How difficult is it to use the EX1 for 4:3 projects?
Are there guides in the viewfinder for example that show the 4:3 area?
Also, when editing (currently FCP 5.1, soon FCP 6) ,are there any reframing issues I should be aware of?
At the moment my client base is only interested in SD DVD's,
but since I'm at the point of upgrading my equipment I want something that's futureproof (like my vx1000 which I still use for some projects).
How much better does downconverted SD from the EX1 look than
out-of-the-box 4:3 SD from a PD170/Z1?

The only advantage I can see is you could cut in HD and master DVD's in SD. I'm not sure about the graticule but by cutting in HD you could pan and scan images in a 4x3 SD timeline so it shouldn't be a huge issue.

Just to be clear there is no downconvert on the f/w output, only on the HD-SDI. There maybe on the component/composite output as well - I can't tell. So a downconverted workflow will only work for those with SDI capture capabilities.

Using a downconverted workflow to an NLE makes no sense with this camera. You lose all the xfeer speed advantage of the SxS Express cards, or you have to transcode which results in equally long delays. You would also have an issue clearing off your cards if you didn't have an HD transfer (I would anyway).

As mentioned SDI outputs SD. 4:2:2 no less at either 8 or 10 bit Uncompressed (not sure about that part). EX1 does have 4:3 marks in the display.

I'm thinking of using Telestream Pipeline taking SDI in to either DVCPro50 or IMX50 out (it can also do all I Frame MPEG).

With matching time code, you can cut SD without having to do a render to that, then do an "auto assemble" after inputing the HD off the cards if such a version is needed.

As mentioned SDI outputs SD. 4:2:2 no less at either 8 or 10 bit Uncompressed (not sure about that part).

Its 8 bit.

G

At the moment my client base is only interested in SD DVD's,.......
You could always author the DVDs 16:9 SD, and let the clients player sort out whether to centre cut or letterbox for 4:3 TVs, or give true 16:9 on a widescreen TV. The same as nearly all commercial films on DVD.

Jan, I wouldn't even bother with the EX. What's the use if you output mostly 4x3 SD? Futureproof? The Z1 will be good to go for the next three years at least. After that, sell it and move up.

It's not just the camera but the whole issue of archiving and editing as well. Editing HD is a pain in the b*tt ie so much more expensive and tedious than DV. Going the XDCAM-route is going to cost you a lot more than the cam, as you can read on this forum...

I would get the Z1 which is a great camera for SD- 4:3 OR 16:9. Or HDV. Coming from a VX1000, it should be a treat ;) Before the Z1 I owned a PD-150- and you'll love the Z1 because of its better ergonomics and ease of use. (worse in lowlight, yes, but the gain on the Z1 is very good and will get you through most situations)

At first I bought the Z1 for its HD(V) capabilities, but most of my projects either ask for SD or are much better off shooting/editing SD. The SD pictures look great, at least for my (client's) purposes.
For the documentary I'm working on I shoot HDV but otherwise I will only shoot SD for my clients. No client ever asked me about HD. I deliver on DVD or in some type of web-format. Who needs HD for that?

But if you want great new toy and have the cash- get the EX! I cannot really justify it for myself but am looking for a good excuse. Even then, I will keep my Z1 for most practical -SD- purposes.

Wolf

How much better does downconverted SD from the EX1 look than
out-of-the-box 4:3 SD from a PD170/Z1?

Jan,

Z1U = 540 line rez. pixel shifted. EX1 = 1000 line rez. no pixel shift.

You've got twice the resolution from the get go. I'm sure you will see a noticeable difference, especially downconverted.

