so what you said is that the filter isn't actually needed but with a proper LUT you get the work done (minus the light loss of the filter)?

excuse my second post...

what i can see to that correction is that what really changes are the highlights, while the overall seems to keep all the luma is the highlighs where a change can be seen

look at the middle of the image

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachments/alternative-imaging-methods/10272d1230712851-sumix-2-3-1920x1080-cmos-raw.jpg

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachments/alternative-imaging-methods/10273d1230712851-sumix-2-3-1920x1080-cmos-smx.jpg

what would be the rig i would need in order to shot 3d, two laptops with lan? is there any possiblity to reduce it to one computer?

The color calibration matrix is just a way to get the color close to what human eyes see, as a clean start for further color grading. In this case it's just 9 numbers store in the DNG file and the color transformation is done when loading the files into Adobe's Camera RAW, not while recording. The recorded raw data is untouched so there's nothing lost. If you're familiar with DSLR's raw file processing then you'll see the benefit of using DNG format.

I've finished the basic functions of my own program and am building a portable camera body now.
So far it's capable of:
1920x1080 24p 12-bit uncompressed raw recording.
Realtime preview with histogram, while or while not recording.
Synchronized 2-channel 16-bit 48Khz audio recording with realtime level indicator.
Fix-pattern noise removal.
Manual shutter-speed and gain.
UI for touch-screen LCD.

Some features to be added in the future:
Realtime playback.
Other recording formats such as 1280x720 60p, 1920x1080 30p...
Focusing assistance.
...

...and am building a portable camera body now...

what exaclty do you mean by that?

Eric,

What kind of hardware are you using to record that signal? Is it a raid 0 setup?

What network card are you using? Mine is giving me a bit of trouble as indicated here: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/305574/smx.MP4

We have tried a few off the shelf cards but they lead to the same result. We suspect that the < $100 network cards can not keep up with the signal.

Biel,
The SMX12A2C need a PC to run. By camera body I mean a portable PC run on batteries, that can be carried around like a normal camera. I guess a laptop would do, but I want something looks more like a camera.

Daniel,
The hardware I used for testing is
Core 2 Duo E6400
2.0G RAM
nVidia 7600GT display card
Intel PRO/1000 GT net adapter
software RAID 0 with 2x 7200rpm HDD

The 2-HDD RAID 0 is barely fast enough for 1920x1080 24p 12-bit. But I am able to record continuously about 30 seconds even with one ordinary HDD if I use most of the RAM for frame buffer. That's quite enough for most shooting.

Did you get the defected results at all frame rate settings? For me it only happened when the data rate exceed the capacity of Gigabit Ethernet. But when it happens it doesn't look quite like your result. It doesn't happen with 1920x1080 24p 12-bit setting though. I've tried 2 different net adapters, both cheap ones, with similar results.

Eric,

Thanks for the hardware list. Is this the Intel PRO/1000 GT adapter you are using? Newegg.com - Intel PWLA8391GT 10/ 100/ 1000Mbps PCI PRO/1000 GT Desktop Adapter 1 x RJ45 - Network Interface Cards (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833106123)

That particular video was shot with the camera set to 10bit, 75mhz and 24fps. The result really depends on the bitrate of the signal. Higher frame rates make it much worse. If that network adapter works then I will get one too.

Any progress in putting together a mobile system?

Eric,

Do you have any plans to make the software available for download or even for sale? I am very interested in recording to the raw DNG format.

Daniel,

That's exactly the same Intel card I'm using.

Thank you for the interests. My program still need a lot of work. Currently it's far from ready to be used for serious shooting. You'll have to wait until I feel confident enough about it.

I finally got the time to put together some test shots:
SMX12A2C Test Shots on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/2851696)

All was shot 1920x1080 24p, shutter 1/48, 12-bit raw as DNG sequences. Lens was Nikon 28mm F2.8. No color correction other than tweaking the DNG settings. Please download the original 1080p AVI file (at bottom-right of the page). Vimeo doesn't do the camera justice IMO.

