will be better for my work. I need a unidirectional mic as my Canon XL2 mic is a omnidirectional & it records ambience as well as wind. My work is mainly on Birds, so I have to record bird call in true tone.
How about Canon DM-50, anybody used this & what's your view. My budget is arround $450. what all accesories required for better Bird voice recording.

Ashok

These are some of the choices I have made; Audio-Technica AT875R & AT897,
Sennheiser ME66+ K6,
Azden SGM-1000 & SGM 2X.

Fancy meeting you here!

All of your choices are good, as far as it goes. However, one of the things I've discovered with getting bird song is that the best mic in the world isn't much good if you can't get to within 6 - 10 feet of the subject (less, unless it's one very loud bird).

I've tried my ME67/ K6P rig with both a huge Rode boom (ok, but even the dumbest bird doesn't like that being waved in it's direction) and a static mic stand (better if you can place it and retreat to a distance which won't put the bird(s) off, and know, for certain, the bird(s) will definately roost/ perch within earshot of the mic - ie you have some sort of bait/ food).

I've also used my Sennheiser EW100 G2 system with lav, strapped strategically right next to where I have bait, works a treat, but only, again, if you can guarantee the birds will roost/ perch practically on top of it.

A better option (if something of a hassle) would be to look at getting a reflector system - a parabolic dish with a mic holder placed at the "focus" point, usually for a lav. The bigger the dish, the more "reach" it has. The down side is the hassle factor - they're big, heavy (enough), really need a stand in their own right (too big/ heavy to mount on the camera) and yet more stuff to carry about.

The major advantage is that the "reach" can be as much as 300 yards (depending) and they can easily be re - directed, which a static mic can't.

Finding one can be a problem. I believe there's a company in Sweden who turns a couple out (can't recall the name) and there's a company in the States (Crystal Partners) that makes the "Big Ears" & "Little Ears" units. They sell entire kits, reflector, stands, mics, line amps with headphone monitoring, bags/ cases, the whole box of dice.

BUT - they ain't cheap. I seriously looked at getting the "Little Ears" unit a year or so ago, but just couldn't persuade my credit card out of my wallet to face an eye watering $2KUS plus + shipping + duty + NZ sales tax etc etc.

I'm sure there are more reasonably priced units out there, but just haven't tracked any down. Maybe someone will chime in and nominate a couple.


Hope this has been of some use.


CS


PS. The "wind" problem you mentioned can only really be solved with a decent windproofing system. The Rycote Softie is good for general day to day use outside, but if it gets blustery you really need the full blown Windjammer zeppelin with outer dead cat - the "full Monty" for a ME67 will set you back about $1000 NZ or thereabouts - not cheap. A reflector using a lav is far easier and cheaper to protect (purely due to size).

will be better for my work. I need a unidirectional mic as my Canon XL2 mic is a omnidirectional

Actually, the mic that comes with the Canon XL2 is a stereo directional mic.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Chris,
Do you meant to say the shotgun mics are not effiecient at 25', then if that the case can we make parabolic system by our-self.
Can you tell which mic would be better for parabolic system.
Ty, are you sure it's unidirectional b'cos I get lot of ambience from it. Where I can get your book in India

Ashok

Well, it's a stereo mic; two directional capsules aimed to the front. (I have one).

You can look in your mailbox for my book. You can order it online and I will mail it to you.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Not unless it's a Bull elephant charging in your direction - no.

At that range and over, a parabolic system is just about your only hope.

It should be quite within your ability to construct a system yourself providing that the necessary materials are to hand - the parabolic reflector is usually the biggest hurdle. I have stumbled across tutorials for constructing such units on the web, tho' quite a bit of trawling may be required to find them.

As for a mic, well, from memory, the Crystal Partners units use an Omni lavalier (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm mistaken).


CS

Not unless it's a Bull elephant charging in your direction - no.

At that range and over, a parabolic system is just about your only hope.

And don't expect much in the way of audio quality.

And if there's something behind the object you want to capture, don't be surprised if you hear it as well.

Regards,

Ty Ford

http://www.birds.cornell.edu/macaulaylibrary/Contribute/equipParabola.html


OR this:

http://www.amazing1.com/accoustics.htm

OR this:

http://www.mineroff.com/nature/parabolic.htm

Similar situation to when I was looking last year, plenty of entries but not many actual manufacturers/ suppliers.


