Daniel, how is the camera performing with low light levels? when does grain appear?

I am getting ready to do a new set of tests this weekend. Hopefully I will have time. This time I will attempt to get a better idea of the dynamic range and will take it through a variety of gain and light levels.

However, I don't believe that the full potential of this camera has been reached... So, i'm not so sure that any of it should really hold any weight. I am now considering shooting a film with it, so tests should give me an idea of how far I can push it in its current state.

I got a C-Mount -> Canon FD SLR mount adapter for ~$30 and took a few min to try it out. I did not have any Canon lenses at home, only Minolta so I hot glued them onto the end.

http://www.dreamstonestudios.com/delete/boat1.jpg
http://www.dreamstonestudios.com/delete/boat2.jpg

50mm SLR f/1.7 Minolta set at f/4... 0 gain, 12bit, 24 fps, I think it was at 36mhz. Behaves more like an 80-100mm on this camera.

Looking at a chart here...

35mm -> 16mm
-------------------
14mm | 5.6mm
16mm | 6.4mm
20mm | 8mm
24mm | 9.7mm
28mm | 11.3mm
32mm | 13mm
40mm | 16mm
50mm | 20mm
85mm | 34mm
100mm | 40mm
135mm | 54mm


I took some Canon lenses home, a 50mm and a 28mm. I would like to find a manual Canon FD 24mm or even a 20mm.

36mhz is the shutter? how was it lit? did you had any chance to test the latitude? when does grain start to appear?

36mhz is the shutter? how was it lit? did you had any chance to test the latitude? when does grain start to appear?

No, had no time to do anything other than throw the SLR lens on and see what that looked like. We have some clients right now keeping us pretty busy. Should have more time after this week.

36mhz is the shutter. The image is a bit brighter with 36mhz but there is a little rolling shutter distortion. IMHO its in tolerance, others may say otherwise. It would depend a lot on the situation. What your shooting, how its moving, how the camera is moving, and what light you have to work with... But I would not go any lower.

It was lit with ambient sunlight coming through windows and a 1,000w softbox about ~5 feet away.

36th of a second is 36mhz?

36Hz would be 1/36th sec... 36mhz is 1/36000000th sec :P . are you talking about shutter or the pixel clock? my guess would be that you mean you are running at 36mhz pixel clock, and altasens does 2 pixels per clock... so 72MPps which at 1080p and 8b works out to ~34fps? this would probably give you a default shutter of almost 1/34th of a second since machine vision type cameras tend to default to full open shutter for best exposure...

total shot in the dark, but is that what you mean? :)

36Hz would be 1/36th sec... 36mhz is 1/36000000th sec :P . are you talking about shutter or the pixel clock? my guess would be that you mean you are running at 36mhz pixel clock, and altasens does 2 pixels per clock... so 72MPps which at 1080p and 8b works out to ~34fps? this would probably give you a default shutter of almost 1/34th of a second since machine vision type cameras tend to default to full open shutter for best exposure...

total shot in the dark, but is that what you mean? :)

Yeah its the pixel clock frequency. ~34 fps sounds about right. You can program it to expose at 24 fps, which improves light sensitivity.

Light sensitivity at both 50mhz and 36mhz is the same as long as the framerate is the same.

Hello everyone,

I've been following this project for some time but never posted on this before. It seems this thread is quiet for now. Is Sumix still developing the software toward digital cinema uses? What's the status of the current version?

It isn't that Eric, it is just that Sumix, despite following the steps of SI, doesn't have a clue about how to put the minimum required features on the firmware/hardware for being able to develop a successful approach.
Maybe they are just gathering experience to move to a higher goal...

From what I've gathered the camera head is capable of dumping 12-bit RAW data, and recording to Cineform RAW format is already working using StreamPix. So I would imagine only a more photographer-friendly software/UI is needed to do some basic shooting. Or am I missing something?

