Dear Daniel
you wrote
...................................
12 bit will work but you have to put the frequency to 36Mhz or less.

50Mhz and 12bit will turn to garbage. This may change with new software/updates.
...................................
maybe stupid but which software, YOUR's or Norpix
may change is very vague.
If YES it could be some Pixels lower resolution
but who cares a real alternative and the only one to SI.
If you like to have big fanfares and applause
from the poor low budget indie film community
even outside USA PLEASE GO FOR IT
Gina

hm
white balance, knee and quite a long list
has to be done quite often, every scene you have
to do this as a question of light, inside outside etc.
If not on the camera body
on an attached Laptop
mini PC but not in Post please, would be a nightmare.

Everything ok on the scene frees the post
to do the work post is designed for

There may be some kind of hardware bottleneck prohibiting 12 bit at 50Mhz. Hopefully thats not the case and is only a limitation/bug of the software. Farhad could clarify this for us.

If it is a bottleneck it may be possible to get around it by just shooting a bit wider, say 1920x800. Or by limiting framerate to 24p.

I will test this a bit later.

Shooting 36Mhz increases sensitivity giving a brighter picture, but also raises the chance of rolling shutter distortions. ERS is not horrible at 36Mhz, but it is there on fast pans. Very usable though, not much of a problem. Its just important to be aware of it.

if it is no HW problem should be possible to fix. Sounds great to me
thanks. I blow my trumpet,..... you are dead fast.

Just got the computer. Uploaded some scale and parts pictures:
(sorry, shot on a cell phone)
http://www.dreamstonestudios.com/personal/daniel/experimental/SMX12A2/computer/

I may be too optimistic, but I think there is room inside for 10Ah batteries, PoE and all other components.

Im going to try to draw power from the computers embedded PSU to power the LCD. I did this for my Elphel setup, just plugged the LCD directly into the 12V Molex connector on a PC PSU. I hope it has enough power.

I'm thinking about adding another fan to cool the case.

I was thinking about using something like this for hot-swap hard drive cartridge. Have the main system run off solid state or just a 2.5" sata drive. Use the cartridge to record video.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817256030

The case has room inside if the front of it is cut. The 2.5" hard drives are contained in an enclosure with USB and eSATA.

If low on disk space just pull it out and replace with another cartridge. Or at the end of the day pull it out and transfer footage to workstation.

Sounds like a perfect solution.

jose what is the performance in nightime? how is it capable of handle lowlight? can you post something shot at night?

So far, and due to limitations in the software (I hope), low light recording is not very good. You have to raise gain a lot and though noise is very low, it's noticeable when you set gain to 24-26db.

We'll see what happens with the new software. Hopefully they'll set a higher top level for exposure, so high gain levels won't be necessary.

maybe that could help in that redish white overexposure: this was andromeda, andromeda was a dvx100 mod to get raw data from the sensor... it's not the same, but maybe some ideas can be applied to sumix... http://forum.reel-stream.com/viewtopic.php?t=778

Jose, great work as usual! The color balance issues seem to be very common, even in much more expensive cameras... most consumer types have built in filters, correct? We could always add filters as needed, to a certain degree. Hopefully the new software will allow finer control to prevent those blown highlights. It would be great if gain could be controlled separately for each channel, but I do not think that is possible. I did also notice a bit of artifacting in the red flowers as they moved around, did anyone else notice that?

Daniel, since you don't need the IDE for the CD/DVD, you could use an IDE to CF card adapter for the OS. That leaves the SATA for your swappable drive. Less noise and power usage rather than running an additional drive for the system, and cheaper than a Solid State Drive (unless you meant a CF card when you said Solid State :)

It may just be me, but I would rather not use USB if at all possible.

IDE to CF card adapter...
http://www.addonics.com/products/flash_memory_reader/ad44midecf.asp

Are compact flash cards fast enough to be used when recording direct to cineform raw 1080p? There're SATA to CF card adapters too.

http://www.addonics.com/products/flash_memory_reader/adsacf.asp

The RAW 12bit option is not yet implemented, neither is 8bit lossless compression. So far you can just record using 8bit option.

