I hear a rumor on HVX200a at InterBEE.
If it does come out, my company booth is located right close from Panasonic, so I can provide thorough report.

I wonder if Panasonic would make HVX200a equip with AVC-Intra, man, if that happens, man. That is wishful thinking, though. I guess they will make some improvements on CCD? Just as they did on DVX series migration?

A possible improvement! It would be nice to see intra and SD/HD capabilities!

What rumor?

AVC-Intra in a $6K cam?

I, for one, don't think so.

Rumor is HVX200a from pretty trusty source, the same kind of source that let us share my early video clips. And AVC-Inta is my wish. That is all.

Well, they set a clear difference between HPX555 and above on that AVC-Intra board can be installed or not, my wishful thinking won't realize, but Panasonic will have to do something to rival the XDCAM EX hype.

My predictions/picks:

HD-SDI
1080 Full HD Chips 1/3

Pal/NTSC compatible

P2 only for HD, SD for SD (panasonic created SD, I think)

1080PN recording.

Black body

LCD flip.

4 XLR inputs.

Fixed Lens- 1.4 to 1.8 max apperture

Variable frame rates for 1080p

Just my guesses :)

. . . Panasonic will have to do something to rival the XDCAM EX hype.You may want them to, but nothing says they will. The HVX200's design is probably at least three years old. An incremental upgrade (including, for example, an LCD flip) is a nice start, but what Panasonic needs to do to compete with every new feature on Sony's cameras is to produce a camera with half-inch or larger imagers (preferably global-shutter CMOS), a removable lens, 1080pN, variable frame rates at 1080p, 10-bit (or greater) 4:4:2 or 4:4:4 (via something like AVC-Intra or a native Hydra-like capability), and HDMI or HD-SDI. This would be much more than an "a" upgrade.

Top of my wishlist is a cleaner image. The noise levels (when gain is used) on this cam are excessive IMO. Right now my HVX200 is on a very short rope -- it doesn't cut it for many shooting situations I engage in. I'm thinking of selling it and sadly ditching P2 if I don't hear some definitive HVX-upgrade news soon.

What both of you are saying is kind of covered by upper models, so it seems like Panasonic has to restructure the distribution of the features among the whole lineup. I'm thinking some of the electronic features can be covered with low-cost model, but I would think Pana will always differentiate from the upper models by the image quality?

If Pana put AVC-Intra to all of P2HD cams then I won't worry about other formats including ProRez422 at least for up to 1080 formats.

I, and probably many others, wouldn't really want AVC-intra on the HVX-200. It is reportedly a bear to edit with, requiring high-end computer equipment and longer times. A Panasonic rep at the NAB last April said he didn't expect that they would be adding AVC-intra to the HVX because the processor runs very hot and it would be difficult to keep cool in such a small camera.

I, and probably many others, wouldn't really want AVC-intra on the HVX-200. It is reportedly a bear to edit with, requiring high-end computer equipment and longer times. A Panasonic rep at the NAB last April said he didn't expect that they would be adding AVC-intra to the HVX because the processor runs very hot and it would be difficult to keep cool in such a small camera.Both of these issues are not insurmountable. Why would you not want the feature if, manufacturing technology permitting, it didn't add significantly to the cost of the camera? My concern is that there has been, to my knowledge, no public mention of plans for implementation of AVC-Intra quality levels above 10 bit and 4:2:2, even though H.264/AVC theoretically supports 4:4:4 up through 14 bits at 4K resolution.

Panasonic today announced the price of 32GB P2 card (about double price of 16GB, alright pana!) and the new DVCPRO HD deck, AJ-HD1800. No sign of new HVX200 at this moment.

Jan C has repeated stated that there won't be any changes for the HVX200 any time soon.

Jan C has repeated stated that there won't be any changes for the HVX200 any time soon.That could mean that Panasonic is concentrating on a new, sub-$10K model.