Thanks a lot for all your answers.
Good to know that the EX-1 has 4:3 marks in the display.
One reason I'm thinking of getting the EX-1 is because it is tapeless.
With my own camera and lately all other camera's I've been using
I have TAPE problems (Glitches,sound dropout, footage not recognized, etc. etc.). And sticking the card directly from the camera into my MACBookPro seems like heaven to me.
Basically this camera ticks all the right boxes for me (would have preferred
JVC-HD 110 shoulder-model though...).
Now I know that most situations don't ask for HD yet, but I wan't to be prepared for the top end so to speak, and apparantly the EX-1 holds up realy good to grading as well (according to a BBC-techy who said the signal is more robust than that from the HVX-200).
One of my main worries is backups (don't wan't to buy Sony's disc system), probably will have to buy tons of Lacie firewire-drives.
Jeroen Wolf: Your advice about the Z1 seems spot on,
but I thought eding with HD(EX-1) is easier than HDV(Z1)?
(I'm using FCP5.1 now, FCP6 soon).
Lastly: love to have over/undercranking,manual lens/iris .

Jan, I wouldn't even bother with the EX. What's the use if you output mostly 4x3 SD? Futureproof? The Z1 will be good to go for the next three years at least. After that, sell it and move up.


I agree with this notion- if your work is mostly SD and you just want to "futureproof" your footage, then the EX1 is not the camera for you. SD delivery requires a lot of extra work from this camera. That goes double if you are delivering SD 4:3.

I'll deal with the EX, but that's because I am driving my business towards HD only acquisition, with SD DVD being my only SD delivery format at the moment- and I typically deliver that as 16:9 letterbox. In other words, the more HD you do, the more sense the EX1 makes.

For me the EX in 4:3 works only because of the 4:3 guides (its wrong to call them graticules, graticules are etched onto glass in the eyepiece.) I plan to scale the image down so the vertical fits in 480 lines, and just crop the sides. (I doubt that's a unique plan at all.) I doubt I'll use any pan & scan, because 4:3 clients are usually my lowest paying ones, and they won't want any extra time & expense.

I am not a big fan of the Z1- that said, if you already have a Z1 then keep it.

If you are buying a transitional camera, I would suggest the Panasonic HVX200. The HVX200 is, in my opinion, the best camera for SD work anywhere close to this price range- and I would suggest shooting DVCPRO 50 and skipping conversion. I can't spare enough words for DVCPRO 50 4:2:2. You can also keep your DV 4:1:1 workflow if you need it.

Upconversion from a 4:2:2 SD source to HD resolutions looks better than DV- so you have a future-proofing path even if you stay in SD workflows. I've seen HVX200 footage shot in DV50 output to HDCAM SR, and it looked great. I doubt a non-professional would notice the footage in quick takes. DV sticks out quite a bit more and lots of non-pros will notice it. (In my experience at any rate.)

You also get a decent 720p image from the camera. The resolution is a bit on the low end, for HD, but the images look great and intercut well with Viper, Varicam, HDCAM, RED etc., at up to 1080p resolutions. I am not thrilled with the HVX as an HD camera, but its hard to complain at its price point. Well... it was until the EX1 was announced.

I despise the HVX's 1080 mode- stick with 720p and upconvert for any 1080 deliveries if time permits.

About the "BBC Techy" comment about color and how it holds up in grading. The HVX200 has component analog as its best output option., The EX1 has HD SDI at full res. Both are outputting 8 bit 4:2:2- but the EX1 has more resolution, and its digital. So for a tethered workflow the EX1 is much better than the HVX200.

In an untethered workflow for color sensitive applications, the HVX200 is the winner. The difference between the HVX200 on DVCPRO P2 vs EX1 onto SxS XDCAM depends on how far you have to push. If I shoot my shot close to the intended final look then the EX1 will "win" because of the resolution. If you shoot with say a blue cast with high contrast and crushed blacks, and then in post the director or producer comes in and says, "Change that to a rich red, oh and let's get some detail and tonality into the dark areas." Its a different story- 4:2:0 will break.

XDCAM 4:2:2 will be a different beastie, but that isn't here yet. If anyone at Sony is listening, I would love to see XDCAM 4:2:2@50Mbps on the EX1. I bet you can do that via a firmware upgrade.