I managed to tune my program to be able to capture 1080 24p 12-bit on a Pentium M Dothan 1.6G machine. It's way too slow for running any additional features. I'll get a C2D machine when I have the money.

I still have to find solution for DC power source. The 8" LCD I ordered have not arrived, so it's still not very easy to shoot.

eric, how does the camera handle handheld shots at 1/96? when does rolling shutter appear? how does it handle a scene under the direct light of the sun and shadows?

The shutter speed won't affect the rolling shutter effect. The amount of CMOS rolling shutter effect is proportional to the interval between the scanning of the up-most line and the bottom-most line, which is a constant value with the same width/height/fps settings, and is irrelevant to exposure time(shutter speed).

SMX12A2 have a special mode that drops every other frame. The 24p I shot was really 48p with every other frame removed. This way the rolling shutter effect is half of 24p. It's still there but to my eyes it's much more acceptable.

Eric wouldn't the nvidia/intel platform "ion" be the perfect companion for the camera? or maybe it would be two much processing power? or too costly?

I have not test the 2-core Atom but I guess it won't be fast enough. Currently my software uses the CPU to do most of the work. And I don't have the resources to test all kinds of hardware. I would use a 45nm Core 2 Duo based machine, but I have to make do with my old Pentium M right now.

Time to subscribe again to the thread.
Hi Wu, Can you outline all your equipment ? i.e. camera, PC, any capture card, monitor etc. ? Thanks!

Just ran across something interesting today. It's a Mini-ITX Intel Core 2 Duo Mobile multimedia motherboard which has integrated:

HDMI
DVI-D
YPbPr
digital audio
dual Intel Gb LAN
5 SATA & 8 USB 2.0

1 PCI (32-bit)
1 Mini PCI
1 PCI Express Mini Card

Onboard Compact Flash slot

This thing is ideal for any camera. Especially this one. It's also relatively cheap for what you get.

Logic Supply - Leaders in Mini-ITX & Small Form Factor Solutions (http://www.logicsupply.com/products/ga_6kieh_rh)

Hello guys,

I have built a portable PC for recording. It runs on a 12V7AH lead-acid battery inside the case, and can take external DC power source. The main specs are as following:

CPU : Pentium M Dothan 1.6G
RAM: DDR2 667 2G
HDD: Seagate 2.5" 120G x 2
monitor : 8.4" touch-screen LCD

The battery runs only about 1 hour. The HDDs can store 50 minutes of uncompressed files. I'm thinking adding a removable interface for the HDDs so I can quickly exchange them when they are full.

The original idea was to attach the whole thing together, but that would be way too heavy for my small tripod.

Getting re-interested in the SUMIX. With the release of the HPX300 I've been tryin' to decide whether to get a 5D MKII and keep my HPX170 + Letus Ultimate or to upgrade, but then I remembered the 12A2C and started huntin' for info...

It's nice to see some brand new footage pop up!

Eric, what lens are you using on the front?

Do you have more footage to post? I'm also interested in the amount of wobble/skew present when handheld.

How does the software work for frame rate and shutter angle control? I read that you recorded 48P and the 24P is coming from there, but can you record a straight 24P? How's that work?

How much did it cost to build your mini rig and where did you order the battery from?

Now that Scarlet's pretty much dead-in-the-water it's easier to look at these alternatives to see what we can get out of them. Still not ruling out the 5D MKII.

Hi Eric. What solution did you use for the focus wheel ?
I noticed the portable PC holder is a towel holder - nice touch.
Is the lens and camera support also DIY ?
Looks quite nice actually..

Eric,

Would you mind uploading a short (2-3) frame DNG sequence? I would like to take a closer look at your FPN solution and compare the noise levels to what I'm seeing in my videos.

Since you are not using the software that is provided by Sumix its possible that your configuration is producing a cleaner image.