They could be, and that would be interesting to see. But if I was to bet, I'd say that their energies are more likely to be spent on lower cost models.

They overhauled their mid range two years ago. This year they overhauled their high-end range. In the meantime the low end is looking pretty long in the tooth... they only have one tiny HD model below the HVX in their whole lineup, the rest is all standard-def (DVC30, DVC60, DVX). I expect we'll see more action in the low-cost arena before we see another mid-range model.

Barry,

I would be giving reports on InteBEE, my booth is right behind Panasonic,

Should have some actions going.

That could mean that Panasonic is concentrating on a new, sub-$10K model.

If they want to keep up, they need to be!

1/2" chips under $7,000 with full 1080 resolution makes the HVX-200 look like a second place camera.

Sony has created a family of cameras where you could get big ones and small ones and they will offer similar output, great for a migration to HD.

Panasonic offers this as well, but the big ones have a better image than it's little brother, and the small one offers some compromises.

I use Panasonic cameras right now and would like to continue, but I have to give the nod to Sony right now.

If I buy the HPX500, the HVX200 as a second or third camera IMHO is not quite up to keeping with the HPX500.

Tim,

What I don't understand is why we even have the HPX 500. To me it is only slightly better than the HVX 200. (please don't yell at me if your happy with it I'm happy for you but it just didn't work for what I needed).

Now if Panasonic had taken the HDX 900 (which I have always thought was a great camera), dropped the tape transport, and reworked the case for P2 cards that would have been the deal. That setup could have ruled that section of the market.

K

I agree,

I use the DVC-200 1/2" chip SD camera.

I would love for the HPX500 to be this camera in HD, but it is not.

The DVC-200 cost $8,000 with a decent lens, the HPX500 costs over $20,000 with a decent lens.

To me, the idea of uprezzed chips that Panasonic has stayed with will or do look long in the tooth compared to other cameras.

That makes the 500 look like a transitional tech camera.

If I need to spend over $20,000 on a camera and lens, I would want the chips to be full resolution, especially if there is a camera with full rez decent sized chips for $7,000.

There are plenty of people who dislike Sony and believe Panasonic has often offered better value, but I think Panasonic is a bit behind right now.

Barry,

I would be giving reports on InteBEE, my booth is right behind Panasonic,

Should have some actions going.

Kaku Ill come see you. I am not 100% of day I am going though. But Ill defientely pop in. If youve got your HPX on hand Ill grab some footage of pana with a pana

Great, so we can do online broadcast report from Musetex.
Thanks Noel, and see you on this Saturday, too.

As Barry mentioned, Panasonic will release something in the lower priced range. It is called AG-HMC75, shoulder mounted AVCHD camcorder.
Takes 160 minutes of video on 16GB SD card and it has XLR audio inputs.
Priced 300k yen.

(Information provided from Pontaro at H/DVX Fan site)

Is Red Camera going to be at InterBee Tokyo. It says so on their site but doesn't list the company at the InterBee Tokyo site?

They probably demo at the Apple booth. I know Ted is coming.

My wish is for Pana to drop the tape drive unit off the HVX202 and just concentrate on P2 recording. You have a lighter camera.

My wish is for Pana to drop the tape drive unit off the HVX202 and just concentrate on P2 recording. You have a lighter camera.
I like the tape drive -- I consider it an emergency backup. If only it could record hdv or something...

Tape is only good for SD. I use the HVX202 as a HD camera all the time (if I need only SD - I will go back for my Canon XL2) - hence, the tape unit won't be of any use to me.

Also, tapes are fragile. I have tapes wound up on capstans before - shooting in subzero temperatures. The P2 card poses no such problems (and have posted it elsewhere - that at -15deg C, the camera was still functioning perfectly).

Tape is only good for SD. I use the HVX202 as a HD camera all the time (if I need only SD - I will go back for my Canon XL2) - hence, the tape unit won't be of any use to me.

