the onboard factory presets are really plain,understated and a major dissapointment.They need major improvement which even the official reviews & users acknowledging that.Yes,I've tried the presets availible here as a possible solution.Since the light apparently coming in is insufficient even the famous Vivid RBG preset unfortunately can't make the difference.BTW,I'm using both primarily for interior use.

In a direct side by side comparison to the GL-2's standard settings (with nothing boosted or subjected to gain on the GL-2) I find the following:

The A1's colors are flat,lifeless,dull,drab,uninsipiring,darkish,greyish and muted.The GL-2 colors are far significantly more vibrant,lifelike and pleasing to look at.I put the camcorders side by side (almost nose to nose) on pods,pointed them at slightly different angles at the same object and the difference in color quality & brightness was night and day to me.The stock GL-2 colors wins hands down!

One of the major causes I believe is the amount of light coming into both units even though they are recording in the same program/shooting mode such as TV (for example) at approximately the same exposure level to the extent possible. Again,comparatively speaking the A1 picture quality looks like someone threw a towel over the lens or put a dark filter over it!!The light level has to be boosted a minimum of 12-18 db in order to compensate for it being so dark in order to try to match it up to the same level seen on the GL-2's standard settings which aren'tboosted at all.Of course gain adds noise,artifacts and degradation and can & does look very "speckily" & grainy.I'm wondering if this is normal and to be expected or if something is definitely wrong with the A1.

My train of thoughts includes returning it back to the store & taking any losses before moving on in life.The experience with this thus far makes me think something is definitely wrong here and the origin is a mystery.Maybe it first needs a trip to the factory service center.That's where this forum comes in to try to hopefully salvage this situation.I'm hoping it's just me and not the camera.

For example...I put both units into TV 60 in SD4:3 mode (which I've used often for 5 years with the GL2) and was forced to boost the A1's exposure level significantly as described above which was necessary and unavoidable in order to try outright compete with the GL-2's.Keep in mind the AE shift was also 0 on the GL-2.

So that being stated where do I go from here?What needs to be done and tried?Is the above normal?Have any of you directly compared the exposure levels and colors out of the box between the 2 models?

How do I get the A1 to at least be on even parity with the GL-2 at a bare minimum?Do the color settings need major tweaking?What factors am I dealing with here?

Please,I'm relying on you experts to come up with a plausible solution in regards to these problems so I don't feel I wasted close to $3,600.

Thank you for taking the time to read this and to pitch in and contribute!!

What's up with the punctuation? Commas and periods, etc. need spaces after them.

You need to get off "Auto" and set up the cam to your liking.
The pic is flat because the cam offers a lot more control over the image
than any other cam out there. It's flat by design. It's up to you to find your style and palettes.

Don't rely on other users presets to please you. They are the vision of those who created them. Make your own.

For HDV, The HV20 is closer to the GL2 in terms of "out of the box" images.
You may want to try that cam if you don't want to invest the time in learning the A1.

It sounds like you need to learn to shoot with the A1's limitations in mind. The A1 is not the GL2 and therefore shouldn't be expected to preform like it. In your research leading up to getting the A1 (and you did research, right?), you should have discovered that these 1/3" HD camcorders can lose 2 stops easy over their SD counterparts because of how small the pixels are.

You may need to do a "Hard Reset"

Try this first, then read the following if no success:

Slide out the LCD screen and locate on the top of the cam a "button" that says "reset".

Remove your battery, SC card tape, etc.

Hold that "button" in for 15 seconds or so.

Re-install battery, and a tape.

Try shooting some test footage and see how it looks.


Colors so far out of whack as you descrbe just should not be, and if you are being truly accurate, you have a defective unit.

You should never have to think the A1's picture looks like it has a dark filter on it, that needs 12 to 18 db of boost to compensate for a darker image realtive to a GL2. That's just incredible. What were you shooting in these tests, and how did you light it?

Yeah, I know the A1's colors are "supposed"to be understated relative to a Panny or Sony, but not by that much. And certainly if you are using the Vivid preset and still find the colors lacking, something must be wrong.


