Greetings,

First of all, this is my first post here but have been lurking around reading threads and getting to know the personalities on the board. I applaud www.dvinfo.net for making this resource available!

I'm brand new with the world of DV production but have a vast desire in making it work. I LOVE MULTIMEDIA and technology and have a creative hunger that I need to feed. :-)

Now on to the nitty gritty. After doing months of research about camera qualities, features, and price...I concluded that the GL-1 would be my best bang for the buck so I purchased one about 6 months ago and have been experimenting with the camera to find it's features, strengths and limitations.

After spending many many hours of taping, editing, rendering....for DVD media, I'm just not happy with the video quality. I've tried different environmental factors as well as manual settings on the camera, along with running the camera in just AUTO. As I am quick to assume, the video playback on the LCD and on my computer monitor is crisp and clean, however, once it is burned to DVD and played back on a TV, all the footage is grainy with no clarity at all on the video footage. Stills from my digital camera and "Titles" that are generated out of Premiere come out crisp and clean so I don't think it's my rendering process, otherwise, those elements should also have the same kind of grainy artifacts as well.

My conclusion is that either my camera is shot, I have too high of expectations for the GL-1, or I'm missing some magical setting during the recording, capturing process, or rendering process in regards to the codec settings.

If anyone has experienced the same issue and have resolved this issue, it would be greatly appreciated if you could share your tips or tricks.

~Cheers~

Strange, I bet it's something when your rendering MPEG2 for a DVD. Try playing the footage back on the TV straight from the camera, and see if it still looks like that.

Are you shooting indoors with little light or somewhere with "lowlight"?

Hi Chris,

welcom to the board! I need more infos to help you. Are you using a Mac or PC? Which Software are you using for cutting/editing/encoding/mastering? If the picture is perfect on the GL1s display or a connected TV, the computer is responsible for the loss of quality. Describe your workflow so we'll help you.

Chris

I have a feeling that most of what you are seeing is compression artifacts. I have a GL1 myself, and find little fault with it. As a matter of fact, I think it's footage was every bit as good as my XL1s was.

MPEG compression is a lossy format at best, and tries to lose information it thinks you won't need. Hence, the grainyness you mentioned. I am not an MPEG expert by any means, and I'm sure that others here with more experience will chime in and help.

Hi Chris,
Yes, to just capsulize what I think Alex, Chris F. and Keith are basically wondering, at what point in your workflow are you observing a disappointing result? Shooting some footage and then just plugging the camera into a good television set for playback will probably yield the best indicator of the GL-1's status. I owned one for three years and agree that it produces very good results.

Just a friendly comment: perhaps make a point using good lighting to improve your footage? Good lighting works wonders.

Thanks for the quick replies!

I'll definately look into what the footage looks like directly from the camera to a TV Monitor. It's been so long time since I've done that, lately I've been going directly from the field to capture to burn...

This is how I have been doing the process.

[list=1]

Film the shot.
Firewire connect to a Roxio Firewire PCI Card.
Open Premiere 6.5 (PC Format)
Standard DV AVI Capture
Do what ever editing to the video I need to make
Render Timeline -> Movie using Microsoft AVI NTSC (I cannot seem to adjust anytype of settings using this codec, which I believe is just the nature of that codec.
Open MyDVD where Sonic Transcodes the AVI files when it burns to DVD.

[/list=1]

So that's my process, but I will definately check how the quality looks directly from the camera to the TV tonight.

~Cheers~

I also wonder if your camera might have the autogain enabled. For example, do you turn it on before taking the lens cap off? If you aren't seeing grain on playing straight from the camera to the TV then autogain isn't a problem. If it is then watch the footage on your TV with the display turned on. That way you can see what exposure settings your camera used when you filmed in auto.

If it is a rendering problem I'm wondering if the rendered resolution isn't set right? Perhaps rendering for a web setting (320x240) and then playing back full-screen?

<<<-- Originally posted by Jeff Price : I also wonder if your camera might have the autogain enabled. For example, do you turn it on before taking the lens cap off? If you aren't seeing grain on playing straight from the camera to the TV then autogain isn't a problem. If it is then watch the footage on your TV with the display turned on. That way you can see what exposure settings your camera used when you filmed in auto.

That's interesting. I'll have to check into this 'gain', which could certainly be the culpret, as I can't seem to remember anything about video gain. If it's anything like digital audio, too much digital gain makes horrible distortion. I'll check.


If it is a rendering problem I'm wondering if the rendered resolution isn't set right? Perhaps rendering for a web setting (320x240) and then playing back full-screen? -->>>

I made sure that all files were rendered and kept in a 3:2 aspect, 720x480 resolution through the whole process (to the best of my knowlege). :-)

NTSC DV resolution is 720x480 .

NTSC (& PAL) DV has a maximum playback resolution of 540 horizontal lines. :)


-----------------------------
- Frank Granovski - :)

Transcoding/compression settings to MPG2 for DVD can have a lot of effect on the quality, and moving video is a lot harder to compress than stills. Use the highest bit rate you can for reliable playback for best quality.

