cost with the changes let me know and I'll be happy to dig through the receipts and repost the total build spec as I have it built.

[quote]When installing your software, make sure you have your BIOS settings correct especially the AHCI settings, and before installing Windows, install the drivers with F6. If that does not work, reset the BIOS to not use AHCI, let Windows install itself, then from Windows install the Supermicro drivers for AHCI, reboot and then reset your BIOS to use AHCI. That should take care of any installation problems.[\quote]

Harm, I just went back and reread this thread and your post I quoted above. I forgot all about this setting when I installed Vista. You say to install the drivers with F6. I assume you mean the AHCI drivers? Would these presumably be on the Supermicro disk with the MB? Or on the Vista install disk? You also say that if I don't do it on initial install to install the Supermicro drivers after the fact, reboot, then reset the BIOS to enable AHCI. The problem with this, and the other "gotcha" I forgot to mention, is that the the CD that comes with the Supermicro board isn't valid for the X7DWA-N. Yes, that's right, they're shipping an old CD that doesn't support the board. Inserting that CD will tell you something to the effect of "sorry, this CD only supports the following boards..."

So currently I have Vista installed and AHCI disabled in the BIOS.

Is this the solution?

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/922976

Travis,

I was thinking XPPro+SP2. When installing that, you have the F6 option. Not sure about Vista. I tried that on one machine and took it off at the earliest opportune moment.

You may have a look here for the most recent drivers: http://supermicro.com/support/resources/resource_drivers.cfm

John,

On the motherboard, I would have a serious look at the one I mentioned earlier, the SuperMicro X7DWA-N, which supports the 5400 CPU series and uses the 5400X Seaburg chipset. That is a workstation mobo, not a server one. It is the latest upgrade from the Greencreek X chipset.

I will respond later on your graphics question.

I agree that the Supermicro motherboards are more workstation oriented than any of the Intel ones. Especially in the 5400X chipset series.

The Geforce 7950 would probably be your ideal GPU card, all things considered. I recommend getting one, and if you find something you don't like about it, try again, but it should be fine for all of your needs.

I started to worry about noise on the Supermicro chassis. I instead opted for a Coolermaster Cosmos chassis which is still a very large chassis like the Supermicro but is also supposed to be very quiet. Has a lot of sound insulation in it.

Travis, does it keep everything cool enough? And how about the noise? My PC will be in the living room so I'm hoping it's not unbearably loud.

If anyone would like me to repost my total parts list and cost with the changes let me know and I'll be happy to dig through the receipts and repost the total build spec as I have it built.

I'd love to see it. I feel like I'm getting closer and closer to a final system spec and I like the idea of the case you chose to go with the Supermicro board.

I can't get that power supply over here so if I do end up with the (over $1,000AU) Supermicro board I'm going to have to investigate an alternative that meets Supermicro's specifications about connectors (none of which I really understand)...

My guy just got back to me with another alternative board, a Tyan described here:

Tyan i5000XT - $740.00 (http://www.scorptec.com.au/product/23215/).

What are your opinions of this one compared to the Supermicro?

EDIT: Here's the link to Tyan's web site about the board recommended to me. It does not mention 45nm compatability.

http://www.tyan.com/product_board_detail.aspx?pid=43S2696A2NRF

These ones do, and may be the right ones to go with. Of course, we can't get these over here yet so I can't assume anything about the prices so they may end up being the same price as the Supermicro board.

http://www.tyan.com/product_board_detail.aspx?pid=560
http://www.tyan.com/product_board_detail.aspx?pid=562
http://www.tyan.com/product_board_detail.aspx?pid=564

John,

The Tyan with PID562 looks pretty similar to the SuperMicro. From the 3 links you gave on the Tyan website, this one appealed the most to me because of the 8 FBDIMM sockets. The thing missing is on-board fire wire. but the location of the PCI slot makes it easy to add a simple PCI fire wire card. You have to take into consideration that the PCI-e 8x slot will be covered by the video card, if it is one of the 2 slot versions.

The most noteworthy difference is the maximum FSB, which in case of Tyan is limited to 1333 and is 1600 with the SuperMicro. Also the SuperMicro supports DDR2-800 and the Tyan only DDR2-667.