Someone remarked that editing HD is a pain. I have to disagree. Unless your computer is very antiquated (i.e. 3 years old) you should be fine. I have a two year plus G5 2.7 DP, and it edits HD beautifully. Color, in Final Cut Studio 2, won't work in HD- but that's because I have the default video card which was a bit dated even when new. Pop in a more current video card, like on the G5 2.5 DP I use, and it runs fine. You may also need a bit more disk space. It isn't the big deal some people suggest.

Archiving, well that's easy. Use 8GB cards and archive each card to DVD DL. Done and done. You'll get about 20minuts on a P2 at 720p or about 26minutes on SxS in HQ mode (1080p or 720p)

The EX-1 delivers 8 bit uncompressed 4:2:2 Standard Def out of the SDI port in real time (yes I know the color space is coming from 4:2:0 off the cards). Certainly real time SD out of the SDI port is no worse than real time off of tape.

Now if you're completely firewire based that doesn't help you but for a workstation capable of handling SDI there's no reason why the EX1 wouldn't be a capable Standard Def device . . . with the advantage that if you needed to make an HD version you can "auto assemble" your HD from matching time code from the files that come off the cards.

In other words input and edit in Standard Def in real time. Auto assemble to HD for those clients that need it.

The EX-1 delivers 8 bit uncompressed 4:2:2 Standard Def out of the SDI port in real time (yes I know the color space is coming from 4:2:0 off the cards). Certainly real time SD out of the SDI port is no worse than real time off of tape.

But that is part of the point- real time SDI sucks by comparison to faster than real time with SxS or P2. It sounds like Jan's primary usage will be SD 4:3, so it makes little sense to get an HD only camera- no matter how cool it is.

I guess it depends on how fast one thinks the move to HD will be (as far as his clients go).

All my clients are still SD too. I really like DVCPro50 4:2:2 also. I really am not thrilled by the HVX200 as an HD camera though. When I'm spending that much money (if you're a small business) I try to think not only of today's needs but where I'll be in a year from now.

Of course something better may very well come along in a year from now and that may well be Panasonic's response to the EX1 and then one's year old HVX200 will feel even older.

There's no right answer since it depends on your model but I do think people should be aware that the EX1 can output SD as fast as a tape based camera and I really like 3 1/2" CMOS chips with picture quality that may be a close match to the Sony PDW-350. I also think the lens controls will allow me to shoot more creatively (and I think my clients may see that too). Just my preference.

I guess it depends on how fast one thinks the move to HD will be (as far as his clients go).

Well I agree that timing is critical.

At this stage though, if it is going to take 2 years for half of your clients to move to HD then I think it would be unwise to choose a camera that doesn't natively shoot SD.

I have a a strong preference for the workflow of solid state media. I also like good lens controls, so once again I recommend the HVX200 to people in your position. (Just plan on taping focus- and use the measurements in feet or meters, not the MF number)

My position is different. I have clients that will not accept anything less than HD. I have some clients that specify delivery on HDCAM SR! (I have no clue if I can deal with that financially, using either rental or purchase, so I may lose those clients.) A lot of my existing SD only customers want 16:9 for their DVD's. SD only customers represent 25% of my clients, but only 10% of my revenues.

When I'm spending that much money (if you're a small business) I try to think not only of today's needs but where I'll be in a year from now.

Of course something better may very well come along in a year from now and that may well be Panasonic's response to the EX1 and then one's year old HVX200 will feel even older.

There is always something coming down the development pipeline.

This red hot second I still have an XL-1A in production, and clients still compliment me on its footage.

I can tell you that Panasonic has nothing close to production to replace the HVX200 and "answer" the EX1. If they did they would have announced it to stem sales of the EX1- especially sales that might otherwise have gone to them.

When you get into this class of camera- HVX200 or EX1 it won't matter. Clients will be happy with the images if you handle the camera with any competence. Only the most technical clients will balk at HVX200 footage right now.