Also, tapes are fragile. I have tapes wound up on capstans before - shooting in subzero temperatures. The P2 card poses no such problems (and have posted it elsewhere - that at -15deg C, the camera was still functioning perfectly).
I'm talking about an emergency, not for regular use (if the P2 functions stopped working for whatever in the middle of a job). I'd rather have an SD backup than nothing at all.

Didn't InterBee just end? Any news???

I got swampt at my booth and could not walk around at all.
Noel did some researching, so I hope he will make some reports.
There was no news about HVX200a.

Panasonic had few mockups on AVCHD based deck with Bluray recorder.
Also there was a mockup of "tapeless HVX look like" AVCHD cam.
That was about it.
I got to talk to a Panasonic girl who is in charge of image quality of P2 cams and although I'm sure they know but I explained where HVX stands at this point on the light sensitivity and the need of AVC-Intra.

Panasonic had few mockups on AVCHD based deck with Bluray recorder.
Also there was a mockup of "tapeless HVX look like" AVCHD cam.
Was it a P2 camera?

I can see that Bill is definitely very desperate for a new HVX200 (hopefully, with zero noise). I go into Panasonic website - nothing.

I got to talk to a Panasonic girl who is in charge of image quality of P2 cams and although I'm sure they know but I explained where HVX stands at this point on the light sensitivity and the need of AVC-Intra.
Light sensitivity most definately, but AVC-Intra? It may give comparable quality at much lower bitrates, but by all accounts needs a lot more processing power to handle, and is likely to increase power requirements.

If the motive is just to lower bitrates to 50Mbs and thereby increase recording times, why not approach the problem from the other direction? Stay with DVCProHD and move on to cheaper cards, now that CF and even SD have the necessary performance to handle 100Mbs data streams.

Such an approach would lower dramatically the cost/minute (as AVC-Intra would), but wouldn't impact so adversely on ease of editing as AVC-Intra.

David,

Since Panasonic seems to be working on prosumer AVCHD cams (I will post the pic) HVX can be little higher in class to rival PMW-EX1 (price range wise)?
At this point XH G1 costs more than HVX200, so why not Panasonic come out with hand held with larger CCD, better resolution, HDSDI output and AVC-Itra?

I 'm guessing Panasonic is studying the impact of PMW-EX1 and counter act little later. Maybe at NAB?

.........why not Panasonic come out with hand held with larger CCD, better resolution, HDSDI output and AVC-Itra?

I 'm guessing Panasonic is studying the impact of PMW-EX1 and counter act little later. Maybe at NAB?
Larger CCD seems a good idea (better sensitivity) if they can still manufacture the camera to the right size/weight. Better resolution - got to be, now the comparison pics v the EX are around. HD-SDI output - got to have. But AVC-Intra? Maybe, but the likelihood will be it will be 50Mbs, so comparable quality for smaller bitrates, but more complexity in editing. If the only real advantage then is just to double recording times for the same memory cost, why not just design the new camera to use cheaper cards, and maintain the editing ease of DVCProHD?

The biggest SDHC cards are now double what P2 cards were when the HVX200 launched, and the biggest CF match the biggest P2. It would be very easy to then have 4 or 6 SD slots and still have a smaller camera.

As for timescales, I think a NAB announcement is only likely if they are well advanced with a next gen camera design already, and even then a shipping product is likely to be about 12 months away. If the design process is only starting now (in response to the EX), I'd expect it to be a lot longer than that.

David,

AVC-Intra could be easily editable how HDV was more editable in AIC format.
I see Edius already supporting AVC-Intra, so I'm expecting companies like Blackmagic Design aiming to make their video products compatible with AVC-Intra. It is all wishful thinking. 50Mbps version of AVC-Intra is 4:2:0, so I hope to see 100Mbps AVC-Intra gets popular as P2 cards can be utilize the bandwidth and format.

David, do you own any P2 card equipment?

