>I don't see the point on using 3 sensors anymore.

There is one issue with these single sensor solutions and that is that you cannot apply gain to each colour channel separately to balance for lighting conditions whilst shooting.

The sensors are native daylight and under tungsten there is a benefit to applying gain to each channel to avoid clipping other channels. With a single sensor you're fixed in that regard.

3 mono sensors are also more sensitive as the bayer mask absorbs some light.

Having said that a single raw file is very useful. 2/3rds DOF is good so long as you're using very fast lenses. And some of the machine vision lenses do seem pretty nice.

Streampix works but from a UI perspective needs a lot of work if you're going to use it in the field. Perhaps that is something that norpix would consider? This isn't really streampixes target audience and that shows with the UI they have.

I am looking forward to seeing some images! I've been playing with CCD sensors but blooming is an ever present problem with wide open apertures and extremes of contrast.

hurry up, get some frames up :)

cheers
paul

Jose... Im confused - you say that its ready to shoot but you yourself have not shot anything yet?... Is their a practical way to shoot with this camera in normal situations? (eg. outside on the street)

Im really trying hard to understand things here... So here it goes -

Order sumix camera
Connect C-mount lens
Plug Gig-Ethernet cable from cam into laptop
Use supplied sumix software to monitor and control camera.

It sounds so easy but everyone talks as if their waiting for things to happen (eg. streampix software,etc.)

Surely their is a catch? Is the sumix software usable by a normal (non-code) person like myself?

Please help!!!

Nicky, don't worry. There's no catch.

I can't post anything yet because I need to buy a couple of Cat6 ethernet cables, which are basically simple ethernet cables with GigE support. That's all.

You can capture sequences using the software from Sumix. The only problem is that software is not made for filming purposes but to control every single aspect of the sensor, so there're a few options we won't use an others that show info we need but do it in a non-cinematography way. Once you get used to these controls, you can use Sumix software to shoot everything you need.

What are the pros when using StreamPix? Mainly RAW Cineform files. Smaller and easier to control in post. Cons? It's not made for filming purposes either.

I really think we should have a software specifically made to use this camera for digital cinema.

Daniel, are you sure StreamPix will cover everything we need? I know recording directly to cineform is a great option but maybe we need something closer to the SI2K interface to be really comfortable when shooting.

Ok... I see :)

Where can I see some GOOD examples of footage shot with the sumix camera?

Is the software sumix supplies practical to use for someone like me who is not a code geek?... Im just wondering how hard it would be, or maybe we can wait for streampix?

Thanks for your patience.

IMHO the software that comes with the camera is good for testing but I don't think its in any condition to be put to use on a production.

Daniel, are you sure StreamPix will cover everything we need? I know recording directly to cineform is a great option but maybe we need something closer to the SI2K interface to be really comfortable when shooting.

I can't say that it will be exactly what you want. As far as im concerned Streampix 3 appears to have everything I would need. Granted, its not perfect. But it will do all of the functions I am concerned about. Just some things off the top of my head...

1 button record/stop
1 button snapshot
frame zoom controls (focusing/details)
fit image to window (not cropped, will to work under any screen resolution)
playback mode
realtime histogram
color balance / levels / lut
brightness/contrast/gamma

Looks like if you plug your mic into the computer it will capture audio too.
The interface is touch screen friendly, interface buttons can be made bigger.

You should get a trial and try it out for yourself.

I have some feature requests but will worry about that later, I just want to have the camera supported asap. One simple thing I would like to see some sort of overlay screen guides added to help shoot for 16:9, 4:3, 1:85:1, 2:39:1, ect. I will probably just use a bit of tape on the lcd but this would be a good feature.

Really, from what I can tell Streampix provides most of the same functionality as the SI-2K DVR software. However, a lot of the important things such as camera settings, white balance, ect we can't see yet because its just not implemented.

Oh, on my wish list... Something like SI-2K's "Look Library"... Better yet, if its legal would be great to have compatibility with their format. Same/similar sensor right? Should work.
http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/SiliconImaging_looks.html

still haven't seen any user-created video from this camera. a good-looking video sample will go a long way to generating sales: even the standard "here is my cat" video.

Very soon...