The board suggested to you by the dealer is based on the Greencreek chipset and does not support the Harpertown 45 nm CPU's. It is a previous generation mobo in comparison to the Seaburg based boards.

If you use the PC in your living room I would suggest you take a good look at the dimensions of the chassis. The SuperMicro SC743 TQ-865B is not very high, but very deep. The Coolermaster is higher, but less deep.

In terms of noise there are a couple of things to consider, SuperMicro has a relatively silent PS, has passive cooling of the CPU's and uses an air shroud to accomplish that. Coolermaster has no air shroud and requires active cooling of the CPU's. Also the PS may be a bit louder than the 'silent' version of the Supermicro.
A last remark, any case less deep than the Supermicro may give more difficult installation of expansion boards, less clean cabling and therefore lesser cooling, requiring higher fan speeds to keep temperatures in check and, most importantly IMO is the lack of hot swappable drive bays, which is so easy.

In an ideal situation you could compare the two options side by side in operation, but that is hardly achievable. Hope this helps.

John, here's what I finally ended up with.

Supermicro X7DWA-N $698
Coolermaster Cosmos 1000 chassis $190
FSP Group Everest 1010 watt PS $280
Soundblaster X-Fi Elite Pro $249
Kingston DVR667D2D8F5K2/2G memory (x2) $220
eVGA GeForce 8800GTX $550
Vantec EZ Swap MRK-200ST-BK (x3) $105
Intel Xeon E5440 $770
Areca ARC-1261ML $820
Areca battery backup $129
Areca ARC-1000 LCD $79
Areca 2GB Memory Upgrade $189
Seagate 500GB ST3500630NS (x8) $1199
Western Digital Raptor X 150GB $175
Sony BWU-200S Bluray burner $599
Dell 2707WFP Ultra Sharp $875
Windows Vista Business $280

Total $7486

The case itself and the fans included with the case are very quiet. The only noticeable noise comes from the fan included with the CPU. That CPU fan is definitely not quiet. I'm going to be looking for an aftermarket CPU fan to replace it but haven't gotten one yet.

Otherwise it seems to be a pretty good configuration. With the system drive in one of the Vantec trays I can just swap out OS's if I want. I use the other two vantec trays for the Seagate drives and the remaning 5 1/4" slot for the Areca LCD.

Harm, I was able to use the Microsoft article I linked to successfully switch to AHCI.

Harm is also right that the Coolermaster doesn't have the hot swappable drive bays. For me this really isn't an issue. The 6 internal drive bays are where I'm running the Seagates and can't see a need for swapping them unless one fails. When and if that happens I don't really mind shutting down the system, opening it up, and replacing the failed drive. And with the Vantec enclosure I have a quick swap of the system drives to change OS's anytime I like.

One other thing I'll mention if anyone is looking to install Vista on the X7DWA-N board: the integrated network controller is flat out incompatible with Vista. I couldn't figure out why I had such a hard time finding a driver until I found an intel document stating that 82575 NIC chipset is incompatible.

So I've now got it up and running, have Vista installed, have all the Windows Update updates installed, updated the intel chipset software from a download from Supermicro, and am now in the process of installing CS3.

Harm, I looked at the benchmark you wanted me to run. According to his site it doesn't work with CS3.

Travis,

The benchmark was updated by Bill, but most likely he did not yet have the opportunity to make it available on his site. He obviously has been very busy.

When he has it available and you run the test, you should not be surprised when you end up with the number 1 position with your system. This is one heck-of-a-system. Thanks for posting all the components and their current prices. This is very helpful for other people looking for a top-notch system.

Happy editing....

John,

The Tyan with PID562 looks pretty similar to the SuperMicro. From the 3 links you gave on the Tyan website, this one appealed the most to me because of the 8 FBDIMM sockets. The thing missing is on-board fire wire. but the location of the PCI slot makes it easy to add a simple PCI fire wire card. You have to take into consideration that the PCI-e 8x slot will be covered by the video card, if it is one of the 2 slot versions.

The most noteworthy difference is the maximum FSB, which in case of Tyan is limited to 1333 and is 1600 with the SuperMicro. Also the SuperMicro supports DDR2-800 and the Tyan only DDR2-667.

The board suggested to you by the dealer is based on the Greencreek chipset and does not support the Harpertown 45 nm CPU's. It is a previous generation mobo in comparison to the Seaburg based boards.