Norpix... PLEASE!! Release the new StreamPix update!


Raw data is 3 times easier to store. However, only the new application software will provide this feature, although not as fast as what will be provided by StreamPix after CineForm coding. For now, you can only store raw frames in PC RAM.
I wonder how we missed adding this feature earlier.

So what are these "new and interesting features" you speak of???? Frame-rate control? Curves?

The most interesting feature is that you will have access to the source code and see for yourself how things are done. Color correction is going to be automatic and by placing a color chart in front of the camera. we add details to the FAQ list as soon as we get some free time.

12 bit will work but you have to put the frequency to 36Mhz or less.

50Mhz and 12bit will turn to garbage. This may change with new software/updates.


50Mhz is a little less than 50 fps (two channesl A/D and 2 Megapixel frames) 12 bit uncompressed is too much GigE bandwidth at this frame rate. presently our in camera compression is only implemented for 8 bit data after LUT.

There may be some kind of hardware bottleneck prohibiting 12 bit at 50Mhz. Hopefully thats not the case and is only a limitation/bug of the software. Farhad could clarify this for us.

If it is a bottleneck it may be possible to get around it by just shooting a bit wider, say 1920x800. Or by limiting framerate to 24p.

I will test this a bit later.

Shooting 36Mhz increases sensitivity giving a brighter picture, but also raises the chance of rolling shutter distortions. ERS is not horrible at 36Mhz, but it is there on fast pans. Very usable though, not much of a problem. Its just important to be aware of it.

As I earlier said the bottleneck is GigE. We are implementing in firmware transfer of every other frame to PC, so camera can output at 75MHz and 12 bit (only skipping every other frame.) Also we are thinking about compression at 10 or 12 bit

So far, and due to limitations in the software (I hope), low light recording is not very good. You have to raise gain a lot and though noise is very low, it's noticeable when you set gain to 24-26db.

We'll see what happens with the new software. Hopefully they'll set a higher top level for exposure, so high gain levels won't be necessary.


The key for low light situation is correct color correction. CMOS pixels R,G, and B, all are so sensitive to IR. removing IR with extra filter on front of lens must help. Then a non-linear color correction is needed for low exposure. we need a lot of Macbeth charts around to calibrate for every exposure, IR level, etc.
The sensor is sensitive to high blue, I think this must be exploited in low light situations, crank up the gain on the blue and use the out for general brightness.

Are compact flash cards fast enough to be used when recording direct to cineform raw 1080p? There're SATA to CF card adapters too.

http://www.addonics.com/products/flash_memory_reader/adsacf.asp

I see we must consider adding flash memory adapter to the camera for raw storage while PC is just used for control and view finder with decimation. But this will be another camera.
I am not sure how CineForm codec compresses. For high quality work you need to keep raw 12 bit data. Sometimes in the future after gathering much raw video a software algorithm can learn from data and remove all Fixed pattern noise, add dynamic range by tracking pixels and estimating RGB intensities with another extra 2 bits accuracy. Technology long ago has been developed in the cold war era. You can wait a few years for cheaper computers and software and rejuvenate your old raw data movies.

The fastest CF cards I could find are only 45 MB/s, would that be fast enough to record on-camera Farhad? The camera would need at least 75 MB/s for 24 fps, correct?

I think that CineForm is 15 - 20 MB/s, so that may work with the 300x or even the 233x cards (taking into account that those are peak speeds and may not be maintainable). The advantage to CF cards over HDD, even taking into account that you may be losing raw data, is that CF won't seize up when shooting in environments that may damage a HDD... and CF is silent. Hmmm, maybe a CF SATA-adapter RAID 0 setup could capture it raw :)

That 75MHz and 12 bit every-other-frame upgrade sounds great! That should help if there are any rolling shutter issues.