Jose,

Let me know if you got my email.

nevermind. -edit

First test!

After a few ugly tests and a couple of little problems (everything's ok now, don't worry) I'm posting my official first test. Well, it's not a cat. It's my girlfriend and our dog.

The Sumix software for this cam is always under development. In fact Daniel and I are constantly contacting them to include new features or change things. I tell you this because the framerate selector is not yet implemented, so this sequence was recorded at 43fps uncompressed and then encoded to 25p HD-Divx 6, so it looks slower than you'd expect.

The clip doesn't have any CC other than the white balance inside cam.

http://www.sinproblema.net/FirstTest.avi

Hope you like it. I do.

Thanks so much for the test. What is your opinion of the debayer algorithm of the Sumix software? I was not impressed with the tests posted on the website and it's really the only thing holding me back from purchasing one of these. Again thanks for the test. Anyway to see an uncompressed frame?

One of the first things Sumix is going to add to their software is RAW recording so you can debayer in post if you want. Laplacian filter looks good. The others give a rather soft image but still good enough.

This is an uncompressed frame. Taken from the uncompressed AVI 8bit. I used bilinear as filter so don't expect much quality. I wanted speed.

http://www.sinproblema.net/frame.tif

That puts my faith back in the camera. I was debating using it for a feature shoot this summer. What lens did you shoot this test with?

Computar F1.2 12,5-75mm 2/3" megapixel zoom

Jumping into the thread...

Sumix looks quite nice from a sensor and programmability point of view... But theses are just part of a camera.
The problem I see is this cam rely enterily on the portable computer's power.
And you can't switch computer on/off constantly between 2 shots.. Specially, processing HD realtime require lot of power, so you won't last more than an hour when shoting outside, while with a regular camcorder you can stay the whole day outside with a single battery.
Plus, it don't look easy for steadicam shots to have a computer plugged without a single monitor onboard to see what's happening.
This camera may be perfect for studio shots, but otherwise...

Hi Robin,

I'm not saying this is the perfect HD cam for every possible project. This is not a RED One. In fact it's not a complete cam. What I'm saying is that this is a new and big step forward when you're trying to shoot something close to film in a controlled environment.

You say this cam depends on your computer's power to shoot. Well the same happens with a SI2K Mini cam and people are using it for professional projects. Of course they don't use it to shoot outside for a whole day. They can't. But that doesn't mean the SI2K Mini or the Sumix are not a very good option to shoot digital cinema. Plus the Sumix costs like $10,000 less.

By the way, who says you don't have a monitor for steadycam work? All laptops have vga out. Just plug in a little lcd and you've got your monitor.

Jose, thanks for the shots... I can't wait to see more.

With that 222 Wh battery pack your using, you should be able to at least match the RED One's battery life :)

Is that miniPC able to provide a decent preview of the shot, and record to the HDD simultaneously?

Keep up the good work!

isnt red one like 70W? thats pretty significant power drain. i have no doubt that a small pc or laptop suitable for use with sumix could pretty easily consume less power. i mean RED one records RAW data and provides something like quarter res preview (with what debayer?). recording a raw data stream doesnt take a lot of cpu power, compression and/or high quality debayer at high res uses lots of cpu power. recording with light compression and bilinear debayer at half res is probably something that can be done on what is nowadays a mid-range spec laptop. thats all SI is doing, so obviously it can be done, and i have no doubt it eats less than 70W. and SI could do it last year, this year CPUs might be considered to be about 30% more efficient than than the CPUs that were out back when i saw SI-2K at NAB last year. btw that minipc is just a rebadged aopen i believe ( http://minipc.aopen.com/Global/spec.htm ). mentions 90W draw, but that of course depends on the cpu, 90W max i assume is if you have 2 so-dimms, 2 pci-e cards, are using usb power, have both a HDD and cd drive that are spinning up, and are at full cpu load.

isnt red one like 70W?

RED One uses about 60w with a 140Wh battery, and has 90 min of battery life on a charge.

The computer im planning to use is 52w under full load, its unlikely I will be under full load. The 7" lcd uses 8w, and the camera itself will use a bit more. All in all about 60w. If i'm doing my math right, I should be able to get up to a few hours off a single battery.

