http://channeldv.com/public/uncompressed.JPG

This picture was taken from an HDTV screen that was hooked directly from my A1. I used 60i SD and annoyed by the jagged lines. I tried a Sony Z1, almost the same problem. I just wonder if this is the way it is, or something wrong?

That looks pretty bad to me. However, if I had to guess I'd say the HDTV isn't doing a very good job of scaling the image up to HD resolution. SD material looks pretty bad on my HD LCD screens also. Remember, you only have 720x480 (or 720x576 PAL) pixels to work with. The TV needs to enlarge that to 1920x1080 (or whatever the native resolution is). Since those numbers don't divide evenly there are always some scaling artifacts.

Aside from that, I haven't been all that impressed by the quality of my Z1 when shooting in SD mode. It looks better to my eyes when shooting HDV and downconverting via firewire when capturing.

What is the resolution of the TV screen? If it is 1366x768 then it could be taking your 1080i video, deinterlacing by discarding one field, which gets it to 540p, and then upscaling to 720p. This would result in artifacts such as the ones you are seeing, although I have to say these are very rough.

Richard

It's because it is SD content.

Shoot HDV and try it or go into the TV menu area and select
one of the SD display options.

What is the resolution of the TV screen? If it is 1366x768 then it could be taking your 1080i video, deinterlacing by discarding one field, which gets it to 540p, and then upscaling to 720p. This would result in artifacts such as the ones you are seeing, although I have to say these are very rough.

Richard

The TV is just a regular plasma 42" 1080i, so I assume it's 1920x1080. The thing is: when it plays regular commercial DVD it's just nice and smooth. I don't get why there is such a difference....

OK, I just tried hooking up to an old CRT TV, the result is the same, and I tried a commercial DVD it showed smooth picture.....

how are you connecting the a1 to the tv? i believe that the only way to get true hd qualty video out of the camera is to hook it up to the tv via component cables rather than the bnc cable. just a thought.

That's unfortunate.

I've stated many times that SD on the A1 is next to useless.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, most people won't be looking at the lines
with the race cars zooming around. Just shoot HDV in the future and downconvert. You will get a better picture.

Yes you are absolutely right Eric, I concluded that SD (A1 as well as Z1) is pretty crappy too. Most of the times I can bring the footage back to my digital studio to do editing, but some other times clients just want the tape with SD footage right on the spot, in this case I have to shoot SD. Although I never got any complaints, I just feel unhappy with the artifacts rendered by A1 SD......

Oh by the way, do you shoot HDV in 60i, 30f, or 24f?
People constantly say that 24p is more filmic, but through my testing the filmic look comes from right exposure, right luminance, and all the color configurations, nothing to do with frame rate or the way of scan. But it's just my personal opinion...

Why do you say SD on A1 is crappy? To me it looks much better than any prosumer SD cam I have worked with. We are doing almost all our shooting at 16:9 SD with XH-A1 and no client has complaned yet. Actually we are getting clients used to having digibeta originals.

That's unfortunate.

I've stated many times that SD on the A1 is next to useless.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, most people won't be looking at the lines
with the race cars zooming around. Just shoot HDV in the future and downconvert. You will get a better picture.

I just cannot agree with this. I have shot many projects using SD 30f and the picture is wonderful.

The TV is just a regular plasma 42" 1080i, so I assume it's 1920x1080. The thing is: when it plays regular commercial DVD it's just nice and smooth. I don't get why there is such a difference....

It should be noted that commercial DVDs are typically encoded with 24P content and are displayed as progressive frames. Upscaling a progressive image on a 1080i set is likely to provide a superior picture than upscaling an interlaced standard definition picture.

Not saying this to "excuse" the A1 per se, but it is important to note that comparing SD/60i to SD/24P footage on your television is similar to comparing apples and pears.

Why do you say SD on A1 is crappy? To me it looks much better than any prosumer SD cam I have worked with. We are doing almost all our shooting at 16:9 SD with XH-A1 and no client has complaned yet. Actually we are getting clients used to having digibeta originals.

Well this is what my thread is all about. Please take a look at my picture. I am trying to find out why it looked so rough. Again, I didn't do any compression, I just shot in 16:9 SD 60i, then hooked up directly to the TV. I used RCA cables though, I don't think the cable is responsible.

I used RCA cables though, I don't think the cable is responsible.

Mmmm... you don't mean the composite video ouput that sends the video out over the yellow RCA cable right? I must have missunderstood, long day...

Mmmm... you don't mean the composite video ouput that sends the video out over the yellow RCA cable right? I must have missunderstood, long day...

I meant the composite cable with yellow RCA jack that came along with the camera... :-)

I meant the composite cable with yellow RCA jack that came along with the camera... :-)

Well, now then we're talking about an interlaced video being piped across a cable that supports around 240 lines of resolution, then upscale that entire questionable video signal to 1080i and... well, there you go :)

Also, watching a commercial DVD on an HDTV connected via component or HDMI is going to look gorgeous. The DVD player, if it's one so enabled, is going to upconvert to HD, whereas the component yellow cable is going to be piping pure SD.

