I am purchasing a SD 302 mixer and a SD 702T recorder. When I am only recording two channels, does the 302 mixer add any real functionality or should I just use the 702T recorder by itself?

Looking at the specs, the 702T provides phantom power and has limiters. Sound Devices says: "While the 702T is a very capable recorder by itself, it truly excels when used in conjunction with an outboard audio mixer such as Sound Devices’ own 442 or 302."

But when I'm not mixing, shouldn't I limit the amount of electronics the signal goes through?

My set up will be a double system going to both an HV-20 (or XH-A1) and the 702T.

P.S. One obvious question that just became very apparent is can you record double without a mixer?

Sorry for all these simple questions, but it's going to take about three weeks for the components to arrive. THANKS MUCH!

hey, snap! I now have a 702T to back-end my 302 (previously a Fostex FR2).

one reason my 302 won't be going anywhere is it can provide T-power which the 702T cannot (I have 415T and a 416T and haven't splashed out on adapters). Also, the L/C/R switches on the 302 are a lot more immediately accessible than the 702T's rotary menu.

you don't "need" a mixer (I was a Nagra 4.2 mixerless one man show back in the day) just like you don't "need" timecode.

the 702T also lacks faders, but you might find just the gain controls + limiters are adequate if you wanted to ditch the 302. you'll also be losing an additional channel (3 if you count the configurable return) and lot of flexibility.

If it was a toss up between losing the 302 or losing the 702T then, sure, the 302 would have to go.

As for introducing additional noise, I use line between the 302 and 702T so it's not particularly an issue.

I have both SD302 and SD722 and have not used them together so far. When I have used SD722 the SD302 has been tied up to a camera. SD722 has been more or less running on its own fed by different set of mics, at 24 bits to give some headroom safety, converted and adjusted to 16/48 afterwards.

The plus side of using them together would be better meter visibility, adjustable limiters and better ergonomics (exepting the bulk) in general, better monitoring options and of course 3 mic lines in.

I do not think there would be any quality concerns, both machines have better s/n ratios than any video audio standard. Besides feeding line signal from SD302 to SD702 bypasses the mic preamps of the recorder, so the signal does not go thru more processing, just via 2 more XLR plugs and a piece of cable.

I think it is possible to get line signal out of SD702 while recording, so it could be used as a pass-thru recorder/mixer of sorts.

I...
My set up will be a double system going to both an HV-20 (or XH-A1) and the 702T.

P.S. One obvious question that just became very apparent is can you record double without a mixer?

...!


"Double system" doesn't mean the audio is recorded twice. It merely means that one device, the camera, is recording picture while a separate device, the audio recorder, is recording sound, then the two independent recordings are married together in post production using slates or timecode to align them. When shooting double system with film cameras it's not even possible to record sound to camera. (The rare single-system exceptions were sound Super-8 cameras sold back in the 60's and earlier some sound-capable 16mm cameras made for the old newsreels). Video carried forward the film conventions so yes, you can do double system without a mixer simply by feeding the mics directly to the audio recorder mic inputs and not sending audio to the camera at all. The camera won't be recording any scratch or guide tracks for you but in a classic double system setup, whether the picture is being shot on film or on video, the camera doesn't record any audio anyway.

I am purchasing a SD 302 mixer and a SD 702T recorder. When I am only recording two channels, does the 302 mixer add any real functionality or should I just use the 702T recorder by itself?
THANKS MUCH!

I think you have to look closely at whether or not you will be mixing. When I work as a mixer, there are many times when I need to make small adjustments during a shot even if only one person is talking.

Having the knobs easily accessible, as they are on my Sound Devices 442, allows that to happen. The input controls on my Sound Devices 744T aren't as accessible, although I have done it.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Having the knobs easily accessible, as they are on my Sound Devices 442, allows that to happen. The input controls on my Sound Devices 744T aren't as accessible, although I have done it.


I agree 100% with what everybody here points out. When I bought my Deva, I sold my Wendt X4. The current Deva models (5.8) allow you to mix and adjust all the levels with handy large pots on the front of the unit. My Deva IV, only allows four channels to be adjusted. If for some reason (and I can't think of any over the shoulder work I've done where this is the case), I had to mix more than the four channels, then I would be trouble since the other four channels are adjusted through on-screen faders.