I've been looking at your footage, Jose and it looks like you might have a dead pixel in there, or maybe I'm misinterpreting what I'm seeing.

Camera head only needs 2.5W at maximum frequency. We can supply a USB plug for supplying power to the camera head without needing to use POE. But you have to make sure the PC can reliably supply the 5 Volts and 500ma current needed, otherwise the PC can shut down randomly.

That sounds great will facilate the stuff a lot

http://www.liantec.com/product/emboard/ITX-6965.htm#Specification

and i do now even fan less

I highlighted the dead pixel in this clip: http://www.vimeo.com/845208

You have to download the original file to see it.

a steadycam like rig would be my dream for real life shooting
the camera head with optics plus
on a arm the panel PC with touchsreen
maybe in a brick another harddisk
and for balancing a battery block
the poor man read is ready

http://ipc-tek.de/product_info.php?products_id=247
all in one block very good in a..steadycam like rig

or even this
http://ipc-tek.de/product_info.php?cPath=1_55&products_id=249

http://ipc-tek.de/product_info.php?cPath=2_46_48&products_id=176
only 15,5x25,5x5 cm full blown system

I just bought this:
http://www.cappuccinopc.com/slimpro-sp635b.asp

I picked the thicker one for the cheaper and faster 3.5" hard drive support.

SlimPRO SP635B (RoHS) (RoHS) (Black) (Qty=1, Price=$845.00)
- Intel® Core™2 Duo processor T7200 (2.00GHz / 4MB L2 / 667 MHz)
- DDR2-533 SODIMM 512MB (I will upgrade it myself)
- System with No HDD (Will buy my own high speed HDD)
- No Optical Drive (no need. only waste of power and noise)
- Onboard Video (good enough)

It may not be fast enough to operate the camera but its worth a try.

this one has no fan, no noise
http://ipc-tek.de/product_info.php?products_id=247
i do know the cappucino
Garcia is using it it's cheap

http://ipc-tek.de/product_info.php?cPath=2_46_48&products_id=176
only 15,5x25,5x5 cm full blown system
fanless CPU Merom T 7600 no noise
it is good to have no fan for recording audio

and I would opt for a staedicam like rig.
Moves quite easy, all can be balanced
best for real world.
http://www.avant-gardefilms.com/stabilizer_page.htm
voila

I highlighted the dead pixel in this clip: http://www.vimeo.com/845208

You have to download the original file to see it.


Kyle, Jose had not enabled the bad pixels (dead and hot) pixel correction. Every sensor has bad pixels. The key is that the percentage must be small and no two bad pixels be next to each other. Altasens particularly produces high quality sensors with respect to bad pixels statistics.

Is there a fix in the software that comes with the camera?

Wow! Too many posts since I last visited.

Ronald, I don't think a simple Core Duo can handle this camera. Even Daniel isn't sure about his setup and it's a Core2Duo 2Ghz. I know fanless computers look good for our purposes, but in the end they're bigger and slower than miniPCs which have a fan but they're not noisy at all. If you think about it, when you're shooting you have your mic away from the cam, pointing to the actor. I don't think a small fan is going to ruin your take.

Kyle, as Farhad says, I didn't enable the pixel correction filter, so dead pixels were visible. You just have to enable it and all bad pixels disappear.

I'll post another test soon. This time using Cineform, so the quality will be much better.

Jose,

Thank you for the first real frames i've seen, most appreciated.

Do you have a digital SLR camera too? Next time it would be great if you could take a photo of the scene you're shooting with the SLR because the SLR will have all sorts of calibration and corrections and we'd get a good idea of how it compares.

Your example frame seems terribly desaturated but that's difficult to tell without understanding more about the scene.

Even on this low contrast scene the lens shows abberations i think - the edge of the white cushion for example has a blue glow. What aperture was the lens on?

I would love to see some DOF examples, say at f1.4 at 16mm.

And some outside stuff which should look great!

I look forward to seeing more examples. Many thanks again.

cheers
paul

Hi Paul,

The next clip will be posted along with a SLR photo. No post corrections on either of them.

Yes, the frame looks desaturated but that's because of auto white balance and me not knowing how to deal with LUT controls. Sumix is releasing a new software soon and it'll have better white balance and saturation control (as well as many other very interesting features).

