I just finished my first tests and I do like the look of 30p on the V1. I panned both slow and fast across a field on a very windy day with palm trees blowing and 30p yielded nice results - better than 24p and it stood up against 60i.
My final output will be DVD (in SD for now, with a promise by my distributor to buy BluRay DVD next year). I will also be on cable broadcast in 5 countries.

My question: Am I limiting myself by using 30p and what problems do I face by using Final Cut 6 (FCS2) as my only NLE?

Thank you for any help.

Hi there,

For one reason, you might be kicking yourself by using 30p : the NTSC to PAL conversion. I have heard more than once that the conversion can be really difficult from 30p to 25p.

Bear in mind that i haven t test this conversion personnaly so it might be working OK but you might want to check that out. I love the 30p look myself but since i realize that issue i am reluctant to use it.

Philippe

I use 30p with 1/30 shutter in low light. If I need to worry about compatibility with PAL, I'll probably use 24P in those situations.

with a promise by my distributor to buy BluRay DVD next year).

I'm not sure why you are looking to shoot either 30p or 24p since you admit 60i looks better than both. Moreover, 60i to 50i is a very common conversion so you'll have no problems.

Assuming you have a reason for low frame-rate video, then only go with 24p.

1) only 24p goes to NTSC and PAL without serious problems.

2) Blu-ray only supports 24p, 50i, and 60i.

However, FCP doesn't do 24p easily -- which suggests 60i is the optimum solution. This is also smart because you'll may need to send your production to the BD creaters on HDCAM or DVCPRO HD. It will be far far easier to move 1080i60 than any kind of 24p.

I shot in 30p for an informercial about 5 months ago, because the other camera was an HD100. If I had to do it again, I'd use two HD100s or two V1u's. And I'd shoot in 1080i60, though 30p gave it that nice progressive look, something like video and 24p, all at once.

heath

Thank you for some helpful feedback. I am a newcomer to HDV, but the last 3 years I have been shooting in 24p with the DVX100, with great results - and it is easy to edit in FCP and go to DVD in 24p.
My distributor gave me a spec, that includes for supplying a 24p DVD - I also believed DVD (and BluRay) can handle 30p. So hence my 30p question, especially after some tests and comparison to my 24p test on the V1.

I concur with Steve Mullen and I know he favors staying away from shooting progressive (in past threads). If I choose 60i, it is for the ease in editing with FCP - I was hoping any progressive issues with FCP would have been resolved by now, but it appears not so.

It does get confusing though - on Friday, I went to a Sony 'Cinema' seminar and many of the DP's said they were shooting in 24p - ok, many on expensive cinealta's, but a few in HDV format.
This is not an easy to answer question - that, I am sure of.

I am a newcomer to HDV, but the last 3 years I have been shooting in 24p with the DVX100, with great results - and it is easy to edit in FCP and go to DVD in 24p.
My distributor gave me a spec, that includes for supplying a 24p DVD - I also believed DVD (and BluRay) can handle 30p. So hence my 30p question, especially after some tests and comparison to my 24p test on the V1.


Unfortunately, many dealers and DVX100 users think of the V1's 24p as simply na HD version of DV's 24p. It's not. The most common goof is thinking that the V1's 24PS means ADVANCED. It does not.

Tonight I just got another email from someone who shot 24P not 24PA. This is a painful error since the way of working with 24PA in FCP -- using Cinema Tools -- doesn't work with 24P.

That's why if one was only going to NTSC I recommend 30p. But, once you say PAL, then it's either 24PA or 60i. My eBook does cover using 24PA with FCP so it's not impossible. I love folks buying my book, but I'd be the first to say your world will be simpler if you shoot 60i.

PS: Last I checked, 25p was NOT supported on HD DVD.
So be sure you confirm BD and HD DVD support 30p. The spec. may say 30fps by which they mean 60i. And, be sure the software you will use supports 30p. Again, better safe than sorry.

I'd love to see 60p but as I hand-hold most of the time I just can't handle 24p and I prefer the realistic look anyway.

I know a few FCP users have come unstuck with 24p footage - my last two docs were shot in 24A, and they always received nice comments on the footage.