CS

The first site is definitely a good information & real helper. Are there any books, which gives basics of audio recording & the fundamentals of it. Frankly speaking I'm totally new to this field, can’t understand super-cardioids, lobar pickup pattern so on.
When we go through the ads of the manufacturers, shotguns are definitely good for birdcall. But in practice if we are within 7' distance it's good or else the results are bad, these things can be understand only after using it, but the investment has been made no turn back. In India it's difficult to get what we want. There is neither exchange nor trial runs. Which are the features to be observed while purchasing, depending upon the need-based features is essential.
How to connect lavalieres to my XL2 cam XLR.

Ashok

Well, guess the answer to the first question is already sorted if you've ordered Ty's book. Never read it myself, but am sure from the rave reviews I keep seeing here, it must be pretty good.

The answer to the last question is pretty straightforward as well (I think). A simple (?) stereo 3.5 mm socket to XLR connector should do the job if the connector on the Lavalier is identical to my Senheiser lav.

Quite what pin needs to be connected to what pin is a mystery (shouldn't be, seen it enough times here on DVinfo) but, if I don't need it, I simply don't remember it. Perhaps someone can chime in here?

Quite what the answer to the bit in the middle is has me stumped.

I can only really use my "big" mic's up to about 7 - 8 feet supermax before "issues" make them impossible for bird song. Getting that close means either having the patience of a cat or a tethered bait.

Luckily, the main songbirds here are all nectar eaters, and during the winter when natural sources are practically non existant, it's like shooting fish in a barrel at home, as we hang out bird feeders which dispense sugarwater in vast quantities (averageing 40 plus litres PER DAY!)

The birds are so keen I can get to within a foot or so, if need be.

I don't think you are going to be nearly so lucky.

If you can't predict where the bird(s) are going to be, the radio lav and fixed remote mic are out.

You end up right back at the Parabolic, with all the hassles that go with it.

How to test this beforehand? In your situation, I don't think you can.

If you go for the big shotgun, you'll find it magic for heaps of outdoor stuff where your on - camera mics keep picking up all sorts of unwanted garbage (assuming you can get the mic close enough to the action). BUT, for anything distant they're useless (well, better than on - board but still won't get you what you want).

I personaly think that if you're determined to "do" bird song at more than 10 feet from the mic (at random, without tethered bait and subjects), you have no choice but to go the Parab route, and the best you can get.

The only saving grace of a parab is that the "low frequency cut" due to the small dish diameter should not affect bird song (greatly) unless you're local variety sing baritone, in which case you have a serious problem. To get the lower frequencies requires a dish big enough to adequately reflect them - that's some dish below about 500 Hz.

I would suggest you try (having read the book) knocking up a parab of your own and seeing how it goes with a super el - cheapo lav before deciding what to do further.

Sorry if I can't be any more help at this point.


CS

As has already been said, shotguns are not the panacea for distant recording that many people hope and believe they are. With the exception of the parabolic setup, there simply is no such thing as the sonic equivalent of a telephoto lens. Shotguns get their directionality by being less sensitive to sound arriving from off axis than they are to sounds arriving from in front but they DO NOT do it by magnifying the desired sounds in any way - sound from the sides is supressed but sound from the front is just the same as it is with any other microphone. Less noise coming from the sides does sometimes let you turn up the recording gain but that also turns up the noise as well as the desired sound so that doesn't do anything to further make what you're trying to record any clearer.

The answer to the last question is pretty straightforward as well (I think). A simple (?) stereo 3.5 mm socket to XLR connector should do the job if the connector on the Lavalier is identical to my Senheiser lav.

Quite what pin needs to be connected to what pin is a mystery (shouldn't be, seen it enough times here on DVinfo) but, if I don't need it, I simply don't remember it. Perhaps someone can chime in here?