I have some coding background but nothing related to machine vision cameras. If I were to do it I think the easiest way is to record uncompressed RAW. The data rate of uncompressed 1920x1080 24p 12-bit RAW is around 600Mb/s, about the capability of a 3-HDD RAID 0, not so unthinkable nowadays. Cineform is great but to me the added cost is considerably high.

Of course there are hundreds of other features need to be added, but if things are on the right track, I think those can all be done in time. The idea of a SI-2K mini for 1/5 the price is very tempting. I hope this project will go on. I'm seriously thinking buying one when my bank account allow.

what do you guys think of "Panchromatic" cells? couldn't this be applyed to the summix camera? Bayer filter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_filter)

there is a reference to an early version: Image:RGBW Bayer.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:RGBW_Bayer.svg) wich i think it's the best of those, because there is equality in all color photosites plus a white photosite

this doens't give 4:4:4 but still al colors have the same amount of photosites plus an added bonus of more light because of the white one, wouldn't this be easy to add to the camera?

this wouldn¡'t give you more resolution but more light sensitivity

Hello Daniel,

This may be a little too late, but I think the reason your Cineform RAW AVIs look different from SI-2K's ones is because SI applies a 12-bit linear to 10-bit log transfer before the encoding while yours are untouched. SI does it to preserve the most of the 12-bit linear data into 10-bit, and though the image may look right, it isn't. Not mathematically anyway. It just so happens that the linear2log curve is very similar to a gamma curve.

A true linear (gamma=1.0) image will look very dark on a standard gamma 2.2 display. Though it may appear featureless at the dark area, the detail is still there. All you have to do is apply a 2.2 gamma correction in post to get a normal view. Make sure you use 16-bit/channel project setting if you are using AE, for if you clip it to 8-bit/channel you may get color banding.

Here are some test images of your clips. No CC was applied other than the 2.2 gamma correction.

Eric,

Yeah you are correct it is the gamma. There is a Gamma Correction option in the new software which appears to have the same result. The last few images I posted is with the option enabled.

Sumix is currently working on a software update with more features and better designed for our application.

what is the strange colors in the sails (the ones that aren't in shadow) in that picture:
http://www.dreamstonestudios.com/delete/boat1.jpg
it is due to the debayering? or some effect of the softness of the lens? is it the loss of optical resolution due to the use of an adapter for lenses much greater that the ones needed?

asuming that the effect is due to the lens, if some lens can make those kinds of effects in hight frequency areas (because the background doesn't display such effects) how can on know what lenses don't make those effects?

Well there are two things to keep in mind about the pictures...

First... I'm mixing daylight (~5600k) and tungsten (3200k) lighting. So colors are going to look a little funny. Especially when mixed in the (white) sails.

Second... The color filter in the camera is incorrect. It blocks some colors more than others and leaves a tinted and desaturated image.

I have been referred to the correct filter, but I'm going to wait for Sumix to provide the official hardware fix.

Well there are two things to keep in mind about the pictures...

First... I'm mixing daylight (~5600k) and tungsten (3200k) lighting. So colors are going to look a little funny. Especially when mixed in the (white) sails.

Second... The color filter in the camera is incorrect. It blocks some colors more than others and leaves a tinted and desaturated image.

I have been referred to the correct filter, but I'm going to wait for Sumix to provide the official hardware fix.

Were you referred to a third-party color filter? and is the fix provided by Sumix going to be a new filter or a color matrix (firmware) update as well?

The IRC-30 filter here:
IR cut-off filter (http://www.optics-online.com/irc.asp)

The filter I'm using right now cuts out red light, and when compensating with white balance it increases the noise by boosting the signal. Furthermore, the filter cuts out an additional 50% of all visible light. The camera is not performing as well as it should be.