I shot some more tests over the past week and have been looking for a good solution to remove temporal noise in post. FPN is simple but the random noise is a big problem even with 0 gain. So far I have not had much luck. Doing a lot of tuning and calibration but everything I try takes away important details.

Thank you guys,

The lens in the pictures above was a Nikon 50mm F1.8, with an F-mount to C-mount adapter. The rod support and follow focus was from my old DIY projects, originally for my DIY 35mm adapter. The model of lead-acid battery I use is for small UPS and I bought it from a local electronics store.

I have some other footages but they were all early tests. I'll take the camera outside and shoot some more this weekend, now that my portable recorder is ready. More samples are coming.

The purpose of shooting 48p and recording every other frame is to reduce the rolling shutter effect(wobble/skew). Of course the camera can shoot straight 24p but the amount of skew would be twice as much.

Daniel:
The noise I get at 0 gain is visible at low light, too. I don't think it would be a problem when shooting outdoor or well-lit scenes. I can live with it if that's the best we can get, but I wouldn't use any gain higher than 0 db.

I wonder if anyone can comment on a comparison between the 5D MArk II and the Sumix camera.
Both cost about 2500 USD (2700 USD for the 5D)
So the 5D Mark II has the bigger sensor + better low light.
It has an integrated recorder - 38 mbps H.264 while the Sumix requires the additional expense of a tethered PC.
Sumix allows RAW capture while the 5D does not.
Sumix attempts to reduce rolling shutter while we are stuck with the 5D rolling shutter unless we can shoot 48P as well..

Any other comparisons ?

I have both the Sumix and the 5D Mark II.

The rolling shutter is about the same as on the Sumix, if not slightly less. Both the cameras have contrasting advantages.

Daniel: What kind of contrasting advantages?

Additional Thought: Couldn't the computer rig be set up to record to SD cards or Compact Flash to reduce size and weight?

Hi Daniel. You are in a unique position here - would you mind clarifying the contrasting advantages..?
Thanks!

I have both the Sumix and the 5D Mark II.

The rolling shutter is about the same as on the Sumix, if not slightly less. Both the cameras have contrasting advantages.

SMX-12A2C outputs 12bit uncompressed raw at 1-60fps, the 5D2 outputs 8 bit heavily compressed h.264 at only 30 fps

SMX-12A2C provides complete manual control with no restrictions, the 5D2 has no manual control other than exposure compensation.

SMX-12A2C is only a camera, the 5D2 has audio & video capture built in

SMX-12A2C is not very light sensitive without introducing a lot of noise, the 5D2 has phenomenal low light sensitivity.

SMX-12A2C has a 2/3" sensor which is ok, the 5D2 has a 35mm sensor.

SMX-12A2C requires a laptop/mobile computer to capture and operate, the 5D2 is small and works out of the box.

SMX-12A2C uncompressed RAW videos take up a huge amount of space, 5D2 output file size is much smaller.

SMX-12A2C outputs sharpest and most detailed and natural 24p videos, 5D2 videos still look good but options in post are more limited especially with compression artifacts.

SMX-12A2C needs a low pass filter, but the 5D2 has aliasing (due to it capturing only every 3rd line) you can only avoid with diffusion filters.

SMX-12A2C Is very flexible with many different possibilities, custom software, hardware, possibilities for 3D and much more. The 5D2 firmware is encrypted.

The Sumix camera is good if you want to build a camera to your own specifications and don't mind investing the time and money in developing software, designing a production workflow, and researching hardware.

Both of them will have you jumping through hoops.

Hi Daniel - the 5D "possibly" gives an uncompressed 10-bit 4:4:4 HDMI at a 3:2 aspect ratio using Video + Face Recognition mode.
It is 1620 x 1080 with black bars on the side..
I think its uncompressed on the Live View as it crops the top and bottom when you press record. Also 3:2 is the native aspect ratio of the sensor.
The Face Record (Or Recognition) is needed to turn off the rectangle in the middle of Live View - the Overlay can be turned off in the menu.