Given the work Jan has, or you Craig, and if I were buying in the next few months I'd get the HVX200 and shoot it until the majority of your clients have moved to HD. Then sell the 200 and get a new camera.

The EX1 will look old by then. Heck RED might look dated by then too. (OK I doubt that last bit.)

In the meantime you will have been making money with whatever camera you select.

One last thing, I thought the SD SDI output of the EX1 would always output letterboxed footage. I can't find a reference for that- so it may be an assumption on my part. Does anyone know for sure?

It all depends on what's important in your SD work and business growth.

ex1 vs hvx200 as SD cameras

ex1
better low light performance
better lens control (IMHO)
1/2" chips and larger sensor size
slightly longer record times compared to DVCPro50 (although 4:2:0)
SDI 8 bit uncompressed 4:2:2 out pre MPEG compression for use as Standard Def studio camera.

hvx
DVCPro50 (4:2:2)
records DV 4:1:1 to tape

On the move to HD (which will happen next year for some of my clients not 2 years)
ex1 XDCAM nearly 3x the record time per comperable P2 card (albeit 4:2:0).
HD-SDI 8 bit uncompressed 4:2:2 out for studio cam work

I agree with this notion- if your work is mostly SD and you just want to "futureproof" your footage, then the EX1 is not the camera for you. SD delivery requires a lot of extra work from this camera. That goes double if you are delivering SD 4:3.

I am not a big fan of the Z1- that said, if you already have a Z1 then keep it.

If you are buying a transitional camera, I would suggest the Panasonic HVX200. The HVX200 is, in my opinion, the best camera for SD work anywhere close to this price range

Someone remarked that editing HD is a pain. I have to disagree. Unless your computer is very antiquated (i.e. 3 years old) you should be fine. I have a two year plus G5 2.7 DP, and it edits HD beautifully. Pop in a more current video card, like on the G5 2.5 DP I use, and it runs fine. You may also need a bit more disk space. It isn't the big deal some people suggest.

Archiving, well that's easy. Use 8GB cards and archive each card to DVD DL. Done and done. You'll get about 20minuts on a P2 at 720p or about 26minutes on SxS in HQ mode (1080p or 720p)

Let's start out by saying I am not a cameraman- I do a lot of camerawork and editing. As a cameraman, I'd be anal about the quality of the footage but since I have a different angle on these matters -as a oneman band videoproduction company- I am interested in real life experience and practical, workable solutions.

I AM a big fan of the Z1, and I know quite a few people who are. So if you say you're not a big fan, Alexander, explain yourself! And when you do, keep in mind Jan's clients, because that's relevant here. The EX and the HVX will also be blown away by higher grade camera's, that's not the issue. The issue is what you want done for the most reasonable price- in this case mostly SD.

As far as the comparison to the HVX 200 is concerned- I wanted that camera but it is quite a bit more expensive than the Z1, considering the price of the P2 cards.
The Z1 is now 4100 at B&H, the Panasonic 5200 without P2 cards. So that's at least a 2000 dollar difference. (and how do you get the HD picture into your computer? More investments?) Not really the same price category. Ergo, my choice for the Sony.

(A sidenote: I owned a DVX100, which ergonomically resembled the HVX quite a bit, and the construction ie physical handling is very poor compared to the Z1.) I know you can shoot SD on mini-DV but for HD you need to get the P2 cards. Why get the camera just for SD?

Archiving easy? Just because you say it doesn't make it true. I don't trust DVD's for archiving. Not yet at least. I've had too many DVD's gone bad on me.

As far as editing HD being 'easier' with HD, Jan: both HDV and XDCAM HD is long GOP compression and editing HDV is a pain in the butt with my G5 Quad and 3,5 GB memory.
For that reason I like to shoot DV or DVCAM with my Z1. Picture looks great in my and my clients eyes. I archive on mini-DV. Dirtcheap and reliable.