I have had my A1 since December, and have never felt it lacking in any way on color rendition when compared to my Sony and Panny cams. The pre sets give it a real leg up against those cams as well, when you are ready to get more involved with the cam's settings.

The A1 should produce pleasing color out of the box. Mine did (does, still). As another poster stated, you should not have to rely on presets to save your color performance. They are however, quite useful to experiment with once you have gotten to mearn the cam a little.

I do not believe that you should have to learn to live with A1's "limits" in regards to color rendition, in my experience A1's color out of the box is very good.

Bruce, not meaning any disrespect... but based on your recent previous posts, and this one as well, you really need to spend time at the very least reading the manual while getting to know the A1.

Also, regarding the darkness you describe... perhaps you have a ND filter switched on, or maybe your iris needs to be open, or a high shutter setting? The reason I ask is that you don't mention anywhere regarding f-stop numbers, etc

Bill

All Sony 2/3" chip professional cameras come with a factory setting that's "flat," in my experience, and the Canon did too, which I like. I remember the old XL1 and its oversaturated look. I was sort of expecting that with the XH A1. It's a simple process to create one or more setups you like, but be sure to do it with a professional, properly calibrated monitor.

... but be sure to do it with a professional, properly calibrated monitor.

Bill, you are so right about this.

Until I had my HD monitor professionally calibrated, I was way off the mark on what I was seeing.

Probably most peoples viewing device is too bright, too contrasty and pushing red, among a hundred other possibilities.

Another fault with many TV's is they tend to bump up the sharpness, and that can really mess up an image, especially one shot in poor light.

Another fault with many TV's is they tend to bump up the sharpness, and that can really mess up an image, especially one shot in poor light.

Good call, Don and Jeff. So many televisions out there have their brightness, contrast, and color pumped up so much that the stock "muted" colors of the A1 look wonderful on the displays. At least the reds don't bleed.

Gents:

I respect all of your tips,criticism,thoughts,suggestions & opinions.First,The reason why I'm writing how to/need help series of posts is because my expectations of this units performance to date (had it now for about a month) have not been met,not even close!!Some of the differences between it and the GL-2 unfortunately produced a series of surprises to the downside which definitely proves that no 2 units are reasonably alike & fair comparisons may be limited.I'm sure there are forum members who have or will read this thread which currently own both models.It is especially to them that I address this appeal because if this A1 is not up to spec,I need to find that out quickly & deal with it.Am hoping that one or 2 would be willing to compare the performance of the two along with me in order to rule in or out whether the problems stem from a lack of knowledge,model limitations or the unit is partly defective.

I'd like to hear more comments & observations in regards to the apparent light level disparity of the A1 vs. the GL-2,because even if the colors are intentionally muted out of the box the point is that if the light level is artifically low & its not getting through like it should be that will automatically
have a dramatic & undesirable effect on coloration & a users perception of it.

Chris,I'll try to improve my punctuation and it's a good thing I'm not a writer.Your opinion and expertise is valued so please don't hold back,ok?

Eric,in my 3ccd camcorder experience I very rarely have used auto mode and certainly not recently.Thus far I've tried the manual,av and tv modes when shooting footage with the A1.More specifically,my mode of choice is TV mode.Yes,I confess the manual has not been yet read entirely through but I've spent time there.Manuals within themselves are not the whole story and things get omitted.Hands-on perspectives from users are invaluable.I want to get a nice vibrant,colorful look without being oversaturated,something akin to the GL-2 to the extent possible.I'd like to learn how to achieve that very much,however right now my primary concern is the light issue,because solving that may automatically solve the other.

Bennis,it's more than just a 1 or two stop difference in regards to the light.
I now have the A1 & the GL-2 on,pointed at the same thing,at almost the same distance from it & white balanced.The room is reasonably well lit with 3 lamps.The GL-2 color & sharpness levels are ar factory settings.The lens are physically about 10 inches apart.

A)GL-2 is set to TV 60,with the exposure lock active & set to a "neutral" setting of 0 within that range.
B)The A1 is also set to TV 60,with the gain on 0.