I have no way of checking if the signal is uncompressed - if you can suggest a test, I can contact my friend and we can test this..

Here are some more random shots I put together. I've upload it on to Vimeo:
SMX12A2C Test Shots on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/3852558)

Please download and watch the original AVI file(~80MB). Even that one is highly compressed and has some compression artifacts not in the uncompressed files.

There are indeed aliasing issues. You can see them in the wide-angle shots (e.g. the building on the upper-right of the 4th shot) where the lens' resolution appears to be higher than the sensor's. I think an OLPF is needed.

Eric,

Thanks for the sharing the video, it looks great.

I would be very interested in trying out your software. If this is possible to arrange please let me know. Maybe we can even collaborate on development.

Thank you Daniel,

The current version of my software was written specifically for my PC hardware setup and most likely won't run on other system. I'll see what I can do when I have time to.

Here are some more random shots I put together. I've upload it on to Vimeo:
SMX12A2C Test Shots on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/3852558)

Please download and watch the original AVI file(~80MB). Even that one is highly compressed and has some compression artifacts not in the uncompressed files.

There are indeed aliasing issues. You can see them in the wide-angle shots (e.g. the building on the upper-right of the 4th shot) where the lens' resolution appears to be higher than the sensor's. I think an OLPF is needed.

That looks f**** great ... it looks better than my 5DMK2 ... Aliasing issues, what lenses you use?

I was going to bouhgt sumix, but they just dont answer to mails. I already bought arriflex with lenses from 9.8 to 240mm to use with 12A2C, but then come 5DMKII, so I bought it, because I have so many canon lenses. I also bought nikon to canon converter to use manual nikkors to control f-stop.

Where is that 80 mb avi? Have you any pictures of your camera.

Johannes
www.cameratuning.fi

Hello Johannes,

Thank you for the comment. The avi file can be found on the bottom-right corner of the Vimeo page.

Recently I've acquired several old 16mm lenses. It turned out that the lens matters a lot. The Nikon 50mm F1.4 I used in that test footage was too soft for the sensor. I'll post some new samples shut with other lenses.

The samples were shot with the program I wrote using the camera SDK. I chose a workflow very different from the Sumix's software's. IMO it's very difficult to get similar results using Sumix's current software.

Here you can find some picture of my camera setup:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/alternative-imaging-methods/104870-sumix-2-3-1920x1080-cmos-35.html

I am developing a "freeish" uncompressed DI workflow (0K to about 8K) for making feature films and was wondering if the SMX-12A2C holds sync speed well enough to be within 1 frame in four minutes of shooting when you use an external WAV recorder for double system sound shooting?

Is there a flash/beep feature for the first frame to act as an auto-slate, or would I need to use a clap board?

We are doing tests for filmout on Vision 2383 print film using my DANCINEL.EXE (tm) with a ROSCO #22 filter off a 1600x1200 LCD monitor, we could resize the 1920x1080 images to letter-box in that, or do a crop and resize for 'Scope... Tests using H.264 from a Canon camera had issues with macro noise and frame rate conversion, so I am looking at uncompressed 24fps camera options.

Dan Hudgins
tempnulbox [at] yahoo [dot] com
The official DANCAD3D (tm) Beta Test Web site. (http://www.DANCAD3D.com)

Okay I got my sumix and ordered for PC for tuning... intel miniitx dualcore and 128gb flash drive + 12 volt system... and if have to subcontract a arri to c-mount converter for my arri lenses

Eric, your software, is it posiible to buy (?$) , try?... is it possible to capture image squences with sumix or how do you convert those to DNG, with software? and those DNGs are able to open forexamble in photoshop as RAW

Any other software recommend to sumix?