People attacked the Z1 for supposed artifacts when panning or tilting- never had an issue with that. If you scrutinize frames from video, perhaps you may see something. But I like to judge the video when it's moving, not by its production of stills. (for all practical purposes)

Don't get me wrong, I like people who knitpick every frame- they push manufacturers to deliver the best. But that's a different issue. When deciding what camera to buy, there's a tradeoff between cost and quality. I think the Z1 delivers very well in that respect.

SDI 8 bit uncompressed 4:2:2 out pre MPEG

I'm hoping the XDCAM EX SDI offers 10 bit 4:2:2

Anyone know more on this?

I'm hoping the XDCAM EX SDI offers 10 bit 4:2:2

Anyone know more on this?

I was told by Sony reps that it is 8 bit 4:2:2 via HD SDI. I've also read that on this forum.

I'd like to see documented proof of the SDI specs.

I'm finding conflicting info on this, although the this write up
does not refer directly to SDI specs.

http://dylan.wibble.net/videotv/2007/xdcam-ex.html

Its 4:2:2 8 bit. It is also not a linear curve.

Cheers,
G

I AM a big fan of the Z1, and I know quite a few people who are. So if you say you're not a big fan, Alexander, explain yourself!

You asked me to consider someone else's clients- I can't because I don't exactly have their complete profile and a list of the work they requested.

The Z1 isn't bad as HDV cameras go. If you have one, then there is no reason to step up until the majority of your clients are HD or you are doing heavier post on your footage.

If you are buying today and plan to stay SD for a while with only some HD work then I think the Z1, or any HDV camera, is a bad choice. I would only buy one if I was budget constrained.

Yes the HVX200 is more expensive- but that's because it offers you a better total solution.

DV50 SD at 4:2:2 is much more flexible in post than DV 4:1:1. As you start getting creative and integrating more elements in your composites 4:2:2 matters more and more.

P2 cards add to the costs, but so does tape. Over the life of your camera you will spend much more on tape than you will on P2- especially if the camera is well used in your business. This is true for SxS as well- and hard disk recorders.

DVCPRO HD edits well on a Macbook. Yes I said a Macbook- not a pro. That's because its an intraframe codec with about as much overhead as DV. That Quad G5 you think struggles with HDV would blister on DVCPRO HD.

For the record XDCAM has less overhead than HDV as well... but its still hefty. (That's one reason I plan on working in ProRes timelines) I'd wager that you'd find XDCAM acceptable on your Quad G5- though it certainly would be slower than DV.

So, to sum up I think the HVX200 is best for SD work with some light HD use because

DVCPRO HD is easier to edit than either XDCAM or HDV
DVCPRO 50 footage is far more flexible for effects work
The HVX 200 has lens controls second only to the XDCAM EX in this price range. (Well... maybe the JVC ProHD- but I don't know their pricing.)'
The camera actually shoots an SD format unlike the EX1
Solid state workflow is nice.

I'd like to see documented proof of the SDI specs.

I'm finding conflicting info on this, although the this write up
does not refer directly to SDI specs.

http://dylan.wibble.net/videotv/2007/xdcam-ex.html

That link talks about 14 bit 4:2:2

If that's true then I expect that Sony will be discontinuing its HDCAM SR and HDCAM lines because you can't beat that.

Its probably a typo, after all as far as I know there is no Panasonic HVX202 either.

It could be that the fellow confused the 14 bit a/d conversion for its SDI output specs.

Its good that you moved this into its own thread here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=106287

What about record time, shouldn't that be a significant issue for many people. Unless you have tons of P2 or EX flash cards, record time is significantly limited without a whole infrastructure for offloading cards. The Z1, or preferably the V1, offers recording to tapes at one hour apiece. For long projects, that can be a significant difference, especially once you consider post workflow.

. . . record time is significantly limited without a whole infrastructure for offloading cards.