I'm not sure if CF would be an ideal option. Not only are they not very fast but also very expensive. There is also storage limitations. The technology may improve over time but it may be easier to just use a faster interface. For example maybe fiber optic?

Higher exposure times will limit the framerate. It will also give us higher sensitivity.

Farhad, forgive me if I misunderstood but you said that 50Mhz is about ~50 fps which is just too much bandwidth for gige? If we limit the framerate by raising the exposure times or by just using some kind of limiter to 24p would 12bit work at 50Mhz?

I think that would be a fair compromise. 12bit limited to 24p (or whatever gige would allow) at 50Mhz.

Farhad, forgive me if I misunderstood but you said that 50Mhz is about ~50 fps which is just too much bandwidth for gige? If we limit the framerate by raising the exposure times or by just using some kind of limiter to 24p would 12bit work at 50Mhz?

I think that would be a fair compromise. 12bit limited to 24p (or whatever gige would allow) at 50Mhz.

Daniel, you are correct, Frequency limits the top frame rate. Lower frame rates can be set by software at high frequencies. Our firmware guys will perhaps give us the most economical option for minimizing the rolling shutter effect for 24p. The rolling shutter effects depends on the time cycle of reading one frame two pixels at a time (exposure only stops when the pixel is read.) Exposure is controlled by how long is the pause before starting to read the first pixel.

I'm not sure if CF would be an ideal option. Not only are they not very fast but also very expensive. There is also storage limitations. The technology may improve over time but it may be easier to just use a faster interface. For example maybe fiber optic?


Daniel and Jose,

Have a think about SxS cards, they're expresscard based and fast. I think the specs are 800mbs but i could be wrong. The same cards as the EX1. Im sure i've seen motherboards that have expresscard interfaces (which is an extension of PCI so it's pretty direct to the system). Now that sandisk are producing them the prices will level out. They're robust and you can take them out and plug them into many laptops to pull the data off. In my plans i've been thinking about these as a solution. I've just shot 3 weeks or drama on an EX using them and they've been great.

I don't like the idea of hard drives swinging around in a camera, much prefer the idea of solidstate.

cheers
paul

As I earlier said the bottleneck is GigE. We are implementing in firmware transfer of every other frame to PC, so camera can output at 75MHz and 12 bit (only skipping every other frame.) Also we are thinking about compression at 10 or 12 bit

I would consider 10bit log (via a LUT) an ideal solution. What would the max fps be under those circumstances?

cheers
paul

They're all very good ideas. Xpress Card or CF recording is perfect. That way the computer just has to control the camera and you have an easy way to transfer what you shot to another computer.

Silicon Imaging uses the "every other frame" option to achieve 24p 10bit film look because if the sensor is capturing 48p and you discard every other frame, you have 24p at 1/48 sec, which is the standard in film. Also you can dramatically reduce rolling shutter by doing that.

Lossless compressed 10bit RAW also sounds great.

Jose, I took your "semioutdoor35mmf2" clip and did the following:

- gamma correction
- highlight recovery and magenta shift
- highlight diffusion
- slight vignetting
- S-Curves (warmer)

http://solomonchase.com/sumix/semioutdoor35mmf2_CC.avi (format is Cineform 720p)

I think the diffusion and gamma correction helps the highlight clipping look better.

Solid state storage has its benefits. Its potentially much faster then a hard drive, resistant to shock, and also use much less power since it has nothing to spin or move.

I have a few videos here recorded with the smx. A 13 second video is 1.7 GB. At this rate 60 seconds of video will be ~7.8 GB. This camera has absolutely no mercy on drive space. CineForm codec really helps drastically reduce it but I still think you still need some good numbers as far as storage way beyond 8-17-32gb. Something like sets of swappable 250gb 2.5" hard drives.

I really lean towards a hard drive design because its a practical, proven solution. Yes, solid state cards are used in cameras but for compressed formats. I think we can learn a lot by looking at what the guys at RED and Silicon Imaging have done. Even with the CineForm codec they record to HDD. We are trying to build a very similar camera and should not ignore their design choices.