If you use the PC in your living room I would suggest you take a good look at the dimensions of the chassis. The SuperMicro SC743 TQ-865B is not very high, but very deep. The Coolermaster is higher, but less deep.

In terms of noise there are a couple of things to consider, SuperMicro has a relatively silent PS, has passive cooling of the CPU's and uses an air shroud to accomplish that. Coolermaster has no air shroud and requires active cooling of the CPU's. Also the PS may be a bit louder than the 'silent' version of the Supermicro.
A last remark, any case less deep than the Supermicro may give more difficult installation of expansion boards, less clean cabling and therefore lesser cooling, requiring higher fan speeds to keep temperatures in check and, most importantly IMO is the lack of hot swappable drive bays, which is so easy.

In an ideal situation you could compare the two options side by side in operation, but that is hardly achievable. Hope this helps.

The RAM and FSB differences are only an issue if you are planning to buy a top end Xeon CPU, which while clearly faster, is extremely expensive. I am hoping that the Greencreek 5000 chipset will support the new 5400 CPUs with a BIOS update. I know one person whom that is not yet working for. The 1333FSB and socket are the same. It should be similar to the BIOS updates needed for the Prescott Core or the Core2 release. I am planning to buy an XW8400 with cheap 5100 CPUs, and replace them with >2.00Ghz 5400 CPUs once they become widely available, assuming they get supported correctly for the older MBs.

Hi Travis,

Thanks so much! That's a huge help!

Can I ask a few questions:


Coolermaster Cosmos 1000 chassis $190

I'm seriously considering this case after I read the reviews. As much as Harm recommends the Supermicro case, I just can't see it as the right choice for me. Does this case have any difficulty fitting the large Supermicro board? Or did you get it in there without any hassles? How about heat? Do you think it will become an issue?

Vantec EZ Swap MRK-200ST-BK (x3) $105
With the system drive in one of the Vantec trays I can just swap out OS's if I want.

How? Can you explain this to me? I looked these things up after seeing this and the one thing about them that appealed to me was that it says "If you're worried about the Internet affecting your PC then just use one of these drives instead..."

I thought that sounded good but I don't understand it at all! How can that work? I assume it's a good solution for backing up? Also, can you explain to me where it fits in that case? In the front external bays? Or is it external? And if so, how does it plug in??

That CPU fan is definitely not quiet. I'm going to be looking for an aftermarket CPU fan to replace it but haven't gotten one yet.

I'd definitely be interested to hear your choice here as I will probably copy it!

So has anyone here had any luck getting a 5400CPU to work in a 5000 series board. The 5000p and 5000i Blackford chipsets are certified by Intel to work, but the 5000x Greencreek workstation chipset is never specifically listed, which is the basis of the xw8400 and Precision 490/690 workstation lines. I know one person is having issues with the xw8400 and a E5410. I was hoping other people had tried this.

There was plenty of room in the Cosmos case. I had no problems fitting everything in or with any of the expansion boards fitting. I've never actually seen the Supermicro chassis but the Cosmos is pretty darn big.

The Vantec is just a SATA enclosure that fits in one of the 5 1/4" drive bays. It uses a tray that has the drive in it which then just slides in. So to swap OS's I can just remove the system drive from the tray, pop in another drive with a different OS, then turn the system back on. I want to keep this machine "clean" without a lof of other software such as games. This way I could swap in another sytem drive with games or another OS.

The Vantec is just a SATA enclosure that fits in one of the 5 1/4" drive bays. It uses a tray that has the drive in it which then just slides in. So to swap OS's I can just remove the system drive from the tray, pop in another drive with a different OS, then turn the system back on. I want to keep this machine "clean" without a lof of other software such as games. This way I could swap in another sytem drive with games or another OS.

Me too! So when you swap OSs you don't need to re-attach cables or anything? Is that the idea of it - so that it is simply a matter of slide out the old one and slide in the new one? And it sort of clicks into place?

well if its money is no object.... then you need to check out the new Dell
work stations coming out soon... wow.... these are going to scream...

Check them out at Dell.com

goto workstations and they should be there for you to check out

well if its money is no object.... then you need to check out the new Dell
work stations coming out soon...