In order to equalize the light levels as seen on the LCD screens I have to do the following:
(1)I have to turn the GL-2's scroll wheel down to the maximum (minus 11) and still the A1 is slightly darker! OR.....
(2) I turn the gain on the A1 to about 12-18 db to compensate.

In any case the color as displayed is horrible.If someone could translate the above into the number of stops lost,please let me know.

Steve,I did the hard reset as suggested and nothing changed.In these tests I shot a well-lit corner of my living room at night.Seeing is believing.Please refer to the above.

Bill,the ND filters are definitely off and tried to match up the settings as close as possible.TV mode,the basis of comparison does not have f-stops displayed on either unit.Don't believe the GL-2 displays f-stops in TV mode,if thats not the case I apologize.

Bill #2,Unfortunately I'm comparing what's seen from the LCD of one unit to that of the other.I use the LCD to shoot almost exclusively & have a basic PC monitor,certainly nothing professional.The monitor comes in when capturing & editing.

Jeff,the contrast and sharpness levels on each are factory settings.

Ken,the A1's picture on my TV is still considerably more dark,bland and greyish comparatively speaking.

In regards to research:
Actually none of my local stores would stock this unit because of its high price unless I wanted to buy one,so I was forced to rely on Canons reputation,my years of experience with GL-1's and 2's,professional reviews and forums such as this which is a great place to acquire information.I took my time did research and weeks went by before taking the plunge. It was not a hasty decision and yes,in hindsight I probably did not ask all of the right questions.

That being said,please,are any of you willing to help me test out the units and compare the results of yours versus mine?For starters, how about the example which was given above in detail?Am open to any test you'd offer or being willing to suggest for comparative purposes.A special thanks to all who have participated thus far.

What should be the expected,normal and reasonable light difference between the A1 and the GL-2 at approx the same settings as achievable if any?

Any of you care to share any "warm" settings or presets with me that you find nice?

That's all for tonight and many thanks!

Bruce

For example...I put both units into TV 60 in SD4:3 mode


Bruce I have both cameras and did a similar test and found them to be very simlar...
..except!
I had my XH-A1 in HDV 60i mode, not SD.

I did one shoot ( a variety show) in SD mode and it was a huge mistake!
(Glad I had my GL1 and 2 as backups!)

My most recent wedding was shot in HDV 60i and down converted in camera. It's the best looking video I've ever shot. (GL1 since 2000, GL2 since 2003)

Try shooting in HDV and let us know how you make out.

Andy

Chris,I'll try to improve my punctuation and it's a good thing I'm not a writer.Your opinion and expertise is valued so please don't hold back,ok?
Nowhere in your whole post have you done what Chris suggested. Without spaces between punctuation, everything is jumbled together & hard to read.


Bill,the ND filters are definitely off and tried to match up the settings as close as possible.TV mode,the basis of comparison does not have f-stops displayed on either unit.Don't believe the GL-2 displays f-stops in TV mode,if thats not the case I apologize.

It's all in the manual, but here it is. Menu settings... Customize/Custom Display/Camera Data 1/01

Bill

Everyone,

I meant to say that I'm & was directly comparing the following:

a)A1 in HDV 1080 60i mode (which was reccomended to me by Canon)

versus the

b)GL-2 in SD4:3 mode.

Sorry for that major faux pas and hope it didn't confuse anybody.

Bruce

Bruce, just try this.

Close the LCD and use the VF. Go in full manual mode, HDV, put the cam in 24f at 1/48, load up stevens vivid preset and compare the light levels to the Gl2. It should be really close in color and exposure.

If not, try an over exposure by a stop or two. I don't find the light meter to be very reliable. I think it may be too senstive.

Everyone,

I meant to say that I'm & was directly comparing the following:

a)A1 in HDV 1080 60i mode (which was reccomended to me by Canon)

versus the

b)GL-2 in SD4:3 mode.

Sorry for that major faux pas and hope it didn't confuse anybody.