If you feel comfortable adjusting the 702 levels without a mixer, go for it. However, if I recall Tascam put the same level adjustment on the unit that they had on their DA-P1. There would be no way I would use the DA-P1 adjustment knobs to adjust levels during an interview, I used a mixer for that. But, try and see if you feel comfortable without the mixer. If so, who cares what we think. ;-)

Wayne

"Double system" doesn't mean the audio is recorded twice. It merely means that one device, the camera, is recording picture while a separate device, the audio recorder, is recording sound, then the two independent recordings are married together in post production using slates or timecode to align them. When shooting double system with film cameras it's not even possible to record sound to camera. (The rare single-system exceptions were sound Super-8 cameras sold back in the 60's and earlier some sound-capable 16mm cameras made for the old newsreels). Video carried forward the film conventions so yes, you can do double system without a mixer simply by feeding the mics directly to the audio recorder mic inputs and not sending audio to the camera at all. The camera won't be recording any scratch or guide tracks for you but in a classic double system setup, whether the picture is being shot on film or on video, the camera doesn't record any audio anyway.That's pretty embarrassing. I've been using the wrong terminology to describe what I'm trying to do.

I'd like to simultaneously record to both the camera and the recorder, so I have the option of using the camera's auido track as a guide for synching the recorder's sound with the video. I'll also have the camera's audio track as a backup.

What would be the correct terminology to describe this? And can it be done accurately without using a mixer and just the 702T? I read in Petri's post and SD's webiste that the 702T does have analog line out.

Thanks very much.

Can't go wrong with either.

In certain situations I send from the 702T's Line 1 Tape Out (minijack) to wireless transmitter. Anyone in range who wants the signal can have it.

That's pretty embarrassing. ..... I read in Petri's post and SD's webiste that the 702T does have analog line out.


I'm also a bit embarrassed, I kept thinking that you had the Tascam HD-P2, I'm not sure why I was confusing the two, but I was... Anyhow, ignore my post on the adjustments, they aren't applicable to you. ;-)

Wayne

That's pretty embarrassing. I've been using the wrong terminology to describe what I'm trying to do.

I'd like to simultaneously record to both the camera and the recorder, so I have the option of using the camera's auido track as a guide for synching the recorder's sound with the video. I'll also have the camera's audio track as a backup.

What would be the correct terminology to describe this? And can it be done accurately without using a mixer and just the 702T? I read in Petri's post and SD's webiste that the 702T does have analog line out.

Thanks very much.

I don't know if there is any standard terminology. I'd call it single system with external backup if you plan to primarily use the camera audio or double system with camera scratch tracks if you plan to primarily use the 702's audio, I suppose.

The 702t does have several analog output options at both balanced pro and unbalanced consumer levels and track assignment monitoring is one of the configuration options. You can send the inputs channels directly to the output bus, send the recording track assignments to the output bus as recorded, or monitor the tracks post recording to the output bus (the last introduces about a 12 second delay between the input and output signals, the first 2 configurations have no delay). So setup the 702 to send track assignments A & B to its output bus and send your choice of output over to the camera. It'll be line level at either 0dBu or -10 dBv, depending on the output you select, so you need to pick the appropriate input to your camera for it

Well, if you're recording M/S stereo, which I do, the 302 gives you the ability to control the apparent stereo spread by adjusting the relative gain of inputs 1 & 2.

Same with SD722 (702). Even more convenient, with line 2 pot.

Sorry guys, one more ?.

Since the 702T already has limiters, do the 302's limiters add any extra benefit or are they essentially redundant?

Peter, they are redundant. However, if you're feeding the audio from the 302 to the 702, you would want to enable the limiters on the 302 and disengage/disable the limiters on the 702. That way you don't run the risk of overdriving/clipping the preamp stage in the mixer.

Wayne

If I am corret the limiters in 302 are adjustable, in 702 not. At least in 722 I have found only on/off thing for the limiters in the menus.

Correct me if I am wrong.

In regard to a "mixer", I am planning to record to the camera, not a separate audio recorder. Is a mixer of much use in this instance? If so, whiat does it accomplish & how to you put it into the connection mix? Thanks guys, I know it's really basic, but I just can't seem to make sense of it.

