http://displaydaily.com/2007/09/17/red-laser-hd-capacity-discs-brings-new-life-to-dvds/

Built on Red laser multi layer technology, the players will hit the market in the $180.00 dollar range. (Costco, RadioShack, Amazon)

Of course, they need more titles. Supposedly the players will uprez existing DVD's nicely...but, I'd need to see it.

I can't keep up with the format war, grin. It can only get more and more interesting as the competition heats up further.

heath

Good. Maybe Apple's new Mac Pros won't have to tack on an extra $600 bucks for the Blu-Ray burner!

Even if this is promising the marketing machine for HD-DVD and Blu-ray are probably way too far ahead for this to ever really get off the ground.

I say "too late"!

I personally think people have just now gotten used to HD-DVD and Bluray on the sales racks, a new format so soon is just going to confuse people even more, not decrease it. Their advertising will also be playing catchup as well. On top of all of that, they're still missing the point with going to blue laser technology, the storage!!! Granted, 200gb is excessive for most movies, but 30gb is far too little for future HD content (ie. HD behind the scenes, multiple featurettes, DVD-ROM games, ect.). Big movies like "Lord of The Rings" and "Matrix" come to mind, not in the movies themselves, but all of the special features that go with them.

If you could have everything on a single disc, that would be better then sorting through pages of DVD's in big collector's sets. TV shows as well would benefit. Each episode being transferred/remastered to HD alone would eat up that 30gb per disc. Obviously, a 200gb blue laser disc would be better to have for that kind of product. That way people don't have to dedicate shelf after shelf for TV show seasons.

Also, this product will also be competing with newer formats being released, particularly those holographic storage discs that are supposedly a year or two away if I remember correctly.

Someone will probably release a 1080p Blu-Ray/HD DVD combo player for $250 or less, and then the format war will be over. Frankly, I can't see why the hi-def players cost so much -- upwards of 10 times what a DVD player costs. Are blue lasers that expensive?

Expensive because they aren't mass produced yet. That'll change.

But it's also supply and demand, and the companies taking advantage of the novelty and unavailability of the products.
Sell for more if they can, right?
Not nice, but smart for profits.

If a third Hi-Def Disk format comes out and the consumers see the disk prices are cheaper and the consoles are cheaper then that format will rise to the top.

Wow, it will be on sale in the US in October? Will new DVD authoring software need to become available as well upon its release or will we see patches or updates to the current software tools already in use?

Frankly, I can't see why the hi-def players cost so much -- upwards of 10 times what a DVD player costs. Are blue lasers that expensive?

As with most technology, you are paying a premium for a couple reasons. The main one is usually for the manufacturer or inventor to recoup their R&D costs. But in a free market society such as ours, we, the consumers, are ultimately a big part of the selling price. We either pay it, or we don't.

-gb-

I'm not technical on the subject but I'm pretty sure I heard that the clean-room standards and machine calibrations it takes to make blue laser Blu-Ray discs are much tougher and more expensive than red laser. So the price is more than mass production, they're also harder to produce.

If a third Hi-Def Disk format comes out and the consumers see the disk prices are cheaper and the consoles are cheaper then that format will rise to the top.

Not if there's almost no mainstream movie content. This format is DOA and Blu-ray is winning the format war, at least in the US.

Not if there's almost no mainstream movie content. This format is DOA and Blu-ray is winning the format war, at least in the US.

Like I said, I want to see the quality of the product before making a judgement...but, the technology of a multi-layer disk that this company has developed will translate to Blu-ray when it becomes more affordable for the masses.

To be able to get high quality HD with the faster red laser at an affordable price could be huge for the whole industry...even if they have to get established in the Asian market first.

I'm more interested in when they develop the DVD writers for this format along w/ their authoring software. You would think that some of the big companies like Microsoft and Apple might want to look into a more affordable high storage disk solution.

I'm more interested in when they develop the DVD writers for this format along w/ their authoring software. You would think that some of the big companies like Microsoft and Apple might want to look into a more affordable high storage disk solution.

I don't see any reason for anyone to back this format in markets where blue-laser discs are already taking hold. Not only do we not need the further confusion, but using many layers on a single disc isn't particularly desirable because it would be inherently less reliable. If we do use multi-layer technology it will be to get hundreds of gigabytes on a single disc, not to recreate the capacity of current blue-laser discs in a more complex way. Plus the stated price of the players won't offer any meaningful advantage over HD-DVD and only a little over Blu-ray. Definitely DOA.