C

Well, now then we're talking about an interlaced video being piped across a cable that supports around 240 lines of resolution, then upscale that entire questionable video signal to 1080i and... well, there you go :)

I hope you found what my problem is :-), however, let me post another picture:
http://channeldv.com/public/mpg2compressed.JPG

This one was taken from the same TV with a component cable connected to the DVD. The video was compressed to mpeg2 using Cinema Craft Encoder (the most expensive and the best software encoder out there), but the result is pretty much the same. Another enlightenment please :-)

are these lines visible in the original footage when viewed on your computer monitor when editing?

The TV is just a regular plasma 42" 1080i, so I assume it's 1920x1080. The thing is: when it plays regular commercial DVD it's just nice and smooth. I don't get why there is such a difference....

There is 0% chance your 42" Plasma is 1920X1080, no such thing.

If it is 0 to 2 years old it is probably 1024X768.

If it is 1 to 3 years old it is probably 852X480.

OK, here is a pic I captured from my NLE:
http://channeldv.com/public/original.bmp
The wires are still jagged. Any comment?

The flag isn't looking too good either.

Shoot HDV and downconvert.

Shooting SD with the A1 is heresy.

my guess is that the wires were twisted. it is very rare that cables that are hung are just hanging and not twisted around a guide wire. either that or it is interlacing artifacts. either way this means that it is part of your source footage and not an artifact that is introduced by compression or the tv.

my guess is that the wires were twisted. it is very rare that cables that are hung are just hanging and not twisted around a guide wire.

Hehe, this is the New England Style wire hanging.....

here is another pic using Sony Z1U,
http://channeldv.com/public/original_z1u.bmp

So can I say this problem is a universal problem with all HDV camera when SD is used?

here is another pic using Sony Z1U,
http://channeldv.com/public/original_z1u.bmp

So can I say this problem is a universal problem with all HDV camera when SD is used?


That's awful.

"Hehe, this is the New England Style wire hanging....."

I don't see any witches dangling from them?

http://channeldv.com/public/original_z1u2.bmp
this is a better pic with Z1U, I deinterlaced the still....

The TV is just a regular plasma 42" 1080i, so I assume it's 1920x1080. The thing is: when it plays regular commercial DVD it's just nice and smooth. I don't get why there is such a difference....

Sorry my question wasn't relevant. Didn't notice you were using SD.

Richard

There is 0% chance your 42" Plasma is 1920X1080, no such thing.



Hi Jeff. Why do you say this? We have these "Full HD" plasma sets for sale in Singapore. They're not as common as Full HD LCDs but you can get them no problem.

Richard

Panasonic makes some nice ones.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/487966-REG/Panasonic_TH_42PZ700U_TH_42PZ700U_42_Plasma_Television.html

"Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam
There is 0% chance your 42" Plasma is 1920X1080, no such thing."

I hope Jeff doesn't gamble.

Yes you are absolutely right Eric, I concluded that SD (A1 as well as Z1) is pretty crappy too. Most of the times I can bring the footage back to my digital studio to do editing, but some other times clients just want the tape with SD footage right on the spot, in this case I have to shoot SD. Although I never got any complaints, I just feel unhappy with the artifacts rendered by A1 SD......

The A1 in SD mode takes simply beautiful pictures....better than any SD cam I have yet used.

Your plasma if a new "1080P" model, would have 1920 X 1080. If it's a couple years old, it'll be 1078 X 768 or similar.That still produces a stunning image.

The only way you can judge SD quality is to look at it with a SD monitor. XH-A1 SD looks just about perfect on a pro SD monitor and normal SD CRT TV set. It it looks bad on HD LSD screen there is something happening with the upscaling, interlacing, cables etc. which has nothing to do with the camera itself.

The A1 in SD mode takes simply beautiful pictures....better than any SD cam I have yet used.

Your plasma if a new "1080P" model, would have 1920 X 1080. If it's a couple years old, it'll be 1078 X 768 or similar.That still produces a stunning image.

While I don't want to dispute what is a beatiful SD image, I too will say that my experience shooting SD 16:9 on the Canon A1 is also awful. The same type of jagged lines occured and pretty much ruined the footage. My way of getting by this, just shoot in HD and downconvert from my NLE. Honestly the footage looks like it was shot from a completly different camera (with the NLE downconvert looking so much better).
If you want to chalk it up to user error, so be it, but I havn't found a magic button on the camera to give SD footage a clean look. . . only jagged lines everywhere.

Ok Stefan, at least I know other fellows have the same jagged line problem with A1 (possibly most other HDV cameras) SD 16:9, I am not alone now.

I found downconverting with the camera is quite decent, and time saving....

The only way you can judge SD quality is to look at it with a SD monitor. XH-A1 SD looks just about perfect on a pro SD monitor and normal SD CRT TV set. It it looks bad on HD LSD screen there is something happening with the upscaling, interlacing, cables etc. which has nothing to do with the camera itself.