Unbalanced TS to XLR is TS tip to XLR pin 2, TS sleeve to XLR pin 3, XLR pin 1 left unconnected or jumpered to pin 3. HOWEVER, lav mics might be a different issue because it depends on exactly what we're talking about doing and there's the whole issue of mic powering. Do you want to send the output of a wireless lav's receiver to the camera or are you talking about cutting out the transmitter and receiver from the chain altogether and just using the mic element by itself, plugging it directly into the camera? When I think "lav mic" I'm just thinking of the mic element itself and it may or may not be wireless but a lot of other people would mean an entire mic/trans/rcvr wireless getup when they say "lav."

Funny story:

Shortly after I bought my Senneheiser 816 (used) I was trying it out on the front lawn.

There was a gal more than half a block away (maybe 100 feet or more) getting into her car. I aimed at her, cranked up the gain and was delighted to hear the jingle of her car keys.

Seconds later a car drove between us and because I had the gain cranked up it almost deafened me. :)

A shotgun CAN be useful at distances in exteriors, if the ambient noise is low enough.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Funny story:

Shortly after I bought my Senneheiser 816 (used) I was trying it out on the front lawn.

There was a gal more than half a block away (maybe 100 feet or more) getting into her car. I aimed at her, cranked up the gain and was delighted to hear the jingle of her car keys.

Seconds later a car drove between us and because I had the gain cranked up it almost deafened me. :)

A shotgun CAN be useful at distances in exteriors, if the ambient noise is low enough.

Regards,

Ty Ford
LOL That'll learn ya not to eavesdrop! Thing is, a lot of people think shotguns are somehow magnifying the distant sounds or are somehow more sensitive to them than other mics might be. Of course, we both know that's not true and any benefits you get such as you describe are due to the reduced levels of the undesired ambient sounds compared to the desired sounds letting you turn up the overall gain more. When I was a kid in the stone age, a friend of mine and I put together a parabolic mic from an old plastic Snow Saucer, a cheap mic we found somewhere, and an amp salvaged from a broken record player - amazing that we could listen to normal conversations several blocks away with perfect clarity.

Yes Steve I wanted to connect Lav directly to the cam XLR, is it possible or do I have to attach some other gadgets to it. Can you people tell me which mic would be better for parabolic & can it be attached to XLR.
The focal point is imaginary centre of the sphere/circle/half dome, where the mic has to be installed?
Ashok

Yes Steve I wanted to connect Lav directly to the cam XLR, is it possible or do I have to attach some other gadgets to it. Can you people tell me which mic would be better for parabolic & can it be attached to XLR.
The focal point is imaginary centre of the sphere/circle/half dome, where the mic has to be installed?
Ashok

We don't have enough information to really answer your question about how to connect the lav to the camera since you haven't said exactly what mic you're considering. Lav mic heads often come with a variety of configuration options - some have one of several types of connector intended to plug into a wireless transmitter and draw their power from it. Others may have a connector for a conventional XLR cable and an internal battery in the connector to supply their power. Others might have a conventional XLR and draw power from the phantom supply on the camera or mixer. In many cases, professional mics such as Countryman, Tram, Sanken, etc can be ordered with your choice of connector for your particular application and some have interchangeable connectors.

In a parabolic mic the mic head is positioned at the focus of the reflector in much the same location as the feed horn on a satellite dish. A parabolic shape focuses better than a hemisphere - a spherical section doesn't really have a single focal point but instead forms kind of a diffuse blob. To minimize the interference from sounds coming from the sides, use a cardioid mic head and aim it pointing toward the centre of the dish so it's the back side of the lav that is actually pointed toward the sound source of interest. You'll thus be picking up sound from straight ahead after it's been focussed by the reflector and less of other sounds in the environment arriving from other directions. A search of google on "parabolic microphone" will turn up lots of pictures to give you ideas.

on you mic problem, Ashok.

Taking your opening budget of $450, I've gone back over your options versus requirements again.

No matter how hard I try, I cannot see how even the best shotgun is really going to give you what you want. BUT, every time I seriously look at the parab solution, a little alarm bell goes off which I just can't shake.

The problem I'm having is this. When you trawl the net looking for bird song, you find shed loads of song, but little or no accompanying video. Most of the pictures of "bird song setups" contain person with mic, recorder and headphones. Few, if any, show a camera, even fewer show a video camera.

From memory, you're shooting an XL2, Manfrotto 519 head, 525 sticks, rails and humungous great lens. Quite a handfull in itself, especially if your chosen target is 300 feet away travelling at relatively high lateral speed.