Thank you everyone for your time and input. It appears, after investigating the settings on the camera, that my camera tech had the sharpness set to MAX, +12db on the Video gain. So between the two elements, the result was my graininess found of the footage. I really need to look into a external but portable monitoring system. It just looks too good on that LCD.

By the way, the camera tech's name will remain undisclosed. :-)

~Cheers~

Oh yeah- that'll do it. I don't know of any instances when you'd need the sharpness turned up that high on any digital camera. I shot my last wedding on my DVX100 with the detail (sharpness) nudge up a bit and it seemed to introdcued a fair amount of noise in the image. It also depends on the size of the TV your viewing it. On my small 12" tv (I used for montitoring while editing) all footage looks flawless- very sharp and clear without the presence of noise. However when I play it back in my 36" Sony Wega HD-TV any bit of noise in the image is much more visible. I'd assume that would multiply the larger the screen your viewing your image on.

I would agree with the TV size. On my 27" it looked "acceptable" but by no means good enough, on my 32" I almost couldn't even watch it. I've seen cleaner footage with my old Sony Hi-8.

I did run some test shots lastnight with much better results. I'm finding that unless I have a 27+" monitor display, it will be really hard to judge if the shot is "clean" or not until I can get more experience under my belt. The LCD is fine for framing the shot, but it does no justice for the lighting and clarity of the shot. At 720x480 resolution on a small LCD like that, anything is going to look good, right? ;-)

So either I run in "Auto" mode constantly, or I need to be able to define what the different meters are telling as it relates to what the shot "will" look like once it's down on disk, and as far as I know, can only be achieved through trial and error unless someone can direct me to some technique resources specific to the GL-1.

Not really knowing the terminology that I'm looking for, I'm really not quite sure what to 'search' for.

~Cheers~

Focus you should be able to tell through the viewfinder (EVF) or LCD, same with composition although you are recording more than will show up on the TV screen so be careful about filling to the edges.

Color there isn't much you can do except set the white balance. Sure you can tweak your colors warmer or cooler using the set-up but in terms of hands on changes while you record, not much. Any color changes are set before the shot.

That leaves exposure. Exposure can be tough to adequately judge with the viewfinder and/or LCD. You need to work with your camera enough to know what brightness levels to set the LCD/EVF to be equal to what you are actually shooting. Zebras can really help here. If you have the zebras turned on then anything with zebra stripes will be over-exposed. Too many zebras can make it hard to focus though.

A properly calibrated field monitor is your best bet to see exactly what your getting while shooting. In addition to color and exposure it's much easier to make sure your focus is dead on.
The downside, however, is that they are quite expensive- roughly $1000 for a decent 8-10" model and it might not be suitable for the type of shooting your doing. I'd love to have a field monitor during wedding shoots but it's just not feasable due to the shooting enviroment. Besides who want's their wedding to look like a movie production....it'll draw the guests attention from the ceremony it'self to see me fiddling around with all this gear!

Another option would be external LCD, I know I know you already have one...but the GL-1 should be ashamed to still be using such a small LCD! I know from using both my DVX100 and GL-1 extensively that the DVX100 is alot more pleasant to monitor with it's built in 4" monitor. At least I can tell if my focus is on.

Chris,

I'm relatively new to the GL1 myself, just having gotten mine a few months ago. I can see in your questions some of the same problems I was dealing with. So, if you don't mind a little blind leading the blind, I could add a few tips that I learned the hard way.

1) Video gain on the GL1 is weird. Even when you're in full manual mode, it automatically sets the gain in reference to how much light is hitting the ccd when you turn the camera on. What this means is that if you turn the camera on before you take the lens cap off (or if you turn it on in a low-light situation), it automatically sets the gain at +12...ack! Even if you're using one of the auto modes (which the purist in me does not recommend), make sure you go over to manual and reset the gain to 0dB to reduce grain. (It also helps to be shooting with 1/60 shutter speed, although there are some unusual exceptions to that rule.)

2) It's true that the LCD is a lousy gauge of picture quality. Having a properly calibrated field monitor in tow is going to help you get a wysiwyg image. But, obviously, that's not always practical. If you want to shoot good footage without worrying about a monitor, it isn't too hard. Start with what I already said, 0dB gain and 1/60 shutter speed. Adjust your exposure with the iris. (If you're going for a specific depth-of-field effect, you may have to break this rule, but that's a separate issue. )

3) Then, all you have to worry about it is proper exposure. Here's where the zebra stripes are handy. You can't trust the LCD for exposure. Even if it's properly calibrated, which is almost impossible given the limited controls, it's going to be highly succeptible to bad information from glare and off-angle viewing. The eyepiece viewfinder is better but still not ideal. The zebra stipes are great, however. They're like a poor-man's waveform monitor. I'm not sure how much you know about zebras, so forgive me if this is redundant to you. The zebras on the GL1 are set to 95 IRE. That means any time you see striping in your viewfinder, those areas have exceeded 95 IRE in brightness. 100 IRE is generally taken as the maximum brightness for an element in a shot. (There are obscure instances where you might want something to blow out over 100 IRE, but they're relatively uncommon.) So, as a general rule of thumb your highlights should be around that 95 IRE mark. There is an aesthetic choice here. You can either set exposure so you just start to see some stiping on the hightlights. Or, if you prefer a slightly darker image, find the point right where the stiping disappears and go from there. The GL1 iris moves in increments of full stops, so the difference here is pretty small.