I'm not sure which filter I have. My results are similar to:
http://www.dreamstonestudios.com/personal/daniel/SMX12A2C/Sumix/first_industrial.JPG

Here is a chart with the IRC-21 (cheaper filter)
http://www.dreamstonestudios.com/personal/daniel/SMX12A2C/Sumix/IRC21.JPG

Finally, the IRC-30 (recommended filter)
http://www.dreamstonestudios.com/personal/daniel/SMX12A2C/Sumix/IRC30.JPG

Images were provided by Sumix

That first color chart is TERRIBLE. Hardly any color information.

The IRC-30 gets you about about 70% there. If you add color matrix calibration, you can get a lot closer, but you can still see that the colors aren't pure.

See attached image.

Hello Daniel,

Can you confirm that the camera can be set to run 1920x1080, 24fps, 1/48 shutter speed (exposure time = 20.833ms) and 12-bit output, at the maximum pixel rate (74.76 MHz)?

I think this is the most common mode if we are using this camera for digital cinema works. To minimize the rolling shutter effect it's crucial to run it at the maximum pixel rate.

Thanks!

Eric,

I just tried setting the camera to that configuration, seems to work fine. The screenshot below will help answer your question. As far as I know, yes it is capable of running at the settings you mentioned.

That's great news, Daniel.

I noticed the exposure showed 0.769128ms, which is about 1/1300 shutter speed. I suppose it's the minimum value, isn't it? Otherwise it wouldn't make sense.

I'm planning to order one of the camera and write my own software. What I have in mind is recording uncompressed 12-bit RAW, real-time preview while recording, and a touch-screen UI like the SiliconDVR's.

Thank you for sharing the informations and doing the tests.

Eric,

I'm not sure how to interpret the exposure value. That is in fact the maximum setting. I did not try to override with a manual input but I don't think it will work. The maximum exposure value depends on the set frequency, at 10 MHZ it peaks at only 4.98 ms or so.

I'm going to try and order the IRC-30 filter tomorrow and figure out a way to mount it. The filter should make a considerable improvement to the picture quality.

I'm no expert but I think an optical low-pass filter is needed to eliminate aliasing. So maybe it's these OLPFs incorporated with IR cut-off function that you'll need:

Optical low-pass filter (http://www.optics-online.com/lpf.asp)

is there a need of low pass filter? how is aliasing showing? any clear example? oh, and Daniel, can you post a screenshot of every segment of that "settings" window you posted above?

Aliasing and Moire patterns (http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/DigPhotog/alias/)
Moiré pattern - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moir%C3%A9_pattern)

I think most hi-end digital cameras have OLPF. It's likely the original Sumix filter is one, too.

yeah i know that, that's why i suggested the use of that "new" patern in the bayer filter, but i guess that is not up to sumix but up to the maker of their imagers, that patern could get the same information from half the numbers of photosites, so we would be getting double amount of information, so a pixel binning thechnique should do to combat aliassing, but i gues sumix don't print the bayern patern in the imagers of their cameras

Quick update, I ordered the IRC30 filter earlier this week and it will be coming in the mail tomorrow.

I will try to find time this weekend to shoot a few more tests.

Here are the results from earlier today, shot with the new filter. Natural light only.

http://dreamstonestudios.com/personal/daniel/SMX12A2C/images/IRC30/1.jpg
http://dreamstonestudios.com/personal/daniel/SMX12A2C/images/IRC30/2.jpg

Daniel, do you have an idea where the pattern on the corner of the clock comes from?

Hi Daniel,

These pictures are gorgeous! To my eyes the resolution and dynamic range are very good. Even better if you can upload some footages.

The colors are not very different from your last pictures, though. Which is not a bad thing IMO. Raw data directly from the sensor are not optimized for human vision. Those Sony, Panasonic video cameras do a lot of processing like color matrix, white balancing, curves, before outputting the image. But those can all be done in post. recording raw data keeps the maximum flexibility for post processing.

There seem to be debayering artifacts. I'm not sure if that's what Gottfried Hofmann refers to but I think it can be easily fixed by choosing a more sophisticated debayer algorithm.

The artifacts may be from the debayer, but I'm not positive. I used just the bilinear setting, I regret not having enabled a better setting.