I tried sumix soft with my old amd, what is too slow to, but I got footages / testing while waiting for a mini PC to arrive. Calibration, exposure & other etc. quite hard to get colors look even passable, but ayway trail looks promising

Okay, I got that video project PC ... so my first quick test shot of jackdaw with sumix + 300mm telecentry ... here is link to video :D
Index of /sumix (http://cameratuning.fi/sumix/)
Original was 3.3Giga... and packed from VLC is 5.9mb

I dont have any other videosoft at my "PC" than, what came with a sumixsoft and it's very difficult to handle. My all videosofts are at my mac, FCP, AE, Color...
So I export avi and moved it to my mac, but only program what showed it was VLC player,
so I was not able to adjust anything. I tried to find wraw to quicktime, but
no succes ...

and few picts of my quick assemble bare-pc. I just wanted to try is system working.

Hello Johanes,

Sorry for the late reply.

That's a long lens you have there. Your system looks promising. Great footage, too.
There seems to be some transcoding problem of the footage. The resolution seems to be only half of the original.

The program I wrote saves the raw data in DNG sequence directly. DNG sequence can be opened as footages in Adobe AE, plus the varies adjustment you get with Adobe Camera Raw. I don't think there's any program out there that can convert Sumix's raw format to DNG. The only other software I know that support the SMX-12A2 camera is Norpix's SteamPix, but I've never used it. Currently I don't have any plan to sell my program. It's far from commercial quality anyway.

Do you have trouble connecting the camera? I usually have to redo the connecting procedure 2 or 3 times before it succeeded.

The program I wrote saves the raw data in DNG sequence directly.

I don't think there's any program out there that can convert Sumix's raw format to DNG. The only other software I know that support the SMX-12A2 camera is Norpix's SteamPix, but I've never used it. Do you have trouble connecting the camera? I usually have to redo the connecting procedure 2 or 3 times before it succeeded.

Hello Eric,
and thanks for you answer and I have no hurry with this project, I have about 50 other proj.sessions going on, for example my I'm try to do 360° panoramas. One demo at Sibeliustalo virtualtour demo (http://www.virtualtour.fi/sibeliustalo) and here panorama with movie
Movie in 360° panorama (http://asuntoesittely.fi/movitest/) )

Lense, Yes that quite loooong... I bought old arriflex st and I got 8 lenses for that,
I have from 9.8 to that 300mm... to 5DMK2 from 15mmFE to 400/2.8 & 1.4x and 2x, but there is no conversion for those I think?

DNG will be only I need now, I dont need long videos, raw workflow is familiar to me
(Camera tuning - Home (http://www.cameratuning.fi)).... Yes and I only record 1280x720/25 fps/12 bit for this test, but I tried also 50 fps at same size and it worked. I would like to try to batch process those in PS and the pull it back to video and to FCP / color... but not sure yet...
Maybe that avi wraw to AppleProRes would be also fine. So many unsolved things yet.

And usually, yes, few time to get connected

cheers
- johannes

I wrote some software for the Sumix camera that captures frames to DNG using the Adobe SDK and has an interface modeled after the SI-2K system. It's not complete but has worked well with my touch screen for basic functionality. Unfortunately a few weeks ago my camera was bricked. Now it won't turn on or respond to any Ethernet events.

My software may have had something to do with it, I just don't understand how. Unless there is a major bug in the SDK I accidentally tripped. This has been a big setback, I had planned to release the software for free.

I have not had a chance to return the camera to Sumix. I will contact them next week and see if it's possible to arrange.

Update to my DIY HD CAM... PC got a new home, "Kulta Sula" vegetable oil can, maybe the ugliest cam in universe, some pictures at my web page: )

Camera tuning - DIY HD videocam (http://cameratuning.fi/index.php?page=diy-cam)

Eric, Johanes, Daniel et al - so far, what do you think of your Sumix camera.

Would you recommend it as studio head?

I have Zeiss 100mm Macro with Nikon mount - would that be a good sharp lens used via C-Nikon adapter?

How do you record sound?

