Ok, I put off actually trying to rendering until this morning because I sensed imminent frustration.

How right I was to just my natural instinct.

If I render with the "Close this dialog box when rendering complete" box checked, I am doomed. For, alas, after clicking this box the render never completes. It just carries on ticking away forever.

I have this feeling I am going to be finding hundreds of stupid bugs like this over the next few weeks. I never had a single crash with 6.0a, yet with 8.0a it is like I have struck the peninsula of Crashburg and the seagulls surrounding it are emptying their bottoms upon me with aplomb.

Robert, a lot of us (me included) have done several projects with V8 and have not experienced any of the problems you're having.
I'd be more inclined to suspect computer problems.

I'll second your comment Mike. Vegas 8 has been rock solid for me. If your system isn't up to the processing requirements, it'll lock up, tho'. One primary suspect, in a system that has plenty of CPU power, is the video card and drivers.

Robert, a lot of us (me included) have done several projects with V8 and have not experienced any of the problems you're having.
I'd be more inclined to suspect computer problems.

I have to disagree with this sentiment. Although I am planning to upgrade my system in the near future, my current machine is well above the minimum requirements. I have in the past used a variety of demanding high end applications and not experienced these problems. My system has been very carefully set up, with the very reliable Intel 915P Express chipset and the latest drivers for all components.

The issue I have described is not the sort of issue that you would associate with a below spec machine. However, even if the machine was below spec, and if the application found it did not have the resources to complete a task, there should be adequate error handling for the program to indicate as such, and at the very least allow for a safe shut down.

The error I am describing is most likely entirely GUI related. The task completes fine if I do not check the "Close this dialog box when rendering completes" box. The resources required to read that checked box and automatically close the window are negligible, so all hands point to a sloppy piece of coding that is causing the lock up. That may not exhibit itself on all machines or platforms. But on my machine, it is exhibiting itself very clearly.

So yes, I am very disappointed with the reliability of this release.

And more odd behaviour:

I just had a project open containing one 6 second clip. I went to "file/save as", the program opens the file requester but does not populate the file list for about 20 seconds. When it does populate the file list, it hangs for two minutes, at one point displaying the "Not responding" line in the requester's title bar, before suddenly springing into life. There was no disk activity during this period, and I didn't think to look at the processor load.

It seems like it got stuck until there was a timeout somewhere along the line.

I'm beginning to think this is an issue with the way it talks to the Window XP API. I would not be surprised if it functions a lot better under Vista.

I avoid Vista like the plague that it is.

Robert, I understand. I have been using Vegas only since 5, but I've never experienced this kind of bugginess. I have a new workstation (Quad processore, Raptor HDs, etc.) on which 7 ran perfectly. Now, the biggest aggravation is as I move down the timeline, the audio peaks seem to need to re-build themselves everytime. (I know what you're thinking, build peaks for visible events is not checked).

What's worse, they don't always do so, and if I want to see them, which I almost always do, I have to stop the timeline from playing if it is, wait for the peaks to rebuild again, etc. Sometimes I must click on the video clip on the timeline to wake it up and get it started because the video clips will just be blank and I don't know what I'm looking at.

What's worse is I zeroed out my HD did a clean installation of Windows specifically to avoid the problems others were experiencing.

I must say, however, that it seems that 8 renders a tad faster, can anyone else confirm this?

I have done at least three small project on 8, without much issue. However, I did do a short and wanted to use the Magic Bullet Movie Looks as a filter. I was editing using Cineform 60i files which I had deinterlaced in HDLink on capture. I had finished and rendered a final version, that I only wanted to add the bleach by pass filter to. I opened a new project, and brought the 3 minute 20 sec movie in, added the Magic Bullet bleach by pass filter, and started rendering. It took 9 hours to render....... any body had that experience ?

Magic Bullet really adds huge amounts of time to rendering, but that sounds way over the top. Which processor are you using Chris?