The colors in the images on my screen are pretty accurate to how the scene really looked. This filter is much better than the one I had on before. I'm still having to make some color adjustments, but this new filter requires a lot less.

Last I heard from Sumix was that they are working on a driver update. If I had some better software I would be happy to shoot and post some videos. I have been waiting for an update since July.

Hi everybody,

I'm new at the forum and I'm planning to get a Sumix-12A2C to build a system for my next projects.

I'm following your projects the last months, but I'm not sure what level of quality we could obtain yet. And the most important thing: the quality obtained will be by far better than other consumer camera of aproximate price? (HVX200...)

I think YES!, but in the practice the footage and images that I coud see make me doubt that this can be achieved...

I've got a 16mm Zeiss Super Speed lens set and an adapter to c-mount to test with the Sumix, I've read we need an IRC filter too...

What may need other hardware? (apart the PC/laptop..)


Thank you very much!

Jose from Madrid

For the price of it plus the needed extra hardware, better MOD a Scarlet from RED.

The camera is not 100% complete yet. The practice is more like development. Finding whats wrong with it and taking measures to correct. Also working with Sumix to add the features needed to make this a practical camera for filmmaking. Over the last few months the results have improved.

I'm waiting on a software update from Sumix which should come soon now. It will contain many new features and improvements.

Its hard to say what the hardware requirements will be. When I was using streampix with cineform raw codec the minimum for realtime recording was a quad core processor. They had it working on a dual core laptop but I was never able to find anything fast enough.

I hope the requirements are lower with the new software. Should have more information as soon as the new software is out.

Hi everybody,

I'm new at the forum and I'm planning to get a Sumix-12A2C to build a system for my next projects.
..... price? (HVX200...)
.....
adapter to c-mount to test with the Sumix, I've read we need an IRC filter too...
What may need other hardware? (apart the PC/laptop..)
Thank you very much!

Jose from Madrid

Hi
Same here, I have arri St with many lenses, also bolex with c-mount lenses. OK it is possible via adapter to use arri mount with c-mount? I'm also planing to buy The SMX-12A2C.

I had HVX-200 but got bored with it's image quality and sold it.

I allready have mini PC working with 12 volt and 7" touchView. I used it for recording,
but mayby with prosessor update it will be possible to use with summix.

http://cameratuning.fi/mymobile_75C7961.jpg

Hi Johanes,

Arri has used a series of different mounts including the Arri PL, Arri Bayonet, and the Arri S-mount. It is possible to find an adapter for some of them, if not all.

I think the Arri St came with different mounts depending on when it was built. If your looking for the Arri Bayonet mount there are a few adapters on B&H and one at Standard C mount to Arri Bayonet Adapter (http://www.whitehouseaudiovisual.com/Mount_2.html) but they are pretty expensive. I have not seen a c-mount adapter for PL.

I used a 12v computer similar computer to yours with the Sumix camera. It had a T7200 Core 2 Duo and a 7" LCD touch screen.
cappuccinopc.com : slimpro sp635b rohs compliant (http://www.cappuccinopc.com/slimpro-sp635b.asp)

There are some mini-itx motherboards available with support for quad core processors but I am hoping not to need one.

isn't is possible to use a 35mm adapter?

is there any relay lenses that make possible to use a 35mm adapter with the c-mount?

There are some mini-itx motherboards available with support for quad core processors but I am hoping not to need one.

Hi, Daniel

here is link to list of few dual core mini-itx motherboards. I think my mini PC is not enought to sumix, so I'll have to buy some of these after I found that converter.

Core Duo / Core 2 Duo Mini-ITX boards - MP3Car.com (http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/general-hardware-discussion/106509-core-duo-core-2-duo-mini-itx-boards.html)

Johanes,

Thanks for the link.