If one goes by the rule that the delivery method dictates what you shoot in, then 60i is the safest choice, as Steve rightly points out. And, this is probably what I will choose, having just talked to one of my distributors, who worries that I cannot service his broadcasters in the UK if I shoot 30p.
If I do need to supply a DVD in 24p, then I could get there from 60i, but I have'nt done a test for myself yet.
Thank you everyone for your help.

Colin, are you in Beijing now? I will be there this week, to shoot some Martial Arts. I will be in Beijing for 5 weeks. Get in touch if so - jon@emptymindfilms.com

What if you are going directly to the web? Isn't 30p one of the better choices? I have a project heading direct to web and am considering 30p so I won't have to de-interlace later.

What if you are going directly to the web? Isn't 30p one of the better choices?...

Yes! Of course now you're locked in to 30p as regards other potential distribution.

having just talked to one of my distributors, who worries that I cannot service his broadcasters in the UK if I shoot 30p.
If I do need to supply a DVD in 24p, then I could get there from 60i, but I have'nt done a test for myself yet.

A few months ago when 25p HD DVD was discussed here -- Toshiba was not supporting 25p on any player. Given that so many 24fps films were released by speeding-up to 25p -- this seemed odd. Unless, the idea was that in the world of HD there would be only three formats: 24p, 50i, and 60i. Movies would stop being released at 25p. (The same MAY be true of BD.)

If there are no players that play 25p, then unless firmware is released for players -- it looks like in the HD world, if one wants low-rate footage, one has to shoot 24p.

Which means Apple and Avid not directly supporting the V1 is a major pain. However, I don't want to leave the impression one CANNOT use FCP. It's that each source clip must be processed by Cinema Tools before the final edit. In the next 48-hours I will see if Apple fixed CT's batch capability. If they did then it becomes MUCH easier to do.

PS 1: I keep hearing that at long last Apple will support 720p50 and 720p60. (I assume as part of support of 10.5.) Maybe 24p will be in this upgrade.

PS 2: Yes, my ebook does cover 60i to 24p post-production.

Just a comment on 30p. I have been experimenting with editing in HDV and outputting as a 1080i Quicktime reference file into procoder. I used Procoder to downconvert it to standard 16x9 NTSC. It produces a much more detailed image than standard DV. The one issue that I have seen is related to the field order. I have to switch the field order to get the correct sequence of frames, but this sometimes introduces vertical jitter because the scan lines are now in the wrong sequence. If I tell Procoder that it is a 1080p (30fps) image, then the jitter is gone, but rapid movement gives a double image on each frame. Shooting in 30p should solve this problem, giving a pristine downconvert that will look as good as any commercial DVD. Just a Note: The jitter issue is not visible on a computer screen, but shows up when viewing the DVD on a 56" 1080p DLP TV.

I'm looking for a sample mt2 video file shot in 30p format to continue my experiments. I don't have an HDV comcorder yet, but am seriously considering Sony's V1U or the new EX1.

FROM THE TOSHIBA E1 MANUAL:

"HD DVD discs containing high definition content at
a field rate of 50Hz or a frame rate of 25Hz can not
be played on this player without a firmware update.
Firmware update is expected in the future."

So in the PAL world -- only 24p playback.

ALSO THIS:

"To view high-definition picture in HD DVD discs,
a 60 Hz compatible HDTV display (720p, 1080i,
1080p) is required."

rapid movement gives a double image on each frame

That can be caused by using too high a shutter speed, so that the blur in the two individual fields doesn't blend well when the fields are combined into a 30p frame. Did you fix your shutter at 1/60 (or less) when you filmed that footage? One possibility to consider....

That can be caused by using too high a shutter speed, so that the blur in the two individual fields doesn't blend well when the fields are combined into a 30p frame.

Shutter speed? If the fields are being blended into one another then the problem lies at the encoding stage. A low shutter speed could hide the problem somewhat, but it will be still there. Blended fields look horrible.

Converting 60i to 30p combines the information from two fields into one frame.