Well, here's an interesting update on the release...

http://community.tvguide.com/blog-entry/Dvd-Guy/Hd-Vmd-Indepth/800026706

Looks like they are about to make a push to sign on the major studios:

...But the main question for USA and Canadian consumers is, "where are the films?" Solomon notes that they really haven't done a "full court press" with the studios yet, to sign them up for releases on the VMD format, but expects to begin discussions in the next few weeks. Solomon's been in content distribution for 35 years; his relationship with the studio heads is excellent, and he is planning to discuss VMD content with all North American studio heads, both the majors and independents, during the last half of November. He's aware that some studios present themselves as "exclusive" to one of the existing hi-def formats, but he believes that these studios really don't know VMD yet, and when he shows them NME's system, there is a possibility that they will realize that the number of VMD players planned for manufacture will lead to a strong revenue base much faster than with existing HD formats. NME points out that Blu-ray and HD DVD system prices started out hundreds of dollars higher than they are right now, where VMD models started life at an under-$200 consumer cost, and will go down from there. Film titles are expected to cost $19.99 for most, and maybe a few as high as $29.99...compared to a $30-$40 SRP for most HD DVDs and Blu-ray Discs. NME is go to try to get the studios to see the logic of support their system at a fraction of the cost of the existing two systems, and hopefully great things will happen after those meetings occur. No guarantees, they say, but they are very hopeful. If the studios agree with this logic, then they should be able to ramp up on any given VMD release faster than implementing a blue-laser technology disc for the same film...

Looks like they are about to make a push to sign on the major studios:

I can't imagine any major studio backing this format now that consumers are buying the other two types of players - who wants to be involved in making it a three-way race? A more plausible application would be for independent distribution to corporate clients who buy the player as part of the project, but even there I don't see it. Why mess with multiple layer breaks when Blu-ray holds 25 GB on a single layer, or just play HD files from a computer and skip all these disc-based format entirely?

quote: "Why mess with multiple layer ..."
money, man, money...
why mess anyway with any of the new format to see what you already got on cheap DVD with a nice quality.
the difference will be made today by writing on the media, not reading it.
today people want to record more than 30 years ago.
even 30 years ago with VHS, the success was based on the fact that you can record TV on a 180min VHS cheap VHS tape, not by the fact you can see a movie.
all read only media were a failure at early stage (except CD , because it started a really new era in audio). and as soon the mp3 started, the CD was dying (people do care for size before quality).

look at the success of Divx, how many people are just happy to look at movies that can fit a 700mb CD-R. and look at DVD, how many commercial DVD are really using the full capacity of DVD. most of them are encoded a 5Mb/s sec to fit a single layer, or a dual layer at best when many features are present.

money, man, money...
why mess anyway with any of the new format to see what you already got on cheap DVD with a nice quality.

Right, for any application where money is the primary concern you can just make a standard DVD for a few cents, or encode to one of the compressed HD formats on the same cheap disc and play that on a computer. There simply isn't a need for this new format and it has a type of complexity which is inherently problematic. Good luck to them recruiting "major studios."

Yeah and we all know how picky dual layer DVD discs are. Can you imagine what would happen to a multi layer disc with even the smallest scratch? How well is this format going to hold up over time?

What is up with the name too? NME = Enemy

This format would have had a chance a year or two ago but not now. If consumers walked into a Store they are going to look at Toshiba or SONY as brandnames and not NME which nobody has ever heard of before. The same arguments that go against HD-DVD for not having more studio or hardware company support will really go against this format. The format really isn't all that much cheaper then HD-DVD anymore and a lot of people have already bought into HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. None of those people are going to jump on some wannabe format.

Yeah and we all know how picky dual layer DVD discs are. Can you imagine what would happen to a multi layer disc with even the smallest scratch? How well is this format going to hold up over time?...

Obviously, they are using different technology for multilayer ability that will also translate to BlueRay in the future. It's forseeable that BlueRay will need multilayers for 1080p source material.

The VMD bit rate blows away the standard DVD --- DVD is 9.8 Mbs as compared to VMD's 45Mbs.