From what I have read here regarding the stability of version 8, it apppears much less stable than at this point last year when version 7 had been rolled out. There are always problems with a new release and people will find bugs and have issues, it just seems version 8 is more plagued with this problem than version 7. That's just my subjective opinion based on what I've read in the forum here.

I can't help but think maybe much of this does in-fact revolve around Windows XP vs Vista. Perhaps there are slight coding differences for the two and in an attempt to take advantage of Vista specific features, they have hurt the software overall for those running XP or Vista.

I have two copies of Vegas 8 still sitting here on my desk waiting to be installed when I see a few more revisions come out of Sony that hopefully address at least the majority of issues people are reporting here.

Jon

Maybe you guys should read the release notes for VP8. There's a 32 bit floating point math option that changes the way V8 processes data. The odd thing is that SMM turned this on by default. Some plugins don't play well, if at all, with the 32 bit math. You can tell which ones by the funny little icons in the Video FX dropdown menu. At any rate, based on the number of complaints against Magic Bullet, I would guess that it doesn't work with 32 bit float. I really wouldn't know since "movie look" is not something I need or use. It's neither a movie look nor is it pleasant to view.

One of the side effects of 32 bit math is that it takes longer to process the video stream.

It's a SIMPLE matter to go into preferences and turn off 32 bit float. Tis will return you to the old arcane way of doing things with 8 bit math.

You are correct to wait Jon. I was waiting also, but heard of two instances where clean installs over a new OS installation fixed issues. So I took the plunge. I view my upgrade cost as money wasted.

Funny thing is I have flirted with the idea of installing Vista to see what happens...

I'd probably end up going from the frying pan into the fire, so I guess I won't. But I have suspected Vegas might be optimized for Vista making it less XP friendly.

I also like the idea of better memory utilization with Vista, but don't know if that translates into any performance improvement with Vegas or not.

Al l the glitches I am experiencing, and those I have read from others are things that should have been picked up in the beta period. It seems that the beta stage got severely shortened in order to make a release date. The fact that this software has gone out with GUI problems is scandalous.

I would have held back on the update until my current project is complete, but the fact was we could do with the performance increase when handling hdv now we are in the colour correction stage.

To me this software is clearly still in the beta or even alpha stage and I would not be suprised if you see a b version in the next couple of weeks. I think it is rather telling of the state of the development roster that they are already on build 179 with 8.0a when 6.0a was back at build 99.

Magic Bullet really adds huge amounts of time to rendering, but that sounds way over the top. Which processor are you using Chris?

AMD Dual Core 3800+. Running XP --not pro...

I had forgotten about the 32 bit issue, and I am guessing that is what is occuring. Not complaining about the result, just the time to get it...

Robert,

There are definately render bugs as well as other bugs that cause Vegas 8 to crash. 8.0a does seem more stable for me compared to the first release, but it still not perfect. I have a high end system that had virtually no problems with Vegas 7. I usually only start crashing as my project gets more complex. 32 bit also must be completely avoided for me at this point which is a shame.

While these may or may not be somewhat hardware specific problems, Vegas 7 was still more stable with the same hardware.

Marc

Chris, I am not familiar with the 3800, but I do believe while Magic Bullet is terrible for render times, your processor could be updated and you would see a significant increase. I know when I went from Pentium IV to duo core it was pretty dramatic. Magic Bullet is still slow, but I would render out the project you described in about 6 mins with my current processor. Without Bullet a 3 min clip would take about 90 seconds (for Mpeg2). Of course ugrading is not always feasible or affordable.

Thanks Bill, I'm going to disable 32 bit and see what happens.

Pay the price and toss the dice.
Vegas has always been somewhat "development software", IMHO. I've been using Vegas since version3. New releases are always glitchy because Sonic Foundry and then Sony push the envelope to stay current with camera technology. The alternative would be to be like FCP, Premiere, or Avid, where changes follow camera technology by 1-2 years.