Hopefully soon... Maybe... And even so, overpriced. Putting together the custom system online is already more in US$ than I'm planning to spend in AU$, which says a lot about what the prices will be when those workstations come out over here.

The latest update from the people doing quotes for me is:

1. Only a 74GB Raptor system drive is necessary. Anything more than that is a waste. Opinions on this? Given that I really only will ever have Windows and Adobe Creative Suite on here, I guess it's probably true, right?

2. ATP (AP28K72S8BHE6S) 1GB FB-DIMM DDR2 667 RAM is the memory recommended to me (4 GB of it). Knowing zero about RAM, can someone advise me as to whether it's reputable?

3. Power Color ATI X1950 PCI-Ex 512MB DDR3 GPUs keep getting suggested to me as the cards to use instead of Nvidia. Reviews are fairly favourable but they're quite old so I thought I'd ask around.

4. People are telling me to ditch the 4 Samsung Spinpoint HDDs for the Seagate CUDA 500GB, 7200rpm, 16MB Cache, 3.0GB/s NCQ SATA II HDD.

They appear to have the same spec's but I remember reading here somewhere about Seagate HDDs being wonky when it comes to RAID - am I right? I asked some dealers about it and they said they knew nothing of any 'wonkiness'.

5. They keep telling me "Don't put this in your living room! It will be too loud!"

Is that a fact? Isn't that where some of the money is going on the Supermicro case & PSU? To keep the noise down? Travis says the Coolermaster case is quiet (except the CPU fans) but these dealers aren't too willing to build it with anything other than the Supermicro case... I'd much rather have the Coolermaster one though...

6. I've had it suggested to me to only purchase one of the 5450s now and wait a year or so to purchase a second (when they're substantially cheaper) which would sort of act as an upgrade path.

What are people's opinions of this? Is the system ok with only one CPU? And would it be ok in a year when I get a second brand new one running alongside a year old one?

For the Raptor, by necessary, do you mean size wise or speed wise? Either way it should be sufficient, but the 150GB version is advantagious in every way.

Related to RAM, but as a side note, have you considered a 64bit OS? Since you aren't using any hardware I/O (AJA, Matrox, etc.) it should be an option, and should increase performance and stability. I hear that it helps Premiere not slow down with long timelines.

I have an X1950, and it is fine.

It will be loud, if you want quiet, get a Core2Quad based system. No reason to only get one 5400 CPU. For dual CPUs, they need to be identical steppings, so a CPU bought next year may not work correctly.

Related to RAM, but as a side note, have you considered a 64bit OS? Since you aren't using any hardware I/O (AJA, Matrox, etc.) it should be an option, and should increase performance and stability. I hear that it helps Premiere not slow down with long timelines.

I have but have heard negatve things about 64bit + CS3. Am I wrong? What other steps do I need to take to get a 64bit O/S?

It will be loud, if you want quiet, get a Core2Quad based system.

I have been seriously considering "down-grading" to a Core2Extreme - the 6850. It would save me so much money that I keep telling myself that I'd be nuts not to get one of those. The system I have spec'd as a 6850 is almost half the price of the 8 core Xeon and like you say will probably be just fine.

Also, if I did get a 6850, could I still have a 64bit O/S? I don't really understand what it even is or what it means? Can you fill me in?

The biggest advantage of 64bit OS, is that you can use more than 4GB of RAM. The advantages are less dramatic when running 32bit apps, but it still doubles the max for PPro and AE from 2GB to 4GB, which is the limit for 32bit apps. Basically it is only worth upgrading to 64bit if you have 8GB of RAM, but that is only like $100 more these days. The reason I can't use 64bit is that Matrox and AJA don't have 64bit drivers for their hardware. 32bit Software is usually compatible with XP64, but all drivers need a dedicated 64bit version. Most of these are now available, and I here Premiere works well in 64bit, but BMD is the only company to provide 64hardware support. Core2 Quad is 64bit comaptible. All things considered Core2 Quad seems like a good fit for you. The 5400 CPU is the last series Intel will release before a major change to integrated memory controllers etc. My current Xeon is the last one before the switch to Core2 architecture and multicores. That fact is very limiting, compared to the difference between 5300 and 5400. This time next year there should be some dramatic changes taking place. If a Core2Quad system meets your needs for a year and a half, you will be well served by that investment.