Even using a motion-compensated deinterlace or whatever, if the field images are taken at shutterspeeds higher than 1/60 the result is a spatial gap between the end of the motion blur in the first field and the start of the motion blur in the second field, so that when the fields are are combined the result looks bad.

There are dozens of posts around saying "don't use auto shutter if you plan to deinterlace", and the result if you do in bright light is similar to what the OP described.

Just my $0.02. It's easy enough to try a short test clip ...

...There are dozens of posts around saying "don't use auto shutter if you plan to deinterlace"...
Um... don't use auto shutter if you plan to have your video shown anywhere outside your home!

Auto-shutter and auto-gain will do more to unpredictably screw up your video than just about anything. If your subject and shooting environment would benefit, or, if you're looking for a particular effect, you should be making the decisions about what shutter speed or level of video gain to use, don't ever leave it to the camera electronics. IMNSOHO, YMMV!

Auto-shutter and auto-gain will do more to unpredictably screw up your video than just about anything

Before you steer folks wrong -- these two are very different.

Auto-shutter gives your camera permission to push shutter-speed much higher than 1/60th or even 1/100th. This can cause the visual problems -- strobbing -- folks are talking about. So yes, you want to turn it off. And, in most cases you set the shutter-speed based on frame-rate and that's the end of it.

Auto-gain enables the camera to increase gain UP TO THE LIMIT YOU SET. If there isn't enough light to produce a good pix at 0dB gain -- then increasing gain is exectly the correct thing to do. It's exactly what a human operator would do. The difference between man and machine is that a human would watch the image and decide when the pix got too much noise. The fact is that in most cases that occurs when gain goes over +12dB.

Some JVC cameras solve this problem by simply limiting gain to +12dB. In this way, they can use AGC ON/OFF. (To limit gain to about +9dB use Twilight.)

Sony, of course, allows the camera to go to +18dB gain. But, if you know how to use the V1, you can set your own limit.

Ranting about the virtues of manual control are about a decade too late. Today, computers can control -- assuming YOU set the limits and choose when to allow the computer to function -- faster than humans. In the still photo world -- no one today would try to beat AF. It takes a human a half-second to respond to a visual change. An AF lens has done its job by the time you have registered that something needs to be done.

Converting 60i to 30p combines the information from two fields into one frame.


So... I theoretically should not be losing resolution when I convert my Z1 60i footage to 30p? Or... convert 50i footage to 25p?

Whenever I use HDLink or Premiere to deinterlace, it drops my resolution to 1440x540, icky. Can I fix this and greatly improve my workflow?

C

...Ranting about the virtues of manual control are about a decade too late. Today, computers can control -- assuming YOU set the limits and choose when to allow the computer to function -- faster than humans...

Well, it's true, I am a fossil.

Although Steve's description of what autogain is, and how you can limit it's operation to a preset on the V1 is accurate... and objectionable noise grain doesn't show up till past 9db on the V1...

I wanna' decide. You don't have to be raised with the dinosaurs to want to control the image. Deliberate design of the image is what pro camera work is all about. This (usually) means working under controlled conditions where my flakey brain is plenty fast enough to account for changing light, if any.

If the gain or iris is in automatic you're not just yielding exposure control to the camera, you're yielding depth-of-focus control as well.

I'll not hesitate to use auto-iris and/or auto-gain if a shot calls for making a sudden transition between interior and exterior lighting - but that's very rare for me. Reality TV camera ops will have different standard procedures, they gotta' follow the action and do it now, but I'm working in a more planned fashion.

Too often, "the camera does such a good job" is an excuse for ignorance of the basics of the numerous camera controls that affect exposure. This can quickly lead to questions like "Why is my subject silouetted? Why does this person of color look like a caucasian? Why is there no detail in the highlights on this person's face? Why can't I see this person's eyes, they're in deep shadow?"

Turn one exposure-related function on automatic and you lose control of all those issues. Granted, the camera's automatic settings can react quickly to changing lighting. But the camera does not know what is important in the scene, and can't distinguish between a face, a basketball and a desk lamp.