For my money, I'll take the cutting edge capability and live with the buginess. But, that's just my choice. So, make a choice and live with it 'cuz that's how it is. After reading all the complaints with other NLE software makers, even the Hollywood favorite, Avid, I think vegas 8 is quite an accomplishment. It's really pretty amazing that the guys at Madison have kept the philosophy that Sonic Foundry started and haven't caved in to the corporate battlecry of mediocrity.

Actually, I went back to project, and I found my project was not not in 32. Had it in 8 bit by default.

3800+ was AMD's first dual core. It was smoking over any Intel two years ago....

I just tried the same Magic Bullet filter in Vegas 7-- it started mounting up the count, and I shut it down after it registered it was going to take 1 hour 40minutes, and it was still climbing. My dual core monitor was showing both cores working hard. This one does not make sense, but I assume there is some issue with the processor setup for this plug and perhaps the interaction with Cineform's codec.

I do fine with Vegas filters, though still a lot longer than you indicate to render out to the Cineform intermediate I use. This particular project had about 4 video track and 5 audio, each with some filters and transitions. All video was in Cineform format. The 3 minute project, in that case, took about 20 minutes to render to a final Cineform file.

Maybe time to look at new processor....as you indicated.

I know, the one I upgraded from recently was pretty good almost exactly two years ago also...I'm obviously in the wrong business...this will likely go on forever, buying a new processor every couple of years.

I hear an 8 core is on the way, but I believe that is 2009, if I'm not mistaken.

I hope I can say this...

The reason that crashes are more evident?

Encrypted core files.

It protects against piracy, but sure is a pain in the neck on some incompatible systems.

I'm not a supporter of Trusted Computing so this is an example of Trusted Computing gone wrong.

You know, I was going to say at least they have not gone for the dongle route, because any dongle introduces a huge bottleneck into any system. So I'm not suprised its a protection layer that could be throwing a spanner in the works. It would also go someway to explain all these problems that could be put down to memory corruption issues.

The only people that don't feel the impact of protection schemes are those who are using cracked software. I remember a few years ago doing a last minute favour for a friend, setting up a laptop to make a multi-track recording of a school show. The laptop would just not accept the Cubase dongle and external hard disk at the same time, so I ended up getting hold of a crack along with a dongle emulator to get around it. That was daft in itself, but at the end of the show, I checked the dongle emulator's window and it reported that it had been called over three thousand times in the hour or so it was active. A few days later I was regaling the story to a friend and he told me that over 50% of all the processor time Cubase uses is calling protection routines. Madness.

Wow, just wow.

Well, you gotta make it work somehow...

wow is right! didn't know vegas had encrypted core. yikes!! is it new with this release? I run vegas on both an intel laptop and an intel workstation, dual core processors on both machines. never has given me any probs. I used to run an AMD dual core and that, too, seemed fairly trouble free altho' not as free as the intel machines.

a couple of other areas to investigate with your install:
1- In preferences, look at the number of Rendering Threads selected. At most, you should have 1 or 2, unless you already have a quad core machine.

2-Look at the amount of dynamic RAM you've selected. Generally speaking, the less you have, the better off you are. Speaking of RAM, 2 Gb seems to be the minimum for trouble free op, at least, that has been my experience.

3-as for long render times, so much software, these days, ship with processor intensive background processes. When Vegas renders, it runs at 100% processor utilization. Every single background process, including mouse movement, takes processor cycles away from the render processing. Anti-virus and file scanners that run on cycles use a lot of resources. Still image processing is memory intensive. Have you monitored your memory useage during rendering? If you're filling RAM, the rendering will slow to a crawl when you start paging files.

It has always seemed odd, to me, that some people have so much trouble when some others don't. A lot of times, the problems are associated with outdated video cards or video card drivers.

Actually, I went back to project, and I found my project was not not in 32. Had it in 8 bit by default.

3800+ was AMD's first dual core. It was smoking over any Intel two years ago....

I just tried the same Magic Bullet filter in Vegas 7-- it started mounting up the count, and I shut it down after it registered it was going to take 1 hour 40minutes, and it was still climbing. My dual core monitor was showing both cores working hard. This one does not make sense, but I assume there is some issue with the processor setup for this plug and perhaps the interaction with Cineform's codec.