Bruce

Bruce,
Try comparing them in SD4:3 mode as well. My experience with the A1 is that it is a terrific SD pwrformer. I have used the GL2 before though not much, and lots of mileage with a Sony VX2100 and Panny. The A1 doesn't give much away to them in SD.
You should get tyhe same excellent quality SD from the A1 that you do with the GL2, with no apollogies necessary. I base that on about 9 months' worth of shooting the A1 mostly in SD mode.

Can you post a sample from each of what you are getting? I think doing that would really, really help evaluate the possible source of the problem.

Do these stark diferences in performance exist outdoors as well, or is it limited to indoor shooting?

I am now seeing occasions in my A1 where I get an odd orange cast over an entire clip. Occurrs randomly. Only occurrs indoors. Seems likely a lighting issue is throwing the auto white balance, even though I use a Lowell light setup with color-balanced bulbs.

So I must ask, are you using awb, or manually doing it? If manually, do you use warm cards, or...???
SW

I don't get it. You use 12-18 db of gain on the a1? Ofcourse it will look bad.

If you are only shooting indoors with domestic lamps, HDV is probably not the right choice. Try a Sony VX2100/PD170 or just stick with the GL2.

My experience, working outdoors with available light, is that the XH-A1 colours are very realistic and cut together with footage from an "un-tweaked" Sony FX1 very easily. AWB will give slightly cooler, duller results, especially on a dull day or at evening, than setting a manual white balance, and the dullness becomes more noticable if you are under-exposing. However, doing a manual white-balance in really dull conditions can over-do the warming, as I found recently!

I haven't played with the custom presets yet, except to try black stretch and low-knee gamma, to pull more detail from shadow areas and stop the sky from dominating the exposure on cloudy days, so all the above is based on using the default colour settings.

Down-converting from HDV to DV in-camera can perhaps take the shine off the images, ever so slightly. I have yet to try down-converting on a computer.

That's my tuppence...

This thread is no good without pictures.

Post some screengrabs :D

Anyone thought about a bad LCD screen on the A1?

Perhaps you could indulge my lateral thinking and try some tests to see if the issue is really in the A1's camera.

Using both the GL2 and A1:
1 - turn on color bars on each camera and compare the two LCD screens
2 - feed the same external video source (SD DV tape; analog video; or firewire from PC; etc.) and compare the LCD displays.

Are the results similar? BTW I missed whether the footage from both cameras look reasonably similar on the computer.

Good luck!

Sorry Gentlemen!

It will have to be tommorrow before I can catch-up,field test your latest reccomendations and acknowledge all of the contributors to date as I've run out of time for this day.It's really appreciated all of the interest you've taken in my plight and for the feedback to date.

To be continued soon.

Thanks for your patience & eagerness to solve the problem.

Bruce

A little background to hopefully help you all to see where I'm coming from,what my experience has been with the GL-2 in a particular setting and why its so crucial to have enough light to shoot in.

For about 1.5 years, I've had a program on one of the public access channels on local cable TV.It's content is religious with most of it consisting of a church service which I shoot live every 2-3 weeks on average.I do 99% of the whole thing myself from start to finish.Until last month,I used a couple of GL-2's with reasonably good results before taking delivery of the A1.There is plenty of light in the sanctuary with nice coloration resulting.Anything above TV 60 (which is my preferred shooting mode & level) was too bright and started to look washed out.Canon told me its better to shoot in 1/60th...TV60 mode for best results.Nothing brighter.

Last weekend,for the 2nd time at that location, I tried using the A1 instead of the GL-2 for the shoot.At the highest light level I could get from the lens while in the customary TV 60 mode (with no gain and using the factory settings with the exposure at a +0 setting),the pulpit and general area looked grey,drab and dark!I NEVER had that problem with the GL-2 ever.As a bonus when I looked at the material latter on at home, the footage had a distinct bluish tint even though I whitebalanced and it looked fine in the LCD when playing the tape back.Needless to say I wasted that whole effort.If I had the GL-2 like normal I would have had something to show.

My chief frustration is that it should definitely not perform like this.
That's said under the basic assumption that the A1 is at least a good and in thoery it should blow the GL-2 away when used in HDV mode.The lens is supposively better.Also,there should not be a great light disparity at roughly the same settings on both cameras.I should not have to boost the gain significantly to "match" the GL-2.