This format would have had a chance a year or two ago but not now. If consumers walked into a Store they are going to look at Toshiba or SONY as brandnames and not NME which nobody has ever heard of before. The same arguments that go against HD-DVD for not having more studio or hardware company support will really go against this format. The format really isn't all that much cheaper then HD-DVD anymore and a lot of people have already bought into HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. None of those people are going to jump on some wannabe format.

Like the article says, 66% of people surveyed are still waiting to make a purchase decision. When consumers walk into a store they will look at the price...and most will scratch their head and walk out empty handed.

Actually, the overall costs between Red Laser technology and BlueRay are dramatic. What does it cost to Author a BlueRay title...50 grand? The smaller independents films will naturally gravitate towards a more affordable format.

How was NME able to beat the other two formats in releasing Peter Jackson's "Lord of the Rings" trilogy? Affordability and a streamlined process built on existing technology.

The Nintendo vs Playstation & Xbox is an interesting analogy.

Obviously, they are using different technology for multilayer ability that will also translate to BlueRay in the future.

Multi-layer discs are inherently problematic and take more work to set up, which is one of the biggest problems with this format. Blu-ray won't need this many layers for normal purposes.

It's forseeable that BlueRay will need multilayers for 1080p source material.

Blu-ray already has dual-layer discs available with 50 GB capacity, and even the single-layer discs can hold several hours of HD content in VC1 format.

When consumers walk into a store they will look at the price...and most will scratch their head and walk out empty handed.

Sales figures indicate that roughly 2 million people in the US bought either Blu-ray or HD-DVD capable devices in the past year, with ~100,000 HD-DVD players sold last Friday alone. It's too late for a third format with this level of sales for the other too.

What does it cost to Author a BlueRay title...50 grand?

Unless you need some of the fancier menu features it's about $500 for a burner and another $500 or so for software, plus $50 for a few blank discs.

How was NME able to beat the other two formats in releasing Peter Jackson's "Lord of the Rings" trilogy?

Interesting, but how many people actually bought the trilogy in this format?

> "Unless you need some of the fancier menu features it's about $500 for a burner and another $500 or so for software, plus $50 for a few blank discs."

Don't forget AACS licensing for copy protection. http://www.aacsla.com/support/

hehe, an interesting result from a study shows that only 40% of PS3 owner are aware that their gamebox include a Blu-ray reader.

http://www.youtube.com/v/MFoyp71xw3w

I was hoping to say "Blu-Ray Strikes Back," but probably not. From IMDb (and yes, the money HD DVD gave to Paramount/DreamWorks helped):

'Is Sony Signaling End of War Over HD Video?
In the first hint that he may be reconsidering whether to continue the battle with Toshiba over high-definition video, Sony chief Howard Stringer said Wednesday that the format battle between the two companies has become "mostly a matter of prestige." In a speech in New York Thursday night, Stringer also suggested that the battle over Sony's Blu-ray system and Toshiba's HD DVD "doesn't mean as much as all that." At one time, he suggested, it might have been possible to unify the two formats, and if time travel were possible he would try to do that now. He decried the decision of Paramount/DreamWorks to sign an exclusive deal (worth a reported $150 million) to release films exclusively in the HD DVD format. "We were trying to win on the merits, which we were doing for a while, until Paramount changed sides," Stringer said.'

heath

Maybe we WILL see a compromise. I do think in the long run that would be best.

Mike

Beyond cost and infrastructure advantages, red-laser discs have a maximum data transfer rate of 40Mbps versus 36 Mbps for HD DVD and Blu-ray, which gives it the potential of sharper, more detailed pictures over the competing Blu-ray and HD DVD formats, the company said.

LOL - Like anybody can actually see that difference.

They don't even know what the data transfer rate for Blu-ray is.


40Mbps for movies
48Mbps for movie + audio
Higher yet for data

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc

...Unless you need some of the fancier menu features it's about $500 for a burner and another $500 or so for software, plus $50 for a few blank discs...


Obviously, I was referring to the cost to a major movie production studio to author a feature film...not some home or garage operation. It's my understanding that some of the Blue ray authoring software excedes the $200,000. price tag.