I've just looked up the parameters for the Crystal Partners Big & Little Ears parabs. Both are rated @ 100Hz - 15 kHz (good) with a "pick up pattern" of 30 & 24 inches respectively @ 100 feet (whoa, hold the phone here!).

This means that the tracking of the parab has to be absolutely spot on or the sound is going to be missed.

Can you see what's coming?

Yep, who's going to be tracking the parab whilst you're tracking the camera?

I've never seen you mention working in a team, so, unless you can somehow get the parab to track with the camera, you have a major problem. I believe this may be one of the reasons for the dearth of video acompanying so much recorded bird song.

So, lets go to the tracking. Try as I might, I cannot see how you can mount a parab on your camera/ rail/ lens setup (don't get me wrong, I can envisage the engineering of a mount utilizing the external mic holder, for example). What concerns me is the effect of having a 2 foot diameter, 5 + pounds weight, sail mounted on top of your existing rig.

I'll leave that there and let you and others ponder, and return to that budget.

Given the above, with such a tight budget, I can really only suggest at this point you go super, super cheap, just to see if the engineering and practicality issues can be satisfactoraly overcome. If you can make it a viable option, then think of spending the lions share on bringing the system up to a better standard.

Bottom line, if the parab itself is locally sourced, the engineering done by locals (thus relatively cheap) and a really really cheap mic is used, if it all turns out to be impractical, then there should be enough in the kitty to go to plan (B) - a shotgun of one flavour or another.

Of course, if you are shooting as a team and can get the tracking synchronised (could take some practise) you don't have to worry about the camera mount.


CS

Have given the practicality of the head mounted parab a lot more thought.

On top of the camera seems to be just asking for trouble - you won't be able to see through it, the COG will go through the roof and the entire system will just want to nose dive etc, the slightest breeze will turn that big lens into a shake, rattle and roll machine.

There may just be a way which ameliorates all these issues. If you can get an intermediate plate made to go between the head mount plate and the camera (ie. the intermediate plate is fixed to the camera base, the 519 head plate is fitted to the intermediate plate), then as part of that intermediate plate you have a bracket extending to the right/ left at right angles from the camera, roughly centred on the head pivot point, for a distance of say, a foot.

From the end of that bracket you hang a "U" shaped bracket which holds the parab, which is hinged about it's central COG plane looking side on, with friction fittings at the top (for lateral adjustment and locking) and at the central plane (attitude, ditto).

This has the advantages that:

1. The weight (COG) of the parab is actually below the pivot point of the head/ camera, so does not add to the "above pivot point" COG, which solves the "nose dive" probem.

2. The weight of the parab will tend to even out the mass of the head/ camera system so you should be able to wind down the counterbalance system to compensate. The entire setup should be relatively stable.

3. Wind effects should be somewhat reduced, as the wind effects on the camera will to some extent be counterbalanced by the same effects on the parab.

4. The parab is out of your field of view, so will not restrict your vision. It will also not be in front of the camera, so it will not collide with the tripod during a downwards tilt.

In use, you would need to mount up the entire system, pick a target at a suitable distance, centre the camera lens on the target, then align the parab to also target the same spot for the audio. At significantly different distances forward or back from that set distance there will be some sound fall off due to the two not targetting the same spot, minimised by keeping the dish as close as possible to the camera, without risking collision with the tripod.

Sounds good to me. What do you think?


CS


PS. Good morning!


PPS. You will probably need to get the head mounting plate for the 519 modified to allow for at least 2 X 3/8" mounting bolts to the intermediate plate. Expecting one rediculous 1/4" bolt to hold all the above is really asking a bit much.

I will check with Sennheiser India regarding Lav connectability, here Sennheiser cost 75% more than B&H. (plz do not comment on this, I don't want to deviate from PDmic)
Chris, I would like to work as a team. B'cos with all this gear it’s humanly not possible as you said even slightest breeze can ruin the footage. I have spare 055/701RC2 on that the PDishMic can be mounted.
Passing thought, how about recording the bird call on a recorder & mix it in the post processing/editing. If this is ok then which recorder would be better?