Yes, I've seen some subtle aberrations too. The computar zoom is quite sharp and has a very good quality for a $300 12-75 megapixel zoom lens but don't forget it's a machine vision lens. It has to have its faults compared to a high quality cine or photo lens. I can't wait to have the Angenieux zoom here. The clip was recorded at f1.2.

the hick is nobody tells us was this streampix has to use

http://www.cappuccinopc.com/slimpro-sp635b.asp
this one mentioned here
has as fastest a T7400 with 1.16 GHZ
on their page it is all very the laptop they mention
is not very high tech
What you guys want to to?
to do film or realize a technical overkill
Mine a fanless box
can have a T7600 2.33 GHZ

I do think still as small and no fan no noise
and low power will do the trick
a PS direct 12V to power this brick
will be smaller as any standard PSU

I do not think that streampix as only application will use
a quad core, the application makes no use of it
3 cores are on idle all the time

what is going on.
Streampix is an application for the industry and not for Indie Film making
and in industry every cent is a lot of money
I do guess the silicon is not using a fan and a quad core.

Windows XP ist fine for streampix even Vista is taking to much power.

Is here anybody film making in here
or is all that money to do some test shots and talking pixels

Ronald,

We're all trying to build our own setup according to what we think it's best for this cam. We're talking so much about pixels and speed because we don't want to spend time and money in something that doesn't work or hangs everytime you try to record a long shot. If you think we're talking too much, you should take a look at some of the first threads about possible homemade HD cams. Those were pure maths compared to this!

There're two rules concerning the computer for this cam: the faster, the less problems you'll have shooting and storing your clips and the less power required, the better. Now we just need to find something balanced between both rules.

Yes, StreamPix needs a slower computer to work just fine but we're also looking for other options, because we know StreamPix was not made specifically for filmmaking. Sumix is working on a better software and there're a couple of open software projects already running. Those may require a faster computer if you want to shoot using a more film-oriented user interface. What are you going to do then? Buy another computer? Why not be sure from the start that your computer can handle everything you throw at it?

Maybe Farhad can tell us what specs are they using to record without problems.

By the way Ronald, we're all filmmakers here and as for me, I'm waiting for the whole setup to be ready to start shooting a pilot episode and a feature film.

What I don't want is to be worried about the cam when I'm shooting.

I will receive the computer in the mail sometime tomorrow and will be able to test if it is able to handle recording. Tonight I will work on a temporary mount system for a set of support rods with Velcro or some kind of straps to hold the computer.

Meanwhile, I made a phone call to a battery supplier and came up with some numbers.

Camera power requirements [PC 12v DC ~50w] + [8w LCD] + [~3w camera]
~5Ah needed to operate the camera

[Li-Ion expensive but light weight]
(will need a regulator to step down to 12V for the computer)

10Ah - ~2 hours battery life (1.5 lb) = $259.55
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=4051

21Ah - ~4 hours battery life (3.7lb) = $369.99
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=4273

The best option for me may be the 2 hours battery life, since its lighter weight. Ni-MH are about twice cheaper, don't need a regulator, but also twice as heavy. I need the camera to be < 17 lbs.

The numbers I provided are only estimates, and calculated based on the components used in my build. Its possible battery life will be considerably higher. Looks like the computer idles at about 38w, and it is unclear how much load it will be under when recording. Battery life will always depend on situation and usage.

Jose,
Your example frame seems terribly desaturated but that's difficult to tell without understanding more about the scene.
paul

Really all of the original unmodified video that comes from this sensor is desaturated to an extent. If you go to the Silicon Imaging website and download the videos from the gallery you will see for yourself. I would imagine the same thing is true of any CMOS camera including the RED One.

Because of the relatively low signal noise level I believe saturation can be safely adjusted. Based on videos shot with SI-2K this camera should have a lot of potential.

The images below are not mine, they are snapshots from the videos on the Silicon Imaging website. I did a quick CC on one (just brought up the saturation a bit) the other is original. Keep in mind they are 70% compressed JPG.

So what are these "new and interesting features" you speak of???? Frame-rate control? Curves?