I have been looking at this one:
Newegg.com - Intel BOXDQ45CB LGA 775 Intel Q45 Mini ITX Intel Motherboard - Intel Motherboards (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121358)

The price is good, only $140. This is the best I have found so far. I'm tempted to buy it now but I will wait for some news about the required system specifications. This may be overkill.

Biel,

sure you can use a 35mm adapter but the camera would still need a lens of some sort to capture the image projected onto the ground glass. I am using 35mm optics with an c-mount to Canon FD converter but the crop factor is rather large.

Hello guys,

I've ordered my SMX-12A2C camera from Sumix. The estimated shipping date is Nov. 10.

I have started to write my own controlling software. I'll keep updating here when I have something to post.

Hi guys,

Sorry for the delay. The first SMX12A2 camera Sumix sent me was not working, so I had to return it and wait for them to send me a new one. It arrived last week and I finally got my hands on it.

I've done some basic tests on the controlling software and the SDK. So far it looks very promising. I'll post samples and more info soon.

Here are some test pictures. I have not build a camera body so what I can shoot is limited to the length of the Ethernet cable. And It's difficult to get the right framing/focus because I have to go back and check on my desktop computer's screen. All three were shot with Nikon 28mm lens, 1/48 shutter speed. I did some color correction but nothing precise.

I would like to do a project with a camera like this. But with the price of the 5DII this camera needs to be higher res or lower cost.

wow those shots look great! Eric can you post the original uncorrected shot of the dog? how many steps of latitude that camera seems to have?

have you seen the patern of blue and red colors in the burned areas of the shot of the city?

has the software imporved? you said you can actually see the frame in you laptop, is this when you're shooting or when idle?

Thank you Biel,

These pictures were captured using my own application program, which I have not finished yet. I saved the uncompressed 12-bit raw data and converted them to Adobe DNG format for processing.

I think the defect you referred to happens near the blown-out pixels only, as in any other bayer-pattern based cameras. It was difficult for me to check the exposure/focus. I had to bring that one almost 2 stops down in post to get a proper view. For de-bayering I think Adobe Camera Raw's doing pretty well.

As for Sumix's controlling software, yes you can see the image while capturing now, along with other improvements. It's just that I want features like 12-bit raw, touch-screen optimized UI, synced audio recording, a more production-oriented work flow, and that I have the resources to write my own program.

For the latitude... I'm not very experienced but I'd say it's around 8 stops. It's really S/N ratio when talking about digital camera's latitude. It depends on how much noise you can accept when digging up the darker area. I'm not too happy with the noise so far but I think it's good enough if controlled well. I have some ideas that may further reduce the noise, but I'll finish the main functions first.

Here's how the uncorrected color looks like. It's desaturated and green tinted as other raw output camera like Viper or SI-2K.

Eric,

Your results look great. What is the workflow like with your software? I would love to have a chance to try it out one day.

It's nice to see you on board :)


I have been really busy with work lately and not had much time to work with the Sumix camera. I also got my hands on a 5D Mark II a while back and that has not helped.

This month I received an updated camera and new software.

Sumix has made a lot of improvements to the software. Like Eric mentioned it is now possible to see what you are recording while you record. It automatically adjusts the picture to a preview setting. Also, you no longer have to specify how many frames to record. Just hit Stop or ESC when done.

They have included a high speed shutter mode. The camera shoots at twice the framerate to reduce the rolling shutter distortion and it really makes a difference.

Finally, Sumix has included a raw workflow. It is now possible to record 10 bit raw video. The raw file output can later be loaded into a raw to avi converter where lookup tables, white balance and channels can be adjusted before baking the video to AVI. Its a lot like working with a RED camera now.

The noise has been of some concern for me too. I wonder if it has anything to do with the heat. I had it on for about 1 hour and 30 min the other day and the case got so hot that it was almost too hot to touch.

But I have seen some great results from the Altasens 3562 found here: Modula Classic HD Cam (http://www.easylooksystem.de/documents/49.html)

I am confident that we can get a good clean picture.

Attached is a test shot with the new software and a picture of the camera and lens.