In regard to a "mixer", I am planning to record to the camera, not a separate audio recorder. Is a mixer of much use in this instance? If so, whiat does it accomplish & how to you put it into the connection mix? Thanks guys, I know it's really basic, but I just can't seem to make sense of it.

With a mixer you get tighter control over recording levels, better limiters, and you probably can send your signal to the camera as line level instead of mic level, thereby possibly bypassing the often less than sterling performing preamps in the camera itself. (Camera models vary, of course).

With a mixer you get tighter control over recording levels, better limiters, and you probably can send your signal to the camera as line level instead of mic level, ...

And, uh... it gives another crew member something to do! Which can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on their skills.

To my way of thinking, if you're a one-man-band, a mixer hanging around your neck or off the tripod is a hassle and one more thing to take attention. Unless you're setting for some long shots...

On the other hand, if you have someone who is doing sound with you, a mixer is pretty essential.

I certainly agree with Steve's observations, but you also need to consider crewing and workflow.

Mostly will be the "one man band" mode, so your point is well taken. However, for some things I will be able to have someone help, who is actually an accomplished musician, so has a good ear. What is the effective difference between line & mic input? Is there a reasonable low cost mixer to be recommended? Thank you sincerely for the guidance!

Forgot to mention, the camera is a GL2, so will be going through a Beachtek device.

Mostly will be the "one man band" mode, so your point is well taken. However, for some things I will be able to have someone help, who is actually an accomplished musician, so has a good ear. What is the effective difference between line & mic input? Is there a reasonable low cost mixer to be recommended? Thank you sincerely for the guidance! Mic level signals are the very low level signal coming from most microphones while line level is the much stronger signals typically found when connecting devices together such as going from a mixer to a recorder or a preamplifier to a power amplifier. Mic levels are typically on the order of a few millivolts while line levels range from about half a volt up to a couple of volts. The practical consequences of the difference are that if you plug a microphone into an input designed to accept line levels the signal will be so weak as to be inaudible while plugging a line level into a mic level input will result in a signal that is severely overloaded and distorted. Preamps (and usually mixers) boost mic signals to line levels (among other things) while pads and attenuators can be used to reduce line down to mic levels.

"Low cost" is a matter of viewpoint. Two very popular professional quality mixers for ENG-style field production are the 2-channel Sound Devices MixPre at about $675 and the Sound Devices 302 3-channel mixer at about $1300. Sound gear doesn't change anywhere nearly as quickly as camera gear so a quality mixer is definitely an investment for the long term. What you buy today will continue to be equally useful 10 years down the road.

These responses are very helpful, thank you both very much. I will eventually figure this out with help from the good folks here, I am sure. Thank you for your patience & guidance.

And, uh... it gives another crew member something to do! Which can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on their skills.

To my way of thinking, if you're a one-man-band, a mixer hanging around your neck or off the tripod is a hassle and one more thing to take attention. Unless you're setting for some long shots...

On the other hand, if you have someone who is doing sound with you, a mixer is pretty essential.

I certainly agree with Steve's observations, but you also need to consider crewing and workflow.But the flipside of the flipside is that if the mixer has good limiters, you can use those and turn off the camera's AGC, and be more confident your levels will be okay. And that's beneficial to a one man band who really can't change levels a lot.

I'm with Peter on this one. A good limiter in a good mixer is a lifesaver.

Regards,

Ty Ford

...if the mixer has good limiters, you can use those and turn off the camera's AGC... And that's beneficial to a one man band who really can't change levels a lot.
Can't disagree, I guess. AGC is almost always to be avoided, and no prosumer cams I'm aware of offer limiting.

When I'm going out solo, I use manual gain, no mixer, and manage to trim levels as needed. A lot of what I do is sit-down interviews using wired or wireless lavs, so, once I find good level the gain may only be touched once or twice more. And I do keep an eye on it, which I can do in the viewfinder/lcd - a mixer would mean taking my attention away from the camera.

For me, the limiter provided by a mixer is certainly a nice-to-have feature, but not worth juggling another piece of equipment & wires... when going solo.

Yes, you're right. You can get better sound with a 2-person crew.

Regards,

Ty Ford