I don't mean to discourage people trying to implement solid state. If there is a practical way of doing it, I'm all for it. I would like nothing more then to get away from the power hungry unreliable hard drives.

Solomon, that clip looks more like a SI2K example. Very good!

Highlight diffusion is a bit high for me though. But that's just me.

Solomon, that clip looks more like a SI2K example. Very good!

Highlight diffusion is a bit high for me though. But that's just me.

Here's a version that is corrected with just color curves (no post diffusion etc)

http://solomonchase.com/sumix/cc1.jpg

The dslr image definately has more dynamic range.

Solomon,

Thank you for this example. It shows that green is bleeding into red. but red is not bleeding into green as much. A color correction must subtract a fraction of green from red. Wherever there is green there is extra parasitic red that must be subtracted. Our automatic matrix color correction must take care of it.

Threw together a prototype using whatever I had laying around the garage. Everything came together nicely at ~7lb and its not very big at all.

http://www.dreamstonestudios.com/personal/daniel/experimental/SMX12A2/prototype.JPG

Unfortunately the T7200 processor used in this system is too slow. I'm going to have to return the computer. To encode CineForm in real time you need a quad core processor. This is bad news because its going to use a huge amount of power and running off batteries will be a challenge.

I have a production tomorrow and will work more with this setup over the weekend. Hopefully it will give me a better idea on if I want to continue investing in this project.

They're all very good ideas. Xpress Card or CF recording is perfect. That way the computer just has to control the camera and you have an easy way to transfer what you shot to another computer.


CF cards can't go beyond 50 MByte/sec. It's a limitation in the interface, that's why the guys behind the CF-Standard are actually thinking about switching to SATA.

The XsX-Idea is good, but what are the prices? The standard is now 1 year old now but I did not hear a lot about it since it was published.

If you want to go the no-noise and low power consumption flash way I currently recommend Solid State Drives with SATA2. OCZ has thrown one on the market that writes with 100 MByte/sec and costs "only" 400 Euros for 32 GByte (or 800 Euros for 64 GByte respectively). I will have my hands on a few SSDs in a month and can post benchmarking results if anybody is interested.

Jose: Did you have any problems with the customs? How much Euros did you pay in total for the Sumix?

About 712 euros in total, but exchange is changing almost every day. Taxes were about 50 euros.

Did you recieve any special discounts? Because the $2.000 I heard earlier would be roughly 1.270 Euros...

Did you recieve any special discounts? Because the $2.000 I heard earlier would be roughly 1.270 Euros...

Gottfried, The discounts given to Jose and Daniel reflect the true value of the product, as the product is new and there is risks of unknown bugs. We are sold out for now and we can not extent this extra discount to others

When will the cam be back in Stock and what will be the price of it?

According to Farhad, in a week they'll receive new sensors and cameras will be ready to ship within 5-8 weeks.

I supose the price will be the same as always, that is $2,000 for filmmakers.

Gottfried, Price Will be the same. We try to be consistent. It will be first places order first served with priority going to our existing customers and distributors.

Gottfried, Price Will be the same. We try to be consistent. It will be first places order first served with priority going to our existing customers and distributors.

Good morning
so many good news amazing.

I'm still favoring my poor but reliable staedicam approach.
India is no low tech anymore, changing the buckles
and some padding Voila.

PC vice , hm, there are dead quiet CPU ventilations, heat pipes
and this stuff. Solid state disks are still not cheap,
but neither horrible expensive.
Think of 16 mm reals. Think of the last Aaton.
A beauty, but i do have swapping all 20 minutes,
and the processing ruins my bank account.

Swapping the Solid disks all 20 minutes around
and pumping them into a
Laptop on steroids is no rocket science at all.

There are some glitches, I'm sure Sumix will help us to navigate around.