Do you transcode DNG to Cineform for real-time editing in Premiere Pro?

Thanks!

Eric, Johanes, Daniel et al - so far, what do you think of your Sumix camera.

Would you recommend it as studio head?

I have Zeiss 100mm Macro with Nikon mount - would that be a good sharp lens used via C-Nikon adapter?

How do you record sound?

Do you transcode DNG to Cineform for real-time editing in Premiere Pro?

Thanks!

Hi, I haven't found a way to convert those sumix raw files to DNG and not even that avi uraw to something that mac FCP can read* (I got bored), so untill I find solution for those, I can't recommend. But I'm mac user and don't know much about PC...(* if I dont count that very poor VLC player convert)

for sound
I have now Sony PCM-D1, but when I'll have time I try to do this kind of system (6ch target). I have already lynx AES card.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/geekslutz-forum/175804-recipe-how-cook-best-class-2-ch-pre-amp-d-convertor.html

Does anybody have a .raw file for download. I would like a sample file to try and process. Thanks in advance!

If someone has some RAW frame files from Sumix I would be interested in that also.

I have DNG from Acam dII, SI-2K, and Kinor-2K I have been using to develop a new de-Bayer program for my "freeish" uncompressed DI system.

It would be nice to have an option in my menus for Sumix as well, there examples could use some additional color grading, the CC part of my system could clean up the color maybe.

I hope to have my de-Bayer out after April 2010 maybe, its about 60% written for Digital Cinema use.

To get RAW data from the Acam dII files you just skip the 512byte header and read the 12bit packed (two pixels in three bytes) image data for 2048x1092 resolution, there is black on the sides since it is only about 1920x1092 image.

Dan Hudgins
tempnulbox [at] yahoo [dot] com
The official DANCAD3D (tm) Beta Test Web site. (http://www.DANCAD3D.com)

I am still working on my de-Bayer program for Digital Cinema use.

Its about 80% done, so I may post it this summer.

I am working on DPX support now so it should be able to convert true RAW sensor data to DNG or DPX, as well as TIF and BMP and a few other file types with color correction.

I made some changes to my "freeish" DI/CC/NLE/MIX program so that the CC control screens can be used on computers runing Windows XP Home (tm) that have problems with the higher resolution SVGA modes, it can not be used in "Safe mode" 640x480 when the other modes do not work, so it is at least usable, you can still process 6K+ TIF frames, its just the preview that is limited on some computers. Its up for download at my web site.

If anyone have true RAW sensor data and would like their Digital Cinema camera supported you can contact me by email and I can look into adding an option for your camera in my setup menus.

Dan Hudgins
tempnulbox [at] yahoo [dot] com
The official DANCAD3D (tm) Beta Test Web site. (http://www.DANCAD3D.com)
San Francisco, CA USA

Someone saw my post and sent me a SUMIX *.RAW file for testing, and I added some support in the de-Bayer program I am working on, but the sample file had the in camera processing ON which prevents getting good results and my making a calibrated preset for the color correction.

If someone can send another *.RAW file please do these things:

1) White balance, disabled.

2) Median noise filter, disabled.

3) 12bit uncompressed format.

4) Gamma correction, disable.

5) RAW size 4GB or less.

In other words, only the sensor data in the file, no processing at all.

My email is in my previous posts here...

I added some SUMIX "RAW" 12bit support to the de-Bayer program I am working on, but so far I have not gotten any real True RAW data without the gamma correction, white balance, and noise reduction. So I am still waiting on that to see what the data really looks like. I asked someone at SUMIX (tm) for shots of 90% White, 18% Gray and 2% black cards and some colored subjects such as an orange to set the saturation and ISO curve with, but they did not reply to that request.

Another issues, is how easy is it to fit a good OLPF+IR/UV cut filter to the Sumix camera, all I have seen on their web site is a simple IR filter, but an OLPF is needed to reduce chroma moire and aliasing, so I am not clear why they might not have addressed that issue?