I finally bit the bullet today and bought an XW8400 workstation. Dual 2.66Ghz Xeons, 10k RPM 146GB SAS drive, free monitor and 3yr warranty, off the HP refurbished site for $2000. I ordered 4GB RAM and 2TB of storage for it for another $700 from NewEgg. I chose 500GB Samsung SATA drives, based on reccommendations earlier in this thread, but I have never used them before. I already have an 8800GTX to put in it. I am considering getting an AXIO LE card for it, but I am not sure. I use both Matrox AXIO and AJA/Cineform at work, and haven't decided which way to go. The new 4K hype has me leaning towards Cineform, to allow me to online people's movies on my own system. Eith way, I plan to get an 8bay eSATA array for up to 8TB of storage (before RAID5) if I start a large project.

It isn't the fastest system in the world, but for about $3000, it will do anything I need for at least a year, until Intel's next release. A good midrange workstation, that should be certified for Adobe, AJA, Matrox, BMD, and even AVID, depending on my needs in future projects.

The biggest advantage of 64bit OS, is that you can use more than 4GB of RAM. The advantages are less dramatic when running 32bit apps, but it still doubles the max for PPro and AE from 2GB to 4GB, which is the limit for 32bit apps. Basically it is only worth upgrading to 64bit if you have 8GB of RAM, but that is only like $100 more these days.

Does it place any burden on the user? Am I going to be disadvantaged at all for having it?

All things considered Core2 Quad seems like a good fit for you.

I keep thinking that too, but if I was only going to get a quad core, I'd probably just sweat out my dual core for a while longer. Even though it dies every single day...

The 5400 CPU is the last series Intel will release before a major change to integrated memory controllers etc. My current Xeon is the last one before the switch to Core2 architecture and multicores.

By this do you mean that even if I buy a board to accommodate the 5400 Xeons, I'll need a different board if I ever upgrade in the future?

I finally bit the bullet today and bought an XW8400 workstation. Dual 2.66Ghz Xeons, 10k RPM 146GB SAS drive, free monitor and 3yr warranty, off the HP refurbished site for $2000. I ordered 4GB RAM and 2TB of storage for it for another $700 from NewEgg. I chose 500GB Samsung SATA drives, based on reccommendations earlier in this thread, but I have never used them before.

Regarding HDDs, are the Samsungs recommended for any reason other than being quieter? I'm sure I read somewhere that the Seagates were no good in a RAID config.? Is that a fact? Because some places can't supply me Samsung and they're saying there's no issues with the Seagate and it's just as good.

Another question: Is this PSU acceptable for the Supermicro board - the X7DWA-N?

Antec TPQ-1000 - 1000W TruePower Quattro ATX & EPS 12V Power
Supply, Modular Cables, Four 12V Rails, 80Plus Certified, 2x8-pin
PCI-E, 2x6-pin PCI-E

The Supermicro site specifies certain requirements of the PSU (in terms of connections and things) which I just don't understand. Is this one ok?

Does it place any burden on the user? Am I going to be disadvantaged at all for having it?

Certain issues may crop up, but 95% of the problems are related to lack of drivers support for old hardware, which shouldn't be an issue for a new system.

I keep thinking that too, but if I was only going to get a quad core, I'd probably just sweat out my dual core for a while longer. Even though it dies every single day...

Why? What dual core do you have?

By this do you mean that even if I buy a board to accommodate the 5400 Xeons, I'll need a different board if I ever upgrade in the future?

Yes, 5 series of Xeons have been used in the LGA771 socket. The next revision is expected to change the architecture to the point that a new socket and chipset will be required.

Regarding HDDs, are the Samsungs recommended for any reason other than being quieter? I'm sure I read somewhere that the Seagates were no good in a RAID config.? Is that a fact? Because some places can't supply me Samsung and they're saying there's no issues with the Seagate and it's just as good.

I have Seagate's in a 14 drive RAID, they are fine. I wanted to see if the Samsung quiet claims were true in my own system. Either should be fine for you.

Another question: Is this PSU acceptable for the Supermicro board - the X7DWA-N?

Antec TPQ-1000 - 1000W TruePower Quattro ATX & EPS 12V Power
Supply, Modular Cables, Four 12V Rails, 80Plus Certified, 2x8-pin
PCI-E, 2x6-pin PCI-E

The Supermicro site specifies certain requirements of the PSU (in terms of connections and things) which I just don't understand. Is this one ok?