My Aaton is best in a staedicam set up,
quite portable, battery pack, optics, rails, Filters Compendium
monitor out, decent screen will turn you Robocop like,
for the on shoulder version, trust in me.



to blow the trumpet
I'm the same in some kind
Intersexuell,
new passport and files, New look,
rebuild,
the brains
are not changing radically.
Still film making, maybe different approach,,
not so Robokop like, LOL

Have fun

Some screencaps from what I shot today with my mobile prototype.

The focus may be off and motion blur would also be a problem in thies shots. The lens is SD, can't see anything on the lcd outside(glare), and shooting things at near macro/telephoto violently shaking in the wind.

Shot at F/5.6 - F/8 with the camera at 50Mhz. Maximum exposure, 0 gain.
http://www.dreamstonestudios.com/personal/daniel/experimental/SMX12A2/imgs/April-06/
(70% compressed jpg)

Did some post on one of the images:
http://www.dreamstonestudios.com/personal/daniel/experimental/SMX12A2/imgs/April-06/FRAME_58-POST.jpg

(41 is shot indoors, ~50w tungsten light, no white balance. 36Mhz, max exposure, max gain)

Ok, so it looks like we need a Core2Quad miniPC to record CineformHD using streampix. That's going to make everything a bit harder... and more expensive.

I sent this in an email but it may be of benefit to others. A quad core pc should cost more than a pc with an expensive mobile processor. A T7200 is $300 and a much faster Q6600 is $234


I think they can be put together without spending too much.

Quad core mini-itx motherboard $350
http://www.portwell.com/products/detail.asp?CUSTCHAR1=WADE-8656

Core 2 Quad Q6600 quad core processor $234
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115018

Quad core cpu cooler $29
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835114074

4GB 800 DDR2 memory $79.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231122

Total: $693

+ $150 for a mini-itx case (~$80) and the rest for a power supply.

Are there any hardware solutions available for encoding CineForm?

I notice that CineForm was working on a mock-up of DTD recorder, that got me wondering if there are any companies out there that have built (or are building) a device to encode to CineForm, perhaps in the form of a PCIe card.

CineForm DTD mock-up: http://www.cineform.com/products/CineFormRecorder.htm

Just for clarification... Daniel, are you able to record video to your current setup using the Sumix software (but not StreamPix/CineForm)?

Just for clarification... Daniel, are you able to record video to your current setup using the Sumix software (but not StreamPix/CineForm)?

Yes it works perfect. CPU is only under 50% load to preview/record. But too slow for realtime CineForm.

You have to have a quad core. The links and specs I posted above should meet requirements.

One, only one stupid remark
vented in the Ephel thread a million time..fois
Linux all Debian types, knoppix, dynebolic even Ubuntu
you can configure dammed small, dammed fast.
XP or Vista is a monster, eating on idle
too much ......good morning.

I do have no idea guys
but a Red or SI, specially the SI
are already portable for the real world.

Real work is on scene, outside etc.
Crying loud, Indie Film is no
studio with a power station
or a cam with a generator in a van.

It has to be quick and dirty that is
our power and imagination
and the low budget dictates
how to work.

This can be a fantastic
force to drive imagination
as we have no bank, financing and
smart controllers. We are not mind controlled.

Blowing the trumpet for some
Steadicam version even with
the India clone and some TLC
I do, as I do know, it is fast
reliable and with somebody
for the sound, maybe a third person
carrying all stuff needed, lenses, laptop, cell phone, script, etc
you are the smallest real world production unit.

A blown up van with a quiet generator and a tethered
cam may work for reportage. One guy does it with a
1 million van and a viper cam in the States.

It is no Drama in any sense of the word.
have fun

I didn't think a quad core was required, im sure that in my past conversations with cineform the spec for recording a single stream was a lot less, perhaps a duo. I don't know what SI is using, they would know for sure.

Maybe there are some other bottlenecks in the system?