While a blue laser solves the capacity problem, it comes with its own (train load) of baggage, including a confusing and costly format war between technology titans Sony and Toshiba and their respective allies. Blue laser has also been fraught with manufacturing delays (primarily blue-laser diode production), multiple cracks in its repressive AACS encryption scheme and cost issues driven by expensive authoring tools that reach up to $50K per film, ballooning the final disc cost to consumers.

http://displaydaily.com/2007/09/17/red-laser-hd-capacity-discs-brings-new-life-to-dvds/

Obviously, I was referring to the cost to a major movie production studio to author a feature film...not some home or garage operation. It's my understanding that some of the Blue ray authoring software excedes the $200,000. price tag.

Perhaps, but that's not particularly relevant to most of us. What is relevant is that anyone can make a Blu-ray disc today with a modest initial investment and market that to millions of people buying Blu-ray capable devices. Or you can pay a few hundred dollars to have an HD-DVD title authored and distributed by the company Microsoft is backing to help get that format off the ground. The odds of a third format catching on with consumers and being supported by standard disc authoring programs is slim at best.

Well, to update the release of the product...

HD VMD players finally began to ship after 3 years of development. I believe they became available to the US market just after Christmas (Dec 27) through the PCrush distributor.

10,000 units ordered by the US distributor and 10,000 units ordered by the central Europe distributor.

http://www.nmeinc.com/production.aspx

Now, I'm waiting to read an actual review of the player.

_______________________________________
Notes from the interview w/ the CEO: http://www.wallst.net/superstocks/superstocks_profile.asp?ticker=NMEN&id=4216&play=yes

Initial version of HD VMD will be at the 25 gig range.

6 Month target:

1) Mass adoption of the HD VMD format
2) PC Market / release a software & VMD Drive (player) for PC's

9 Month target:

1) Release Recordable VMD & authoring software / target industrial archiving

12 month target:

1) VMD Blue ray (100 gigs)
2) VMD used in GAME machine industry

My lovely bride wandered into my office as I was reading this thread and asked what I was up to. I pointed to the thread and one of the posted articles about VMD. Her exact words: "Not ANOTHER One! We've already got TWO! We're already repeating the Betamax war! We don't need ANOTHER format!" Then she huffed and stomped out of my office.

And she only knows enough technology to synch her iPod and install the occasional video game....

ciao,
Matt

And she only knows enough technology to synch her iPod and install the occasional video game...

Very funny! But sadly she is still technically ahead of me!

Mike

Well, to further update the HD VMD format... It's not dead yet.

Still haven't read a full review of the product.

But, actual 1080p movie content is now available for purchase in the new HD VMD format.

http://nmestore.com/index.php?osCsid=0bcde78e666043f68263fae70354844e&cPath=2

Some of the movies are not available till February 7th. Not exactly a plethera of choices...but it's a start.

Cost per movie: $17.49. I'm not sure how that compares to the other two HD formats.

They will be showing off the replication line on the 22nd of January. I'm not sure what that means in relation to the industry.

http://www.nmeinc.com/download/nme-vmd-production-line.zip (PDF zip file of replication line)

Orginal blank DVD-R's were $50 when they first came out. They are sub $1 now. Paramount just dumped HD DVD. There is no reason why Blu-Ray DVD media prices will not follow the same curve once production quanties ramp up, at least now all the stupid fighting over formats will cease and we can all gain the benefits of a single, high volume format.

Cost per movie: $17.49. I'm not sure how that compares to the other two HD formats.

Blu-ray and HD DVDs are selling on Amazon.com for $15.95 and up, with most being just under $20. For a competing HD format with unlikely long-term potential, saving $2.50 per movie doesn't sound like a very good deal.

Well, to further update the HD VMD format... It's not dead yet.


Yes it is. It just doesn't know it yet.

Yes it is. It just doesn't know it yet.


".... He's dead Jim"

Blu-ray and HD DVDs are selling on Amazon.com for $15.95 and up, with most being just under $20. For a competing HD format with unlikely long-term potential, saving $2.50 per movie doesn't sound like a very good deal.

I agree with you there-- if those movies were available in the US on Blu-Ray/HD DVD.

If this format took off in Asia, and had many foreign films not available in the US, it would be a decent investment of $199 for the player.

I already see a couple films on this rogue HD format not available anywhere else in HD at the moment. Luc Besson's "Angel-A" for example and "Pulp Fiction".

Interesting stuff.