No idea, hopefully someone else will know.

Based on connectors provided, yes, the Antec TPQ-1000 should be fine. I can't see any other reason it wouldn't work except possibly for dimensions.

Based on connectors provided, yes, the Antec TPQ-1000 should be fine. I can't see any other reason it wouldn't work except possibly for dimensions.

Really? I'm probably going to end up with the Coolermaster Cosmos like you did Travis, so is the bay for a PSU smaller than usual?

The dimensions on the Everest 1010 are 5.88"W X 3.38"H X 6.50"L. I BELIEVE that is the standard size for an ATX power supply. The width and height should be the same on any PSU. The depth is what can get you. I just popped the cover off the cosmos case. It looks like there's enough room that a power supply that was 2" deeper would still fit with no problems of crowding the wire connections.

The dimensions on the Everest 1010 are 5.88"W X 3.38"H X 6.50"L. I BELIEVE that is the standard size for an ATX power supply. The width and height should be the same on any PSU. The depth is what can get you. I just popped the cover off the cosmos case. It looks like there's enough room that a power supply that was 2" deeper would still fit with no problems of crowding the wire connections.

Awesome! Thanks a lot! All I have to do now is wait for the components to come out over here...

I'm going to end up building pretty much an identical system to you Travis, even with the dual system drives. It never occurred to me though that I'll need to purchase two copies of Windows though, won't I? Or are you allowed to use the same copy on both system drives?

I guess there's no way that anything I do on the other O/S (the gaming/internet/whatever) can have any impact on the system?


EDIT: Regarding the Hot Swappable System Drive:

The dealer told me it would cause problems - saying that every time I booted up I would have to change something in the BIOS. Is this the case for you Travis?

So he's recommending a Dual Boot System, where I would have two system drives permenantly installed with XP Pro on one drive and Vista on the other. Apparently, as the computer boots up, it will ask me if I want to go to Vista or XP Pro. Is that how it works? And is it a good idea? I'm worried about having both system drives in there at the same time.

My current computer is so infected with problems that I assume are Internet related that I want to make sure my new one goes nowhere near the Internet. Is a Dual Boot system safe? Will it be keeping my editing system drive safe and isolated from the Internet (and from the other system drive) or would it still be vulnerable? And also, are there any drawbacks to having a Dual Boot system?

Awesome! Thanks a lot! All I have to do now is wait for the components to come out over here...

I'm going to end up building pretty much an identical system to you Travis, even with the dual system drives. It never occurred to me though that I'll need to purchase two copies of Windows though, won't I? Or are you allowed to use the same copy on both system drives?

I guess there's no way that anything I do on the other O/S (the gaming/internet/whatever) can have any impact on the system?


EDIT: Regarding the Hot Swappable System Drive:

The dealer told me it would cause problems - saying that every time I booted up I would have to change something in the BIOS. Is this the case for you Travis?

So he's recommending a Dual Boot System, where I would have two system drives permenantly installed with XP Pro on one drive and Vista on the other. Apparently, as the computer boots up, it will ask me if I want to go to Vista or XP Pro. Is that how it works? And is it a good idea? I'm worried about having both system drives in there at the same time.

My current computer is so infected with problems that I assume are Internet related that I want to make sure my new one goes nowhere near the Internet. Is a Dual Boot system safe? Will it be keeping my editing system drive safe and isolated from the Internet (and from the other system drive) or would it still be vulnerable? And also, are there any drawbacks to having a Dual Boot system?

Physically swapping the boot drives will require no change in the BIOS, and will protect your editing drive from internet issues, if you unplug the internet when using that OS. The downside is that it is kind of cumbersome. I used to use the multiple OS partitions option, and it is easier and nicer, but eventually degenerates into problems if you make system changes. (You have been cheating the boot sector on the drives, and the changes aren't always well recieved) If you are planning to use multiple OSes, I will even more strongly recommend giving 64bit a try, especially XP. That way you have a32bit option to fall back on if something you need isn't 64bit compatible.

Physically swapping the boot drives will require no change in the BIOS The dealer told me the exact opposite, but perhaps because I said my other system drive wouldn't be a 10,000 rpm 74GB Raptor, just another 500GB Samsung. Would having the two different types of system drives be the reason something in the BIOS might need changing?