I do fine with Vegas filters, though still a lot longer than you indicate to render out to the Cineform intermediate I use. This particular project had about 4 video track and 5 audio, each with some filters and transitions. All video was in Cineform format. The 3 minute project, in that case, took about 20 minutes to render to a final Cineform file.

Maybe time to look at new processor....as you indicated.

I updated from a 3800 X2 to a Opteron 185 b4 the 939 socket CPU run out. Now it is so much faster at stock 2.6 vs 2.0 when rendering.

Thanks Cary, will consider that......

wow is right! didn't know vegas had encrypted core. yikes!! is it new with this release?

Yes, it's new with Vegas 8.

I honestly do not know what the point is of trying to protect software. It is so easy to crack most software. If you want a piece of software, you will be able to get it within a couple of days of it being released. More often than not, you will be able to get it before it is released

If I was Sony, I would concentrate on bring in money for the Vegas range by bundling OEM versions with their cameras. Professional users will usually buy the software, but casual non professional users will more often than not just get the pirate version.

Yes, it's new with Vegas 8.

I'm curious.. What part of Vegas 8 is encrypted?

What's the "core?"

Think carefully before you answer...




As far as Robert's problems go, those almost all sound like storage device issues. Either drive failure, controller failure, controller driver bug, or a bad cable. The way that apps talk to disks hasn't really changed between XP and Vista. Vista allows for a few more tricks (like I/O prioritization), but I don't know of Vegas using any of those.

-Matt

This isn't to say that Vegas is perfect.... Of course.

Sometimes I get to 100% rendering completed, but it will still go on for another 10 minutes or so...the output file is perfect regardless if this happens or not.

As far as Robert's problems go, those almost all sound like storage device issues. Either drive failure, controller failure, controller driver bug, or a bad cable. The way that apps talk to disks hasn't really changed between XP and Vista. Vista allows for a few more tricks (like I/O prioritization), but I don't know of Vegas using any of those.
-Matt

I can't disagree more with this. My machine is in good health, but if it was any of these issues, it would have obvious in earlier revisions of the software.

I had three failed renders this week using Pro 8. All simple DV to DV projects. However, I just discovered that I have a failing hard drive. I Replaced the hard drive, and I have since had 5 good renders. Faster too!

I'm so shocked by how many occurrences of failing drives there seems to be on here. I may be stating the obvious, but are you guys actually cooling your computers correctly? If you stick a £3 fan in the front of your machines (directly in front of the drives) and turn it up high, your drive temperature will drop by around 10-20 degrees.

If your drives are hot to touch, then you have a problem. Simple as that.

You hit on an important issue, Robert. In a previous PC I ran an excessive number of internal HDs (6) and had two fail on me before I realized they needed extra cooling.

If you have a drive directly below another drive in a system, then it will run about 9-10 degrees hotter that the one above no matter what you do. Use a big spacious case and run lots of fans inside. While noise can be an issue, we are in the era of wireless and digital connections and machines can quite easily be placed in another room, or even in dedicated refrigerated unit to make sure things are reliable.

My failed drive was a very old Western Digital external drive. I only use Seagate external drives now. So far no problems. I have rendered 12 projects this week since dumping the old drive. Perfect Renders every time.

This is the problem with external drives though - they are universally very poorly cooled. That is why they always feel so warm and have such bulky cases. They are focused on trying to draw heat way from the drive through convection in the case, but they are never as good as in an open area with air blown over them. It is the constant heating and cooling of the drive that pulls the intricate hardware out of line and causes unreliability and eventually hard disk crashes.

I may be stating the obvious, but are you guys actually cooling your computers correctly?

Judging from David's location, I don't imagine cooling is a problem. ;-)

On a more serious note, with the exception of the Titler I have found 8 to be MORE stable than previous versions. Also enjoyed marginally faster rendering. What am I doing (or not doing) that others aren't (or are)? Or, more to the point, what do I have on my system that others don't? And even more to the point, why are hardened users like Edward and Spot (and so on) not reporting problems?