If this format took off in Asia, and had many foreign films not available in the US, it would be a decent investment of $199 for the player.

Perhaps, but China has their own HD format for which they'll presumably be flooding the market with cheap players, leaving little room for other options in Asia. As far as movies not available on Blu-ray or HD-DVD are concerned, I'd sooner buy a widescreen SD copy I'll know I can play anywhere. Sorry to be a wet blanket about this, but I don't see much hope for the VMD format.

".... He's dead Jim"

Still kickin'...

Today NME Signs Exclusive Worldwide Deal for Classic and Award-Winning Film and TV Titles

For the First Time on HD, Now Available on NME's HD Bundle Box, Feature Length Movies, including Rudyard Kipling's 'The Jungle Book,' 'Sudden Death,' 'Instant Love,' 'Wilma' and Many More.

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/prnewswire/LAW04309012008-1.htm

...This deal represents a deeper partnership that will expand to include SFM's library releasing through NME's HD VMD format throughout 2008 - solidifying NME's position as a low-cost HD alternative.

...Other movie titles being considered for release by SFM through NME's HD VMD Bundle Box include: Academy Award-Winning "The Hellstrom Chronicle," "Murph the Surph," Monkees of Bandapur" and "Get Rollin.'" The two companies plan to follow-up these releases with a HD VMD Bundle Box of classic television shows constituting of "Real McCoys," "Make Room for Daddy," "Adventures of Jim Bowie," and many others.

hmmm... $200+ for a player and mostly stuff I can pick up for around $5 on DVD... not seeing the attraction. Not to mention what quality of original footage are we dealing with here - HD is going to look like poop if the original content is old stock not digitally remastered if I had to guess...


Even with major release support HD-DVD looks like a goner, I wouldn't put much stock in a latecomer to the party that I'd imagine most people have never even heard of, with titles many people haven't heard of either.

BD should reach critical mass if the "war" is over, and people start committing - prices will drop, and squeezing out a bit player by dropping BD players by $100 would be nothing - it'll happen naturally if competition steps up on a single format to deliver compatible players.

Well, at least now we know what kind of life-support this format is on.

To me it is funny having read any number of posts, not all here, about how the release of this or that movie on format Blu-ray or HD-DVD was going to put it over the top and crush the opposition. And it didn't happen. People kept right on enjoying regular old DVD.

Funny thing about DVD. It sets a reasonably high level of performance for anything else to exceed. I haven't yet played a DVD where I thought Boy, the quality just stinks. Instead it is generally along the lines of what an improvement over tape, VHS or Beta (my SL-HF750 still works) this is.

And new movies keep getting released and if you were either to cheap to see it in the theater, or really, really liked it, you can buy it on DVD ~six months after release or it stops playing in theaters. And if it really bombed, even sooner as the producer is now desperate to recoup his investment.

I went to the SFM website and went to their index page for what their offerings are. Granted it's just a snapshot, but hey, this is where they are putting their best foot forward.

http://www.sfment.com/dev/programs/grid/

Am I missing something folks, or is there almost nothing less than 30 years old here? Sure there is a TON of good stuff from the Dark Ages (pre-computer age), but do you think that's really going to pull in the under 30 crowd whose electronics buying habits tend to drive this market?

Call me Seriously Unconvinced that this stands a chance without current movie offerings. Or Damn Ignorant. I can take it.

Meanwhile, BluRay & HD-DVD have been fighting it out via not just the Internet, which is where you have to go for HD-VMD at present, but in the Big Box stores from coast to shining coast. I am willing to bet that ALL the Big Boxes are sick and tired of the fight as it slows the emergence of what will be THE STANDARD. And once they have that, they can get on to moving massive numbers of movie titles, players, and burners. And until then nobodys making much money because the volumes aren't big enough.

My opinion. Consider what you paid for it.

priceless...

it may not be dead, but I think we've got the obituary written...

hmmm... $200+ for a player ...

What do mean $200+ ...? It's listed as $198.65 w/ free ground shipping.

Some early purchase reviews are starting to come in...looks like they are out of stock till the 15th.

http://www.pcrush.com/prodspec.asp?itemno=128462&bsrc=sli

They are even throwing in two free movies...