Anyway, sorry to be so long-winded. Bottom line: avoid gain, avoid fast shutter speeds, and use your zebra stripes. You'll be pleased with what you get.

Stu,

Thanks for the tips for sure! I was out all weekend taking outside shots of Glacier National Park here in Montana, which I'm grateful to say I have such a natural wonder right here in back yard! I kept close tabs on my gain, as well as used the zebra stripes to monitor my exposure. I haven't had the time yet to compare my footage to see the results, but I remember the shots appearing to be dark on LCD, so we'll see how they turned out.

On the topic of Shutter speed, I'm a little embarrassed to say that I've never messed with the shutter speeds, mainly because I'm not sure what results I'll get from the different settings.

Needless to say, I think with the help of your comments and the comments of the other members, I’ll be able to shoot with a little more confidence that it’s taking the quality shot I expect from this camera. :-)

~Cheers~

Looks like I'm 80% there.... Next I'll be adjusting the shutter speeds to 1/60 as suggested to hopefully give me even a better shot. Thanks again for all your help.

I have noticed however, the graininess is gone, but I don't have the color that I would normally expect. All color settings are set to neutral. Is this common? The only lenses I was using was my UV and a Polar lense for the outside shot...

I can fix it with some color correction, but it seems that the shots should be more vivid without the need for any color corrections. It's mainly the greens arn't rich enough. Almost everything has a brownish tone, maybe too much red....

Thanks again,

Chris

Chris,
It's hard to comment on footage I can't see. But I can say that a polarizing filter can significantly affect apparent color saturation in bright sunlight. Perhaps it merits further experimentation.

BTW, your noted location is making me wistful. For several successive years I spent a week or ten days out in Glacier. There's just no country like it anywhere. I haven't been back for nearly 20 years. Maybe it's time!

Originally posted by Ken Tanaka : Chris,
It's hard to comment on footage I can't see. But I can say that a polarizing filter can significantly affect apparent color saturation in bright sunlight. Perhaps it merits further experimentation.

BTW, your noted location is making me wistful. For several successive years I spent a week or ten days out in Glacier. There's just no country like it anywhere. I haven't been back for nearly 20 years. Maybe it's time!

Ken,

Definitely more experimentation is in order. :-)

I will add that every day I am grateful to live in such a majestic surrounding. I am truly blessed to be just a half-hour drive from the park's west entrance. I grew up in Hawaii, and upon moving here, all the Locals would ask how I could leave such a beautiful place for Montana. They really had no idea how much beauty they had right in their back yard. If you going to make a trip back, you had better make it soon. There's talk that they will be rebuilding the 'Going To The Sun' road which is expected to close that pass for a few years anyways. :-)

In an experiment, I uploaded a color correct sample of my footage from Father's Day this past weekend. I was driving and holding the cam at the same time, so immediate adjustments on the exposure was rather difficult at times, but this is not for you to critique my work, but rather to have another glimpse of Glacier National Park. I did have a little fun with it, so I hope it doesn't give you a headache. :-)

Click Here (http://www.ez-serve.net/media/)

~Cheers~

Chris,
Thanks for that clip. Sun Road looks just like I remember it! Of course I drove a bit slower <g>. Yup, spring time is goat time up there. I must have a box full of slides of those mountain goats (not to mention Douglas Chadwick's "A Beast the Color of Winter" as a result).

Going To the Sun Road and Highway 1 near Big Sur must surely be the most awe-inspiring drives in the U.S.

Thanks!

Chris - Just reassure me that you haven't applied sound? - Apologies if you've said this in your very informative posting - maybe I missed it . . . I've just tested my system by downloading from the Vegas Users website and audio is working.

Oh yeah - Your clip is stunning!

Grazie

Graham,

Rest assured, there is no sound. :-)






This was probably a bad example, but I did manage to get rid of the grain. Some important lesson's were learned from this shoot:


Use the Zebra Stripes to keep a check on your exposure.
Take the lens cap off before turning on the camera. Check and re-check the video gain.
If you’re going to shoot through a windshield, make sure it's clean, and try to use manual focus so the camera doesn't focus on dead bugs splattered on the window.
If you’re going to shoot from a car, try to rig up a mount for the camera so you don't have to hold the camera and drive at the same time.


In using the zebra stripes for monitoring exposure I'm finding the choice of shots and what content is in the shot to be important. In this example, where there is Sun and Snow, but also trying to take good shots of Non-Snow area's becomes a difficult task. It setting the exposure to reduce the strips on the snow, and clouds...the foliage and mountain area's turn out rather dark, losing most of their detail. The next time, I'll play more with the white balance settings, as well as, being more particular with the shots I take.

Until next time,

~Cheers~