I believe that the best way to do it is to store log 10 bit or 12 bit and turn the camera into something that just dumps data fast. You can still encode to cineform afterwards if that's your workflow or even something else. Keeping the camera doing the least amount as possible seemed to me to be the best bet. Especially if the cpu will be needed for view finder tasks. I would think getting it to preview and focus with the minimum delay would take precedence over live encoding, the dumping of data is a bandwidth issue not a CPU one.

A hardware based solution would be neat though, but i think they're all based on recording HD-SDI or HDMI. This is not RAW and so the cameras would be debayering on board which is back to square one...

There is development work to do between the cineform RAW encoder and the specific sensor to get the best out. I believe this is an area that SI have spent a lot of time refining and it's the area that streampix is important. Each sensors characteristics need to be taken into account by the RAW encoder to get the best out of it. (Please correct me if im wrong, these are based on conversations with cineform a while ago and things do change...)

cheers
paul

Strange, when I was talking to Farhad some time ago, I told him exactly the same about why not using a 10 bit log LUT inside the camera, and letting the user load his own LUT if required.There is no need to tell you they never paid attention to my suggestions.

SI is using a Core 2 Duo if I'm not wrong, and that was one of the delays the had, waiting for more powerfull sensors at the time.

That is the main reason why I still insist that SI had a "clear view" of what to do.

BTW, Paul, are you a friend of Pol Turrents?

BTW, Paul, are you a friend of Pol Turrents?

Nope! I assume you mean the DP? Sounds like an interesting guy though.

For all of these cameras 10 bit log is plenty of range. 70MB/s would get you 30fps uncompressed (back of an envelope calculation though). To be honest you'd probably find 8 bit log plenty as well.

I think sumix are implementing or have said they can get 2:1 lossless compression within the head. So that would be even better.

cheers
paul

Juan,

I think 10 bit LUT (user defined) already implemented in new firmware. Sorry that we did not give you the credit for it yet. It is a great feature.

I agree that original recording must be as raw as possible. later you can do post processing in CineForm Codec for editing and distribution. Raw data can be used later to improve things. There is always a 14 bit video hidden in the belly of a 12 bit video depending on how fast things are moving.

I just checked with firmware engineer. 10 bit LUT, with lossless compression 1.8 to 1, and running at max frequency for minimum rolling shutter and adding pauses to get desired frame rate (like 24fps) all are implemented and will be available with new application software, hopefully the same time as the new batch of cameras will be shipping. Estimated time, late May

I didn't think a quad core was required, im sure that in my past conversations with cineform the spec for recording a single stream was a lot less, perhaps a duo. I don't know what SI is using, they would know for sure.

I was told by the people at Norpix quad core was what we should use in an email. Here are some benchmarks:

· 640x480 8-bit color, 150 fps, 95% cpu load (Intel dual-core T7400)

· 640x480 12-bit color, 140 fps, 44% cpu load (Intel quad-core Q6600)

· 1920x1080 8-bit color, 31 fps, 30% cpu load (Intel quad-core Q6600)

· 1920 x1080 12-bit color, 29 fps, 85% cpu load (Intel quad-core Q6600)

· 1920 x1080 12-bit color pixel pack, 95% cpu load ( Intel dual core T7700)

· 1920 x1080 12-bit color pixel pack, 75% cpu load ( Intel dual core T7700, Low Quality)


I don't like the idea of using a quad core processor because the system is going to use 3 times more power if not more. Instead of a 30w chip, having to go to 95w.

I would love to find a solution that would allow us to use mobile Core 2 Duos. Encoding to cineform in post was an idea, and I would rather do that then sacrifice so much battery life. But I'm told that recording uncompressed (60 MB/s) is out of the question for the T7200 computer I bought.

Farhead, are you planning to add RAW recording soon? You mentioned some new software earlier. Is it the version that will be shipping in May?

The best thing would be the RAW data lossless compressed in a container that also stores the settings used while recording as metadata.

I would like to do all the debayering and encoding in post. That way a core 2 duo should be sufficient for recording.