And to comment on other points raised in this thread:

Cracked versions of 8 appeared one day after I bought the upgrade - which was on the day the upgrade came out. Yes, I looked. And because cracked versions often use 'fiddled with' versions of the core exe or dll's they are prone to instability. Yes, I know these things (I was the sales director for Europe's most successful privately owned software house (at the time) for many years before landing in the video world. You get to know about pirated software!). Not suggesting anyone here is using cracked versions, just making the point about how quickly these illegal copies surface.

Robert, should your comment be "if they are TOO hot to touch you have a problem"? Having used system temp monitoring software for a while, I can say that my drives are ALWAYS hot to touch but, at least according to the monitoring s/w, they are within tolerable levels. As you suggest, I put a cheap household fan in front of my system during the summer, just in case (also keeps my legs cool). Internally, my PC has more fans than Heather Mills (four).

Matthew, your "think carefuly before you answer" comment suggests you know something or are trying to catch us out! Care to share, Especially as no-one has taken the bait?

Well my version is completely legitimate, so that puts that theory to bed. I don't actually think that the crackers would need to touch the trusted platform software, because as far as I know, this is not actually enabled yet. You would require some kind of dedicated chip in the machine to make it work and hence become a "trusted platform".

The kind of protection used in Vegas currently is very easy to crack. It requires very little reverse engineering.

I remember when Acid first came out, the protection was so weak, a friend of mine cracked it without actually touching any of the code, just by using the operating system. Sonic Foundry released a mysterious revision the day after he published the method.

It is also worth pointing out, most of the best coders and developers were at one point or another crackers. Back in the days of groups such as Radium, even if you had the official version of a plug in, you would be daft not to have the cracked version, as they did so much work to strip out pointless protection routines, and fix other bugs and performance bottlenecks. For instance, for a long time the best MP3 codec around was an official licensed codec that Radium got their hands on and totally optimized.

Oops, nearly forgot, when I referred to a fan at the front of the case, I meant a *computer case fan* in the fixture in front of the drive bays. Ideally two case fans in the front fixture.

This is not possible on all cases, but on those it is, you normally have to remove a few extra screws to get the front panel of the case off and then removed some other parts around the power switch to get the fans in. They should be connected to fan ports on the motherboard, but if noise is not an issue and if the fans can take the power and you have the right adapters, then connect them straight to molex power connections and let them blast at full power at all times.

Well my version is completely legitimate, so that puts that theory to bed.

In your case, yes, but that only puts it to bed in your case! We both (it seems) know that there are enough second-rate crackers out there to produce unstable versions - not talking about trusted platform issues here (way beyond me), just reverse engineering the exe or dll's that contain the protection.

when I referred to a fan at the front of the case, I meant a *computer case fan*

Er, yep, gathered that! My (poor) attempt at humour. Clearly missed! And before anyone mentions it, yes I am sure Ms Mills has more than four fans.

But then again, it IS Saturday night and we all should be out doing other less nerdy stuff!

I forgot to clarify my point about the cracked version of Vegas 8. The software is actually identical to the software you or I have. All they do is write a serial generator. It makes a serial that you enter at install, then you choose the register from another computer option and then you use the authorization code it automatically generates at the same time.

So that rules out a crack making it unstable because all it does is come up with acceptable figures for the software.

Well it would seem I know less about cracked software than I thought! And I have zero experience of cracked versions of Vegas anyway so I will bow to your expertise in the field!

I have just last week upgraded my computer so that with a render that took 16 odd hours on my old machine (1.8g) with V7, now takes 2 hr 12mins on the new with V8.

Because of over-looked errors in my project :-( !!! I have had to render the same project 3 times.

V8 has not missed a beat in any editing or rendering I have done so far.

Hmm, just had a dig around and it looks like there is a crack, but there is also a crackless backdoor around the standard released version. The cracked version sounds like it exhibits some basic functionality problems, with missing transitions and effects. So keep an eye out for odd questions to that effect!