Basically frame rate control, saturation, start/stop button (for now you have to set a number of frames to record before actually recording), better white balance...

Well, I've got two new clips. Semi outdoors because they're recorded from my window.

The look very similar, but one is shot at 20mm and the other is about 35mm. Both have an aperture of f2. I'm also attaching a photo taken with my Canon EOS 400D at 55mm full auto (the sensor on the 400D is not a full 35mm frame).

http://www.sinproblema.net/semioutdoor20mmf2.avi

http://www.sinproblema.net/semioutdoor35mmf2.avi

Of course the photo shows more detail (larger sensor and larger image downsized to 1920x1080), more overall light while not burning highlights and more saturated colors. I'm waiting for StreamPix or a new version of the Sumix software to see if the cam can give more light without burning highlights. I've seen SI2K tests and I think that's possible... or maybe the tests I've seen are Cineform RAW files corrected in post.

These are great, thanks!

I saw a neat thing at Fry's Electronics today, it was a battery powered generator made by Xantrex.

http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/63/p/1/pt/10/product.asp

It was $300 if I remember correctly, could have been $400. But, if you needed outlets for your laptop/production LCD/lights/Sumix camera, this could be a nice thing to wheel around with you.

Also, the Ikan V8000T looked like a neat option for monitoring. Granted it is 4:3 but it's 1024x768 resolution and touch screen capability combined with the optional AA battery pack adapter to power it with AA batteries makes it a neat option for the Sumix camera. Heck, at the least it can be the control interface for your laptop or PC combo while you're recording.

I also looked at possible laptops to use with the camera, if you didn't want to go with a small PC setup. So far, I've looked at Sager notebooks. It looked to be the best bang for your buck I've found so far. One model I configured had a Geforce 8600GT graphics chip and comes in a variety of monitor size configurations with an Intel Core 2 Duo chip as the base up to 2.6ghz. A system using a 2.5ghz chip, Geforce 8600GT, 15" monitor, and 2gb of RAM with, granted a small by today's standards, 100gb 7200RPM hard drive came out to be around $1,424. Not bad as far as laptops go.

[QUOTE=Daniel Lipats;853093]Because of the relatively low signal noise level I believe saturation can be safely adjusted. Based on videos shot with SI-2K this camera should have a lot of potential.
QUOTE]

Daniel, im aware of this aspect of cmos vs CCD. I've been playing with various sensor heads a while now and the sumix is on my target list. And im hoping to get a general idea of how this one performs. Some cmos are just plain awful and after having it pointed out to me, then through actual testing, the red performance (no pun, just the colour red) is really problematic on cmos - perhaps as a factor of the sensors being daylight balanced and therefore you cannot actually push red as much as you'd like? I've had interesting results gell'ing the lenses for colour correction!

So far in very broad terms i've found colour more accurate on CCD by a long way. As you say though if cmos can be pushed further then fine. I have an EX as well and it is very sensitive but the fidelity breaks up very easily under low light. The EX also has a lot of compensation and highlight recovery going on -- it makes a nice image though. This is custom software that would need to be developed for a camera like this. But it may well be worth it. Sensor streaking on CCD is my pet hate!

The more pictures and images i see the better judgement i can make, i look forward to more!

cheers
paul

I'm waiting for StreamPix or a new version of the Sumix software to see if the cam can give more light without burning highlights. I've seen SI2K tests and I think that's possible... or maybe the tests I've seen are Cineform RAW files corrected in post.


Jose,

Great stuff.

Part of the solution for highlight handling is good highlight recovery. This is for when one or two of the channels clip early. The recovery algorithm should reconstruct the highlight based on the information around to try and get around mis coloured highlights. (You can see pink highlights on those examples which is the blue and red channel clipping before the green)

You shot these images at f2? Outside? What exposure time or gain did you have or did you have ND on the lens?

You can push the image in photoshop to approximate the SLR version, you do very quickly blow the reds though and there's an overall red cast on it. So any post treatment needs more work than just pushing the saturation slider, some kind of LUT perhaps.

Are you getting a 12bit RAW out of the camera? Because obviously the movies are compressed 8 bit which isn't ideal for checking colours. Could we get a 16bit tif from a frame from this?