Auto-shutter gives your camera permission to push shutter-speed much higher than 1/60th or even 1/100th. This can cause the visual problems -- strobbing -- folks are talking about. So yes, you want to turn it off. And, in most cases you set the shutter-speed based on frame-rate and that's the end of it.I've seen that most pros / experienced people recommend this and I really, really want to trust this as I acknowledge the greater experience.

I wonder though:
- From a perceived quality point of view, I found that motion blur in HDV makes a significantly higher impact on the viewer's experience (vs. SD DV), just like focus blur does (remember focus is critical in HD?)
- For slight / slow pans of scenic buildings or viewpoints, I found that 1/100 shutter speed is nicer than 1/50 (I shoot 50i) as it better preserves details when panning.
- When shooting in motion (car or train), shooting 1/50 just leaves me with a mish-mash of motion blur that really isn't nice to look at (barely usable). Therefore I'd rather intend to increase to 1/150, maybe 1/200. I don't expect CBR MPEG2 to encounter a bandwidth limitation with increased detail, do I?

My question, then:
- Is it just a matter of subjective preference? Is it a collective 'yuk!' in the professional community that requires 'serious filming' to stick to 1/50 (or 1/60), so I'd rather go to higher shutter speeds just because I'm a consumer with different tastes?
- Or is there some real technical hard wall that I'll be hitting someday, that I'm not yet aware of? Note that I've already gone through the whole workflow to viewing edited footage on a Full HD display (1080i all-scan) with camcorder hooked through HDMI connection - a decent set-up for proof-checking.

Stephan,

While it's true "real pros" stick to 1/50th (PAL) or 1/60th (NSTC) to maintain compatibility with their producers' (TV stations?) requirements, I have long ago tested and approved a much more relaxed range for usable shutter speeds with my V1E. When in low-light, I shoot at 1/25th (in 25p mode this is eauivalent to "shutter off", and gives me a one full stop of more exposure). In bright sunlight, depending on the subject I sometimes go as high as 1/150th, for the very reasons you mention.

I have found that the 2 most often mentioned disavdantages of such a fast shutter: strobing and rolling shutter effects, are not noticeable in my pictures at all even with 1/150th, while the blurring is almost totally eliminated. Additional bonus being I can keep the iris open and get a controllable, shallower DOF - even on a summer day at noon, and on the beach :)

Okay thanks. Unless anyone here comes up with hard facts about that technical hard wall that the two of us don't see, I'll take this as an issue of corporate standards that pros have to comply with. Makes sense.

So... I theoretically should not be losing resolution when I convert my Z1 60i footage to 30p? Or... convert 50i footage to 25p?

Whenever I use HDLink or Premiere to deinterlace, it drops my resolution to 1440x540, icky. Can I fix this and greatly improve my workflow?

C

Unfortunately the fields can't simply be added to each other losslessly, as that would produce 'comb' artifacts whereever there is motion. There are however various 'motion-compensated deinterlace' software plugins around (e.g. for Virtualdub) that retain as much information as possible so in up with a resolution intermediate between fully interlaced versus a 'dumb' deinterlace that simply blends the fields together.

Unfortunately the fields can't simply be added to each other losslessly, as that would produce 'comb' artifacts whereever there is motion. There are however various 'motion-compensated deinterlace' software plugins around (e.g. for Virtualdub) that retain as much information as possible so in up with a resolution intermediate between fully interlaced versus a 'dumb' deinterlace that simply blends the fields together.

Gotcha!

I did some tests with 50i->25p->23.97p using Cineform when I convert from m2t to Cineform.... it actually looks really good! I set the frame type to Progressive instead of auto and the 25p->23.97p rate change.. deinterlace set to off. I see combing artifacts as described only while playing in Premiere, I stopped and looked at frames from the output and there was no combing only some rather realistic motion blur... was really impressed! Thanks for the tech breakdown on what I've been testing, I hate not knowing what negative effects that might have, and appreciate you filling me in!

Carl

That's what I've been doing, though I shoot in 50i and CineFrame 25 on the Z1u. I also use either ProRes 422 or Photo-Jpeg at 75% quality (that gives you 4:2:2 Y/Cb/Cr footage, not less video quality; 100% will give you RGB--thanks to RED's Graeme Nattress for the tip).

Heath