If not, should I ask them to take this route over having two permanently installed drives? I don't know which is the better/safer option.

The downside is that it is kind of cumbersome. I used to use the multiple OS partitions option, and it is easier and nicer, but eventually degenerates into problems if you make system changes. (You have been cheating the boot sector on the drives, and the changes aren't always well recieved)

I'm not sure what kind of "system changes" I'd be making, if any. Can you give me some examples?

If you are planning to use multiple OSes, I will even more strongly recommend giving 64bit a try, especially XP. That way you have a32bit option to fall back on if something you need isn't 64bit compatible.

So you recommend having XP 64bit but Vista Business 32bit? So that Vista can be the fall-back option? If I buy XP 64bit and I have problems, can I install the 32bit equivalent from the same disc or do I need to go out and buy another version? If I take this route, is there anything else I need to check to ensure will work with 64bit XP?

I'm not sure what kind of "system changes" I'd be making, if any. Can you give me some examples?


So you recommend having XP 64bit but Vista Business 32bit? So that Vista can be the fall-back option? If I buy XP 64bit and I have problems, can I install the 32bit equivalent from the same disc or do I need to go out and buy another version? If I take this route, is there anything else I need to check to ensure will work with 64bit XP?

System changes like going from XP64 to XP32 could mess up the "other" (Vista) install if you aren't VERY careful. The physical swapping is cleaner and easier, especially if you have a hotswap backplane. I had a system with the Supermicro case, with a Vista Beta install on one drive, and XP on the other. I disabled one of the bays, by removing the SATA cables, and stored which ever OS drive was unused in that bay.

Do you need Vista for any specific reason? You will someday, but currently many people are in the process or reverting to XP. I would recommend XP64 for editing, and XP32 for personal/internet/general use, based on what you have said.

System changes like going from XP64 to XP32 could mess up the "other" (Vista) install if you aren't VERY careful. I'd only need to do this if I had problems with the 64bit XP though right?

The physical swapping is cleaner and easier, especially if you have a hotswap backplane. so why would the guy have told me that it was difficult and would require BIOS changes every time I swapped them? I was hoping to do what Travis did and buy one of those Hot Swappable bays for the front of the Coolermaster Case and swap the system drive that way. Can you confirm that if I do end up doing that (against the advice of the builder) that I'd still be getting the full speed of the RAPTOR and the full 3GB/s over SATAII? The extra step through the drive bay doesn't slow things down?

EDIT:

Just read this: The Vantec EZ-Swap MRK200-ST-BK only comes in black, and it supports the Serial ATA I standard although Serial ATA II drives will function just fine in it at reduced maximum peak thoughput.

Doesn't that mean that I'm paying heaps for a RAPTOR and then slowing it back down??

Do you need Vista for any specific reason? You will someday, but currently many people are in the process or reverting to XP. I would recommend XP64 for editing, and XP32 for personal/internet/general use, based on what you have said. I don't need Vista by any means, but I can get it and Microsoft Office 2007 as a package for $33 because I'm a school teacher, which is too good to say no to really. But if it will be a bad idea then I'll just give it a miss.

So why then did the dealer/salesman/builder tell me that I'd need to alter the BIOS every time?

I've been reading about dual boot systems and it sounds like they can be a nightmare. It mentions how if you use XP and Vista or XP32 and XP64, the moment you boot with one of them it can change hardware settings that then cause conflicts with the other o/s. I wish computers were nicer to us... Is there likely to be conflicts caused by having 64bit and a 32bit XP systems?

It is not the 32vs64bit that causes the problem, having dual OSes causes problems when you make hardware changes even if they are both XP32. I reimage my systems every few months to keep them clean, and this is difficult and risky with dual boot.

Raptor 74GB is only SATA1 anyway, and it will never reach 150MB/s, let alone 300MB/s of SATAII. SATAII allows multiple drives to be connected via port multipliers. Currently that is the only way to utilize the bandwidth. 10k rpm is not for increased bandwidth, since a 1TB drive will win in that arena, but for lower laterncy and higher I/O counts. (Individual requests)

Using two different drive types is not ideal for the physical swap, using identical drives will be better for BIOS issues, although most systems will accept the change with no issues.