I took screen grabs,tried to upload them and don't know if they were sucessfull so you can see for yourselves what a dramatic difference there is,too much so.If they failed, please drop me a line and I'll do my best to e-mail them to you.

Another frustrating discovery (which is new to this thread) is the great loss of light (on top of it being on the dark side to begin with as described above) as I zoomed in towards the pulpit.It flew through the stops which only served to compound the situation by making things even worse.

End of this particular post.

This is not a great picture I'm just using it to demonstrate the light variance coming in to both camera.

Settings are TV 60/exposure lock on/scroll wheel steady and neutral at a +0 setting.

Now,I'll try to get the A1 to upload.

Bruce- Here's a few caps from last week. HDV to SD and 24 p/f on the A1 and HV20.

HV20 and GL2 ( in Ewa -Marine Bag) are just on semi auto with a warm white balance.

The A1 on the turtle is manual, no preset with a very warm color balance (on the top of the cam)

The sunset is my own really saturated preset.

You can compare.

close by with the 2 units lens side by side approx 6-9 inches apart on pods.

Shooting mode was HDV1080 60i/TV 60 mode with the iris cranked on "wide open"!!

Keep in mind this was taken with no gain and with the stock factory settings out of the box.

Well,I guess the Equivalent TIFF file is bigger than what I can upload here.

So,here is a tiny jpeg file which will have to suffice.

Will mail orig tiff file on request

Sorry!

GL-2 one. What camera took what shot?

Sorry I missed it.

Liked the sunset picture.

Would you be willing to do a indoor shot,at night and post 2 pics of the same thing like I did please?

It looks more and more like I have a bad A1.

Thanks,more to come on another night.

Bruce

Cripes man, both of those grabs are heinous!

The A1 looks clean, albeit dark, for out-of-the box. I’ve never used “TV mode” but I suspect that’s your problem.

Color me presumptuous, but I think you may have a defective GL2!
What the hell with that tiff? It looks like it was taken from a ’94 web cam.

Edit: Your GL2 tiff at 100% is over 720X480 on my screen. At 50% it looks correct.

Mouse over my pics and the file names are the model. The GL2 is the 4x3 turtles going into the water.

I’ve uploaded some “low light” A1 grabs. I’m a little busy right now editing this turtle stuff. Trust me when I tell you that both the A1 and Gl2 should take noise free, well light shots of your scenes. It’s a living room with a 60 watt bulb right? There should be no issues.

Honestly, I have no idea what’s going on with your cams. Green Box both and take those again.

Bruce, either you're doing something horribly wrong... or your A1 has something horribly wrong with it. I'm still betting it's a ND or high shutter value issue

Bill

Bruce,
What does the A1 look like on Automatic? I too use my A1 for a lot of religious filming indoors, and never a problem. I keep it on automatic during these services that I tape. Yours should not have any issues with such a filming environment.

Does it have the same issue outdoors as well, or just indoors?

How are you setting white balance?

Just for fun, try those same shots again but set wb manually using a 18% photo gray card, or maybe "warm cards". I think you may have a white balance issue, where something is fooling it.

My suggestion.

NEVER EVER USE TV60! I'm sorry, but it looks like junk, on the GL-2 and the A1.

ALWAYS shoot in Manual mode and try out the custom presets on these forums. I think the VIVIDRGB would be your best bet. Everyone knows that factory settings always suck, and unless it's a consumer camera, that's how it should be. It allows the owner to customize the camera to their own liking instead of everyone sticking with the factory setting.

And honestly, any footage will look bad without good lighting. Even the most professional cameras will make footage look horrible without proper lighting.

I think white balance is the least of his worries at the moment. Look how dark that is!

I grabbed my A1 & somewhat replicated a similar shot... floor lamp in corner, etc., but kicked in ND1, ND2. Also tried a high shutter (up to 1000 I think), iris wide open & my results were similar to Bruce's in all instances.

Jerrod, why so adamant regarding not shooting in TV60? I do all the time but use Exp Lock so I have manual iris & shutter control.