It may depend on what you shoot.
a) "Whole infrastructure" could be a laptop.
b) 2 16GB cards are 100 minutes. 2 32GB cards are 200 minutes (35mbps - otherwise you're looking at 140 or 280 minutes @ 25mbps).
c) whereas I'd have to stop recording to do a tape change, I can offload one card while the other keeps recording. No gap.

For recording long concert sets or lectures you'd be able to keep going without a gap. For lectures one could go with 25mbps to extend time between offloading a card (while the other continues to record).

For those shoots that go over 60 but under 100 minutes ( or 200 with 32GB cards) there's no "tape" change at all (again longer at 25mbps).

Weddings shouldn't be too difficult since offloading a 16GB card may take about 5 minutes (according to what people are claiming). You might want an assistant to do that though.

In my own experience I've shot enough corporate events and concerts where the tape change would be a problem, probably more so than an offload would be. It's especially annoying if only one camera of a multicam shoot can be feed the audio.

To me the issue is cost. A laptop and 2 16GB cards. If they came out with a card to hard drive system (like P2 Store?) even 2 8GB cards may suffice.

What about record time, shouldn't that be a significant issue for many people. Unless you have tons of P2 or EX flash cards, record time is significantly limited without a whole infrastructure for offloading cards. The Z1, or preferably the V1, offers recording to tapes at one hour apiece. For long projects, that can be a significant difference, especially once you consider post workflow.

I just want to remind everyone that this is supposed to be about 4:3 standard definition workflow for the EX1- and we've gone far astray. Not that I mind meandering around.

Now, if we are still talking about SD workflows, and transitional HD workflows, there are several options.

First off the HVX200 does record DV onto MiniDV tapes. If you feel that tape is your only option then there you have a tape solution.

Second the HVX can use a Focus Firestore and get 100GB of storage, or about 250 minutes of 4:2:2 HD in its 720p/24 mode. It gives about 200 minutes for DVCPRO 50 (that's right more data in a DV 50 SD stream than a DVCPRO 100 HD 24p stream) A Firestore runs about $1700 USD. There is also a 160GB version for $2150. (prices from B&H)

I fully expect a similar solution for the EX1. I don't think the EX puts out XDCAM HQ via firewire, just an "HDV stream input/output" according to the brochure. I hope there is an SDI solution for direct to disk field recording. In the meantime, if the brochure is right, then you have an HDV workflow using existing HDV Focus FS-4Pro units, albeit in HDV mode. Then again, I expect that people using the cameras for long event recording won't be affected by the need for higher quality footage.

Oh, and both the P2 and SxS workflow allows you to hot swap cards for continuous recording, as Craig points out in part above.

Finally there is always a laptop. For the P2 based computers an old Powerbook G4 is ideal for offloading footage onto a firewire drive. For the EX1 a new MacBook Pro is ideal.

If you have an assistant editor they can log and transfer the files for you on set instead of doing straight data dumps. It takes longer but then your footage is really ready to edit once it gets to the editor. For film style work this is the best possible workflow right now.

I want to make this clear- the longer the project the more you need your footage properly logged and transferred prior to editing. Otherwise the editor just spends days sifting through footage looking for the right clips.

Of course if your plan isn't really to edit, but rather to just stitch together long takes to make a single even longer show... then dumping a pile of tapes on the editor's desk is a pretty good solution. I expect this is the case for long speeches, presentations, lectures and performances.

. . .if the brochure is right, then you have an HDV workflow using existing HDV Focus FS-4Pro units, albeit in HDV mode . . .

Sony's portable hard drive unit (DR-60?) will also work with the EX1 (in 25mbps mode out of firewire).

One advantage the HVX does have over the EX1 is that the HVX can record to P2 in Standard Def formats (at 25 or 50mbps) so once you've dumped to laptop or external hard drive you stuff is in SD. While the EX1 can output Standard Def from SDI, that's downconverting from the cards (or straight from the camera head). If you've dumped the HD material to an external hard drive you'll have to downconvert using some other method.