Ashok

... Passing thought, how about recording the bird call on a recorder & mix it in the post processing/editing. If this is ok then which recorder would be better?

Ashok You could certainly use an audio recorder instead of the camera if you wished but that doesn't change anything. Camera versus recorder is just a matter of choice of storage device and won't have any impact on the mic placement issues.

My question before regarding what you want to do with your lav remains ... you mention Sennheiser, are you asking if you can unplug the mic from a Senneiser wireless transmitter you already have and plug it directly into the camera instead or are you asking if you can purchase a conventional hard-wired lav mic and connect it to your camera? If it's the first, what wireless set do you have and what camera?

Exactly I wish to record it on a separate recorder, so that I can use it whenever such situation arrives. B'cos carrying all the equipment by self will be impractical & exhaustive, now onwards prefer to work as team.
I want to purchase the mic & mount it on the cam. Have XL2, EF lenses, Rail, Tripod. Can you tell me, how to avoid the wind sound on my stock cam mic?
Ashok

Good information - I have been one of those of the uninformed who was hoping a good shotgun mic would actually amplify & focus the sound at some distance. I discovered this weekend that apparently I was wrong. I was shooting a kids karate sparring competition from a distance of about 25', with a borrowed camera & shotgun mic, & got very poor results. Since I could not use a boom, nor a lav, and am not prepared to go to the parabolic solution at this early juncture, does anyone have other alternative techniques or suggestions for such an event? Or perhaps I am just trying to get somehting done that is not practical. I am practicing to learn at this point. Thanks, & sorry for the "newbie" question.

Only way I can see to get anything like decent sound under the circumstances you describe would be to drop a couple of mic's from the roof/ beams to hang over the mats, as close to the action as possible.

Putting mikes right to the mat boundaries is not an option, overhead is the only way to go.

Of course, if the roof is 100 feet high, you have another problem..................


CS

Good information - I have been one of those of the uninformed who was hoping a good shotgun mic would actually amplify & focus the sound at some distance. I discovered this weekend that apparently I was wrong. I was shooting a kids karate sparring competition from a distance of about 25', with a borrower camera & shotgun, & got very poor results. Since I could not use a boom, nor a lav, and am not prepared to go to the parabolic solution at this early juncture, does anyone have other alternative techniques or suggestions for such an event? Or perhaps I am just trying to get somehting done that is not practical. I am practicing to learn at this point. Thanks, & sorry for the "newbie" question.

I don't know enough about competitive Karate to have a feel for what distances might be involved. If you could get right at ringside, as close as possible without interfering with the match, how far away would that be? I'm thinking that a shotgun up there, mounted on a pistol grip, aimed by a sound person, and with a cable run back to the camera position might partially solve the problem. It also depends too on just what you're trying to record - speech, shouts, the slap of blows landing and grunts in response, etc. You got to closer to get a good recording of speech than you would a loud shout.

Thanks for the great replies. I had not thought of the ceiling - not applicable in this instance, but a great creative idea for going forward. The pistol mounted shotgun would indeed work for these applications - I need to eventually buy my own mic, for this typr of thing which typr or pattern would be better? I have read of the cardiod & supercardiod, am not sure how significant the difference is.

http://www.telinga.com/
Sassi

Which model do you find better & connecting it to XLR is better or records the call on a recorder & mixes it later. If that the case, which recorder is good. Since you're in hide bird videography & seen those fantastic close up shots. I use my jeep as a hide & designed a hanging bracket with 75 mm bowl to mount it on the window.
In India official prices for all photographic goods are very high,
e.g.. Sennheiser ME66+K6 will cost Rs80K where as B&H sells it Rs20K. XL2 costs Rest 405K.
Rs 40=$1


Ashok

I never used one of those so I can't comment.
I would inquire with the Telinga staff . I am sure that they will offer you the appropriate product to suite your needs and budget.
Their products are used by the leading bird sound recorders.
For lower budget or other options you can go to "Bird Forum"
http://www.birdforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=481
you will need to register but I am sure it will worth the effort
(there is a very knowledgeable person there named Ermine).

Yes I did become a member to it, it's really a very informative like dvinfo. Meanwhile I'm also interacting with Jon Strandberg of Telinga.

Ashok