All orders for HD VMD players in January will come with two complementary titles, "Mother Ghost" starring James Franco and cult hit "Cutting Room."

http://www.nmeinc.com/press_release.aspx

Only mostly dead.

If I had a warehouse full of HD players right now, I would be having a big sale too.

What do mean $200+ ...? It's listed as $198.65 w/ free ground shipping.

Some early purchase reviews are starting to come in...looks like they are out of stock till the 15th.

http://www.pcrush.com/prodspec.asp?itemno=128462&bsrc=sli

They are even throwing in two free movies...

All orders for HD VMD players in January will come with two complementary titles, "Mother Ghost" starring James Franco and cult hit "Cutting Room."

http://www.nmeinc.com/press_release.aspx

Only mostly dead.

Throw in the Britney Spears Box set on "Dysfunctional Living" and I'm there....

UMM... it's dead Jim...

I guess rounding up a buck thirty five and calling it 200 for the base model (they had another that is MORE THAN $200, if you missed it...) is too much to grab onto... I did miss the free shipping, so OK, you win that point.

I don't think the buck and change is going to be any different than BluRay selling for $299 (under 300!!!!). And BluRay mfrs are throwing in 5 current flicks or more from what I've seen in the big box adverts... things people might buy anyway, not obscure titles. That's about the same for the player after you deduct the price of the titles, probably less.


It's great they are direct marketing over the web, but to gain mindshare they will need to be on the shelf and have CURRENT titles available, or they are DOA.

Players without content (and CONTENT CREATION since this IS a video forum and I think we'd all love to see the burner and blank disks - where are they?? Now THAT would catch my eye!!!) are nothing but a novelty item.

I originally bought into DVD (quite late actually) when I saw how great a new movie looked on DVD vs. VHS - and it was around $100 to get a GOOD player. I know HD is higher res, but I don't see as huge an improvement over DVD, probably need my eyes checked again or something - yes, it's better, but for most viewing, it's not enough to crack my wallet. ESPECIALLY while format wars are ongoing! DVD is fine and cheap, good enough!


Don't know who is going to "bet" on a 3rd tier supplier who may or not be around 6 months from now with content from the 70s and 80s... Even if they GAVE the player away, I don't see it happening.... but more power to them, maybe it will speed the affordability of BluRay as it moves to crush any competition?

Don't know who is going to "bet" on a 3rd tier supplier who may or not be around 6 months from now with content from the 70s and 80s... Even if they GAVE the player away, I don't see it happening.... but more power to them, maybe it will speed the affordability of BluRay as it moves to crush any competition?

If HD-DVD folds, I would expect the price of BluRay drives to drop.

Why? Three reasons actually.
1. Walk through the AV section of BestBuy. Count the number of BluRay player vendors. This really is much more than a Sony only show. So the competition is there.

2. My understanding from the computer hardware end of things is that getting volume production of Blue lasers has been a royal pain in the backside, but those volumes have nonetheless been ramping up. With HD-DVD out of the picture, by default the entire production goes to BluRay vs. a bidding war between BluRay & HD-DVD.

3. With HD-DVD out of the picture, BluRay becomes THE STANDARD and so volumes will finally rapidly ramp up with attendant price drops, precisely because those BluRay vendors finally have a real market to compete for a piece of.

I forgot a fourth reason:
4. With HD-DVD out of the picture, your resistance, and everyone elses, to buy into BluRay will drop dramatically.

Bill -
You're right on with reason #4, I'm "ready" when the price is there and I don't have to worry about whether I bet on the wrong horse.

I've been shooting HD for two years now (got an HC1 early on, never looked back). I get great quality on an SD DVD, but one of these days I'd like to do things HD end to end. If I know that the end viewer is going to have a compatible player, you bet I'll invest in a burner, and a player for myself... but I don't want a compatibility nightmare - getting reliable SD DVD's was enough of that with + and - and so many incompatible burning programs.

Content is key, with reliable compatibility in a burnable media being right up there... prices will come down soon enough, and once it's clear where to commit resources, there should be plenty of competition!

Bill -
You're right on with reason #4, I'm "ready" when the price is there and I don't have to worry about whether I bet on the wrong horse.

As much as people complain about price, I personally believe the greater consideration is the betting on a wrong horse.

Especially for Content Creators where the justification of making money rules vs. the common Joe where it's a I want it but don't actually need it.