I
Also there was a mockup of "tapeless HVX look like" AVCHD cam.
Do you have a picture of it by chance? WHat did it record to?

If the motive is just to lower bitrates to 50Mbs and thereby increase recording times, why not approach the problem from the other direction? Stay with DVCProHD and move on to cheaper cards, now that CF and even SD have the necessary performance to handle 100Mbs data streams.

Such an approach would lower dramatically the cost/minute (as AVC-Intra would), but wouldn't impact so adversely on ease of editing as AVC-Intra.

Sorry, but AVC Intra is a codec which was agreed upon by almost every manufacturer. There is a reason for this and storage capacity is not one of them.

If you've ever seen AVC side by side to HDV sourced from uncompressed HD, (or even a consumer AVC camera shooting next to a HDV Prosumer camera, then you will Definitely be able to tell the difference. The codec in itself is not only more efficient, but much more robust in a variety of environments and shooting modes, be it high motion, or static.

Long GOP is a good format to deliver most of the time, but too much money and time was invested to let HDV go for Intra. This is why we see Sony hammering the market with HDV is these last 2 Sony models are in fact that last ones to be released.

AVC is the future, its already been decided...

Bill,

Finally got time to browse the P2 and extracted some stills. It's SDHC.

http://www.onebikeguy.com/KakugyoBlog/Photo_Archives/Pages/Photos.html

Bill,

Finally got time to browse the P2 and extracted some stills. It's SD.

http://www.onebikeguy.com/KakugyoBlog/Photo_Archives/Pages/Photos.html
SD, as in...? P2 cards are made up of SD cards. Do you mean it's a compact flash unit?

SD, as in...? P2 cards are made up of SD cards. Do you mean it's a compact flash unit?

Edit:SDHC I should have said.

I missed the Red camera demo, so, was a bit disappointed but I hope to get another try, say maybe NAB. Good seeing you there!

miniSD I should have said.
Not familiar with it. I wonder if Panasonic is confining P2 to higher end stuff?

Dean,

Thanks for stopping by and bringing people!

Not familiar with it. I wonder if Panasonic is confining P2 to higher end stuff?

It looks like Panasonic is seeing AVCHD as the comparable market as HDV? Maybe there's a plan to have higher transferring rate in the AVCHD format?

Not familiar with it. I wonder if Panasonic is confining P2 to higher end stuff?

It's the same card they use for the consumer AVCHD cams and for saving settings of HPX and HVX.

P2 is for the broadcast lineup. AVC-HD is an inherently long-GOP design, and Panasonic doesn't think that's appropriate for a broadcaster to use, so AVC-HD is aimed at the consumer and "professional" lineup. It's taken me a bit to figure this out, but Panasonic apparently ranks them in terms of:

Lowest: Consumer
Mid-range: Professional
Top-end: Broadcast

You'll see AVC-HD coming to the Professional line; it's already started (sort of) with the little HSC1U. But the mockup they showed at Interbee looked exactly like a DVX100 (albeit one that'd been beaten with an ugly stick) so I expect that it'll be the first "real" AVC-HD camera that takes advantage of what the format is capable of.

Near as I can tell, AVC-HD is meant to take on the long-gop HDV and XDCAM-HD codecs; DVCPRO-HD and AVC-Intra @ 50mbps are meant to go against HDCAM, and AVC-Intra @ 100mbps is aimed at HDCAM-SR. (note: there will always be overlap here 'n' there; the HVX200 isn't quite an HDCAM competitor, but the format is, so the lines aren't quite as clearly drawn as I've laid 'em out here.)

Wow, is that camera ugly? It looks like mutant love child of a DVX and HVX that met at a concert, got drunk, then split up.

Dan

AVCHD handheld mockup would be great for me to provide class solution for schools. I hope they would include 24p choice. Barry, do you know of any company has included 24p in a AVCHD cam or is 24p included in the AVCHD specification?