Please take a look at this picture: http://channeldv.com/public/original.bmp
This was taken from my NLE system, and nothing to do with monitor, you can see the jagged wires all over.

And this camera angle is done with a Sony Z1U, pretty much the same problem.
http://channeldv.com/public/original_z1u2.bmp

The image looks deinterlaced. Check your editing settings.

Panasonic makes some nice ones.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/487966-REG/Panasonic_TH_42PZ700U_TH_42PZ700U_42_Plasma_Television.html

"Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam
There is 0% chance your 42" Plasma is 1920X1080, no such thing."

I hope Jeff doesn't gamble.

Richard & Eric:

I guess I am about 4 or 5 months behind the times. That is the only one I have ever seen. Since someone now makes that panel, I guess several mfgs will start putting out 1920X1080s in 42" plasma.

I still say there is 0% chance the OPs is 1920X1080.

When I say the only way to judge the image is a proper SD monitor, I mean it. Feed the SD signal straight from camera to regular SD CRT TV or a pro monitor. XH-A1 is a video camera meant to shoot interlaced television video. If the signal is fed to ANYTHING else (NLE, computer display, large panel LCD TV etc) it is not standard display anymore and conversion, non-standard settings like deinterlacing, wrong field order, upscaling etc can wreck havoc of the picture. And that is not the CAMERA'S fault!!!!

Bottom line: If the SD looks bad, there is something wrong with the display chain.

While I don't want to dispute what is a beatiful SD image, I too will say that my experience shooting SD 16:9 on the Canon A1 is also awful. The same type of jagged lines occured and pretty much ruined the footage. My way of getting by this, just shoot in HD and downconvert from my NLE. Honestly the footage looks like it was shot from a completly different camera (with the NLE downconvert looking so much better).
If you want to chalk it up to user error, so be it, but I havn't found a magic button on the camera to give SD footage a clean look. . . only jagged lines everywhere.

That shouldn't be.....the cam is certainly capable, in my experience anyways, of delivering excellent SD footage, without any sort of jagged lines. My point was, that owners of the A1 should not settle for such SD performance issues because it is not, in my experience, normal or characteristic of the cam.


I use my cam for my business, and shoot mostly SD, and if my cam did that, well....I would consider getting Canon involved and have them look at the cam. Don't acceot this as normal behavior of the cam--it isn't.

It’s not my worth my time or investment to shoot SD on a native HDV cam. Factor in the archive potential, superior quality, and broader spectrum of uses – the fact that people are actually shooting content in SD with the A1 is beyond me.

SD broadcast is all I do. There is nothing wrong in my display chain or my capabilities. There is nothing wrong with my camera- except by design. I preformed extensive tests in every mode before deciding to use the A1 professionally. Since then, I’ve spent hundreds of hours behind it and can confidently say that its SD options are unacceptable.

Depending on what you are shooting, you can achieve clean images much of the time in SD- but not all of the time. Shooting HDV is what it was designed for and it has proven itself 100% of the time. Doing anything less is compromising your content and simply not worth it… especially when down converting is just as easy.

For those who have not experienced these issues- you are either not shooting enough, not even using 60i, or throwing so many contraptions on the end of it, you have no idea what the cameras native footage even looks like anyway. For some of you… all of the above.

This issue isn’t exclusive to the A1 either. As Alan Roberts, BBC Research states:

“I know of no HD cameras (even up to the broadcast models) that work properly as an SD camera. The reason is that, when used with HD lenses, they produce HF resolution, even in SD mode. This high-frequency content should be suppressed in the down-conversion process, but isn't, except in a very few top-end cameras. The h-f stuff gets handled wrongly in the cheap down-converters in the cameras, resulting in spatial aliasing that worries video compressors quite a lot and gives the pictures a worrying "busy" quality on edges. The cheaper the camera, the worse the effect (and I have plenty of lab-test evidence for saying this).”

For his research on the XHG1 and A1
http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp-pdf-files/WHP034_ADD25-Canon-XHG1.pdf

Page 16 section 3.2.2

I'm going to go with Eric on this one. The Canon A1 is an HD camera. Much of the content I deliver is in SD resolution, however I have found there too be too much to lose to shoot in SD with a native HD camera. The purpose of my post wasn't so much to point out the SD problem with the A1 (I personally could care less if the A1 shot pixel vision resolution in SD) I bought an HD camera to shoot HD. So, to the OP, here is my suggestion, since everyone seems to have mixed opinions of SD, just save yourself the headache, shoot HD, donwconvert in camera or in post and live with the much better results you end up with shooting HD on a native HD camera.

Um, this is just me thinking but here goes. The wires, as displayed in the last image posted are two cables twisted around one another and therefore do actually appear "jagged" even live with the naked eye. If you notice all other linear features in the last grab posted are nice and crisp. In my humble opinion you just picked the wrong feature to use as the topic in this post. The initial image you posted had issues all over it.