But it's pretty nice, certainly compared to a lot of other cmos. It has promise, that's for sure.

cheers
paul

I got to playing around with the clips and fond that it mostly needed saturation on the high end but closer to black it was a bit more consistent. Towards white, you need to push the blue channel a bit more to bring everything back to center.

Every channel seemed to need its own special tweaking. Without working with the camera myself, I'd say you might be better off shooting what would seem to a bit too dark. Then just pull everything up.

I used a combination of curves and saturation adjustments here.
http://pghvideo.com/video/20mm_f2_cc.m2t

sorry it's HDV, Cineform's not in the budget.

(link will not last long, I don't need this sitting on the server)

Hi Paul,

I didn't know about highlight handling and recovery. I'll explain the color controls you have for the sumix so far, I guess these will change in future versions:

Basically you have an auto white balance which works just ok but it desaturates a bit, i.e. tends to turn the white surfaces gray.

Then you have brightness, contrast and gamma levels for full RGB and then separate controls for red, green and blue. Appart from that, you have frequency, exposure and gain levels.

I'm really interested in solving the highlights problem, because the camera performs just great and saturation can always be adjusted in post. Burnt highlights is the only problem I can see.

Yes, I shot this at f2 (you asked for f1.4, remember? but it was way too bright), of course setting exposure to very low levels and gain to 0.

The RAW 12bit option is not yet implemented, neither is 8bit lossless compression. So far you can just record using 8bit option.

Norpix... PLEASE!! Release the new StreamPix update!

Samuel, I find the red flowers oversaturated, I know you had to rise red levels a lot for the rest of the image to look right, but while the overall clip looks good, those flowers don't.

Hi Paul,
I'm really interested in solving the highlights problem, because the camera performs just great and saturation can always be adjusted in post. Burnt highlights is the only problem I can see.


Jose,

Im surprised you managed to get f2 outside that's all!

Is exposure shutter speed? Or is that frequency? Im not sure what both of those would do. Gain is obvious. I would guess that some combination of those two created a very fast shutter speed letting you get that image without ND.

If you have separate controls over the RGB gamma some correction might be possible within that software but i think more sophisticated correction tools would be needed. You may find that the correction needed changes with exposure in which case you might be looking for various calibrated LUT tables.

Highlight recovery can be really very complex and it's probably best implemented in the debayer. Much like you have within Photoshop and various RAW convertors. There's a good explaination of what happens with dcraw somewhere online (i forget exactly where)

So the only recording is 8 bit compressed at the moment? No RAW files at all?

cheers
paul

No, 8bit uncompressed is the only option so far.

I'm sorry if the "remember?" thing sounded a bit harsh, it wasn't my intention.

I guess everything will change once we get to record using StreamPix or the new software from Sumix, from highlights to post color correction. We'll be able to do white balancing in post too. StreamPix allows framerate setting, doesn't it?

I think frequency is shutter speed. I was recording at 50Mhz which translates to 1/50 sec I believe.

12 bit will work but you have to put the frequency to 36Mhz or less.

50Mhz and 12bit will turn to garbage. This may change with new software/updates.

No, 8bit uncompressed is the only option so far.

I'm sorry if the "remember?" thing sounded a bit harsh, it wasn't my intention.

I guess everything will change once we get to record using StreamPix or the new software from Sumix, from highlights to post color correction. We'll be able to do white balancing in post too. StreamPix allows framerate setting, doesn't it?

I think frequency is shutter speed. I was recording at 50Mhz which translates to 1/50 sec I believe.

Luc might want to jump in here but streampix basically offers a UI against whatever the camera is able to do. so if the options are offered by sumix then yes.

the streampix workflow is creating and saving a sequence of say raw frames, then you can load that sequence back in and apply various plug-ins, like debayer and export in different file formats.

I believe so long as your set up can stream and dump out the data fast enough you can write to disc. Otherwise you can always record to RAM first (for testing mostly).

If frequence is shutter speed and gain is gain, what is exposure in this case?

Could it be the frequency is the read out frequency of the sensor and the exposure is the shutter speed? The aim is to have a high enough frequency to negate rolling shutting whilst still be able to control the shutter speed?

cheers
paul