Bill

Agreed wholeheartedly, Tv mode + Exp. Lock is the way to go. It's the best of both worlds; it's full manual control (identical to M mode), plus AE at the push of a button.

I just shot 20 hours of video with the A1 (NTSC) in Europe using Tv mode.

I needed to make sure the shutter was 1/100.

I used exposure lock and adjusted the iris with the ring since the light was different across the room. I also used 3db of gain. I used the factory settings for color. Everything looks great.

I don't know what could be different about the picture between Tv mode and M mode. I think nothing.

In the picture posted, what was the shutter speed and the f stop? Also, what was the wattage of the light bulb. And what was the zoom setting of the lens. I think those numbers hold the secrets to way-dark images problems.

I would like to see the light bulb shot in one more comparison: one with the ND off and one with the ND on with all the other settings untouched.

I would also like to see the light bulb shot in Green Mode.

Speaking of presets:
Wolfgang, a very friendly and resourceful German guy, has done extensive tests before coming up with a set of three excellent presets (four, actually, but you can skip one) for three different gain settings: -3dB, +6dB, +12dB.
You can find them here:
http://www.fxsupport.de/20.html
(scroll down to the bottom)
They worked very well for me.
Of course, I'm speaking about PAL "territory"; not sure they would work as well in NTSC land, but I think it's worth giving them a try.

Vasco

if it's not too late you may want to return/exchange your XHA1..I have and still use the GL-2 in multicam shoots with two XHA1s and they matched up pretty good right out of the box..with a little tweaking they match up even better for me. unless u have a "bad" XHA1 i'm not really sure why u are having the problems u are...good luck

Gentlemen:

I've evaluated what's been said in this thread,combined it with my own investigation which included 2 phone calls to Canon tech support and have decided its more likely than not that there's something wrong.I'm going to try to persuade the retailer to swap it out for a brand new unit and if they agree,they can send this one back to Canon to do with it whatever they will.

I'm commited to making this acquistion a success if at all possible because I have faith in this brand,the quality of the workmanship and want to make it work out in the end.I also value what's been said by all those who have spent time,effort and energy in offering advice and suggestions and for taking an interest on my perplexing situation.To all,thanks very much.

If the retailer refuses because I'm currently 5 days past the money back guarantee period,I've set up a case file with Canon and it'll proceed from there.So unavoidably there will be time lost but its better than continuing to beat my head against the wall in frustration and wearing myself out trying to get something that won't work as intended in its present condition.I don't think it will matter what mode I use & that anything will ever change without help.

I'd welcome any comments and views about losing so much additional light while zooming in,any gl-2 vs a1 frame grab comparison postings taken (especially indoors and/or at night) and any other types of tests between the 2 models in regards to level of light.

This saga is not by any means over but a new chapter will most probably begin starting tommorow morning in this journey.If any of you would like to hear what happens as this story continues to develop,please let me know.I need all you good wishes of luck to get back on track and turn this experience into a happy one.

Good night from Central Massachusetts and my thanks certainly extends to all of you.You're great bunch of guys!

Bruce

I would like to be helpful, but it would be helpful if the numbers I requested above were available. Do you have the numbers? Or is all this being tried in the dark, so to speak.

As far as comparing the GL to the A1, I think that's an all around waste of time.

Two months ago I shot 4 hours of stage performance using a PD150 a Sony TRV and a GL camera (not mine). Every second of the GL footage was thrown in the trash, because it was so bad in comparison to the other two cameras.

I think white balance is the least of his worries at the moment. Look how dark that is!

I grabbed my A1 & somewhat replicated a similar shot... floor lamp in corner, etc., but kicked in ND1, ND2. Also tried a high shutter (up to 1000 I think), iris wide open & my results were similar to Bruce's in all instances.

Jerrod, why so adamant regarding not shooting in TV60? I do all the time but use Exp Lock so I have manual iris & shutter control.

Bill

Eh, sorry about that. I just assumed that was the problem. Not to mention it was almost 4 in the morning when I made that post, lol. (Ignore the fact that it's almost 4 in the morning again).