For the latitude... I'm not very experienced but I'd say it's around 8 stops. It's really S/N ratio when talking about digital camera's latitude. It depends on how much noise you can accept when digging up the darker area. I'm not too happy with the noise so far but I think it's good enough if controlled well. I have some ideas that may further reduce the noise, but I'll finish the main functions first.

Here's how the uncorrected color looks like. It's desaturated and green tinted as other raw output camera like Viper or SI-2K.

Eric,

The sensor in this camera ProCamHD3562 does not correct for FPN as in ProCamHD4562 or other Altasens sensors. Many lower cost sensors, like Micron sensors that we use in our SMX-M73 cameras also use Fixed Pattern noise smoothing. Although the FPN smoothing makes the image looks better at first glance, specially for low light conditions, it is non-reversible and removes the flexibility and control from the post processing phase. True raw is indeed without correction for FPN. FPN must not diminish the latitude (dynamic range) if corrected by calibration and look up table. Of course this is serious post processing as every sensor setting will make the FPN different.
I hope people will create post processing filters for non-linear correction of FPN, based on many example images at various senor setting for each individual sensor. The results then will be unmatched from that of those using cameras with automatic FPN correction. However if this proves to be unpractical for a large segment of our customers, then we must move on to ProCamHD4562.

Farhad

Daniel,

My targeted workflow is very simple:

1.The camera software save the uncompressed 12-bit raw data directly to .DNG sequences.

2.Import the DNG sequence into Adobe After Effects and do the one-light by adjusting the Camera Raw meta-data settings.

3.After that it's pretty much the same with any other workflow. Do 16-bit color grading and save to any standard format like QuickTime, AVI, Cineon, DPX, TIFF for further processing and editing.

The point is to preserve as much color information as possible and to be able to use existing production-proven software.


Farhad,

I think raw is good.
My understanding is that the FPN, under a given sensor setting, is an fixed "offset" value for each pixel (meaning, not caused by different sensitivity of each pixel), right? If so then if I can find the correct value for each pixel, I can get rid of it by simply subtracting it from the raw value, right? If my understanding is correct then I believe I can do it while recording instead of post processing.

The ProCamHD4562 sounds like an nice upgrade to me, though.

eric what a diference would make if you put a magenta filter infont of that green-ish raw image (kinda like the way they did for Zodiac) http://digitalcontentproducer.com/images/608MIL_zodiac_viperonsetacquisitionworkflow.pdf

would it keep a little bit more of latitude while lossing a bit of light? does using a lookup table affects the final latitude? i don't see a change in latitude in the "dog exaple" (both raw and corrected seem to have the same latitude) but still, would it help anything?

I recorded 12-bit raw data and according to Sumix the hardware LUT doesn't have effect on 12-bit output. If LUT is applied it could have impact on the latitude instead of helping it. I don't think there's any more latitude you can gain from the sensor when you record 12-bit raw.

Green-ish color means the sensor is more sensitive to the color green than the other two, which is not necessarily a bad thing because human eyes too are more sensitive to the color green. Adding a magenta filter may gain a little more latitude on red and blue channels and lose a little F-stop. But even if the channels are balanced the color will still look very desaturated. Without proper calibration it's very difficult to get correct looking colors.

The reason for this is that the RGB channels of the electronic cameras come from the red, green, blue filters put in front of the sensor cells, but in the real world it's impossible to make the filters pure red, green, or blue. Each of the 3 channels has some mixture of the other two. It's typical to incorporate a 3x3 matrix transform to calibrate the color. Every consumer camera does that before recording or outputing.

Adobe's DNG format has the built-in capability to store the color calibration matrix as non-destructive meta data. I have come up with a calibration matrix for my SMX12A2C camera matching the color output of my Nikon D70s. I don't currently have a Macbeth color checker board so I shot some random items of various colors. here's the comparison. Please do not view this as resolution comparison of any kind. The SMX shot was not properly focused. It's for color calibration only.