So keep an eye out for odd questions to that effect!

He he he . . . I 'm always curious when I read posts with 'my friend has this copy of . . . ' or when people say that they have Magic Bullet and Boris and Photoshop and After Effects and Vegas and SoundForge and Pixelan, Zenote, NewBlue and VASST plugins but then ask a question like "how do I put a title over my video?". That's a lot of cash for a beginner to spend!

Of course cracks are illegal for distribution and use, and most would say immoral as well.

Cracked software is also sometimes:
Incomplete, as Robert noted.
Inoperable.
Flakey.
A bait for embedded keystroke recording or zombie programs.

Likewise keygen software/sites are sometimes used as bait - I've rescued at least one computer that was zombiefied by a keygen program for some video game. In that case, nuking the hard drive and reloading the system was neccessary to restore it, what a pain.

Keystroke recording - trolling for credit card numbers typed in on a computer. Such a program recognizes likely credit card number sequences and stores them for later transmission.

Zombie - a computer that has been turned into a node on a spam network. This will sometimes result in your ISP cutting you off, and/or, an inability to access some networks that have identified your ip address as a known spam source. Your computer will be sluggish at times, your network and internet connection will be saturated with traffic.

And long may that continue, Seth. While I may not always agree with the way or the amount companies charge for software (Sony is an exception - excellent value) I am not in the slightest bit impressed with people who steal what I have paid for. Long may their computers be riddled with nasty stuff.

While this discussion regarding cracked software is fine, I highly doubt cracked software has anything to do with the problems being experienced by the users of this forum. Interesting digression, but digression nonetheless, IMO.

I must say that experienced users (like me) have had issues, and while it is easiest for those who have not had issues to say "They must have inadequate hardware, etc., " that is not the case. We are talking about people who have used Vegas with no problems in the past who now suddenly have a multitude of different issues. And do not even try to explain away the issue with the Titler, that is the sorriest buggiest junk I have ever seen, and while it might work for you, it causes crashes for plenty of people. It causes Vegas to freeze for me.

I have detected in some posts a smug "I have no problems, so why should you?"

I have stated so many times that to repeat my system configuration will sound like bragging, so I will not. But this version is troublesome for me, and I have NEVER had an issue with Vegas before. This sucks, I hate it, and I can't go back because all the projects I've saved or created in 8 will not open in 7. And I've already done many.

A few people have had bad hard drives, but again, those incidents do mean the rest automatically have hardware issues. If you are not having problems, consider yourself lucky, and if you have not upgraded yet, think hard before you do.

Hi Jeff,

You're right, total digression.

So let's return to the theme of general problems with Vegas (not actually the specific subject of this thread but hey ho).

I have followed the multiple posts about Vegas's instability with interest. It will be clear to anyone that has read what I have written that my problems lie specifically - and exclusively - with the Titler. Everything else is fine. For me.

Couple of points:

1. Inadequate hardware. For 'inadequate' maybe read 'not comfortable with this release of Vegas'? It can and does happen. I upgraded to quadcore blah de blah in the spring and certain things just aren't happy with it.

2. Really not sure I've seen any smugness in any threads!

3. Are we doing anything to identify commonalities among those who are having problems - processor, O/S, graphics, memory, Vegas config, HD/SD etc etc. Doesn't look like it.

4. Last point - I have looked back at the problem threads both here and in the 'official' Vegas forum to try and quantify the problem. There are a handful of recurring issues that are being reported by a handful of people. Those issues are serious issues for people and are causing them pain, therefore they need to be addressed. But in the scheme of things, what percentage of Vegas users does this handful of users represent? I have counted fourteen individuals, including myself, who report crashing problems with the Titler. Of course not every Vegas user will participate in these forums, but I reckon any Vegas user who is having problems will. My point here is that there does not seem to be any quantifying of the problem for us to be stating that Vegas 8 is junk and should not have been released.