Hey everyone,

anyone who has followed any of my threads knows I'm a big proponent of "tapeless" storage ala hard drive type storage.

The Firestore although great for it's purpose doesn't seem ideally suited for true run and gun videotaping without tapes (the new Canon's wont work w/o a tape inserted)..what I was hoping for was a device that could be firewired right through the fw port and capture clips on the go without wires or extra batts etc....

The Quickstream Dv seems to be the solution- it's the size of a pack of cigarettes, self-powered and can be mounted underneateh via tripod socket or above mounted to a hot shoe...nothing more than a single small wire needs to be fed into the dv camcorder- perfect solution for going totally tapeless. Problem is- this product has been annouced quite some time ago yet hasn't materialized in the open market just yet- several calls to different Mac stores that advertise this device all claim it's coming soon but have no concrete ETA...

...does anyone have any inside news about this device by MCE Tech?
I know camcorders will eventually all go tapeless i the future sometime- and running tapes to capture 10 minutes of useable footage is starting to wear on me....we need this Quickstream DV and NOW.....

someone tell me they know something!!!!

Thanks guys!

It sounds like it would be sweet- even to a PC person. However, I would still feel safer having tape in the cam...just in case. For short amounts of footage, I guess it would be ok, but you need to have masters.

I heard that the camera can't control stop and start recording. The device is being reworked and may or may not see the light of day. The price was right, but the device was pretty primitive.. It also recorded a RAW DV that needed to be rendered before your NLE could use it. This doesn't save much time because of the rendering.

Keith,

I'm sure allot of people would agree having a master or backup of important footage is great- but there's no denying a mass market for people exisit who would rather shoot digitally onto a HD and archive to DVD-R or even back out to tape if desired.... what I am finding is I shoot entire 60 min tapes for around 10 min or so of actual useable video to be included in any project- for myself a tapeless solution would be a God-send....I'd sell the GL2 in a second (even tho I love the thing) for any new 3CCD camera that incorporates a tapeless HD media storage system that would allow the user to shoot onto laptop HD's....with 80GB drives around that's quite a bit more than 60 minute tapes can hold- over 6 hours of tapeless storage- now that's what I am talking about!

Imagine going home and attaching a fw cable to your camcorder and having it mount as a HD on your desktop (Mac or PC) and having raw uncompressed DV clips ready to edit, archive and transfer to your computer in any way data can be saved....I think the technology is ready now and ready to be implemented- the 1st one to do so will have my money right away!

Not saying that tapes are bad but for my purposes and those of others- tape storage seems out of place in the 2003+ years with all digital devices- many of us are shooting digital for the purpose of editing in our NLE systems and having to capture and purchase tapes seems out of place- I shoot digital cameras because they don't use film- if they did I wouldn't shoot a SLR. Canon has $1500 of mine because of buying an EOS 10D because there are no consumeable films to use- the sooner Canon does the same to the 3CCD cams the better!

Just my opinion- for whatever its worth! (probably not much anyway)

Jeff, you're probably right- as the few shops I've called say no units have arrived and no confirmation as to ETA's for the product.

I do know the Firestore has issues with newer Canon cams as to starting and stopping of recording via the "rec" button..the older Canon cams worked perfectly but for some reason the newer uits aren't recording via the "rec" button, not to mention you need actual tapes inserted- which sorta defeats the "tapeless" solution aspect in my eyes.

I'll just keep on the lookout- hopefully someone will find a workaround to this problem.....or it could be the camcorder co's are already at work on tapeless camcorders and the small DV device co's may have abandoned product developement.

I'll just keep my fingers crossed and order more tapes (yuck)

Steve- A hard drive is a hard drive. I had a hard disk recorder for capturing audio. Worked great... unless the power suddenly went out? Anything that wasn't saved went to... wherever lost bits of memory go...

We have all lost something important on the computor, because we didn't save it. If you are a Proffessional using a camera, how would you explain "No footage"?

I, for one, can't afford the cost of recording everything to hard disk. It is not a good solution for long-term retention.

That's the edge tape currently has. I've got 25-year-old cassette tapes that still play fine. Tape remains the prefered archival medium in IT circles.

If, however, there was an optical disc capable of holding no less than one hour of raw (AVI) footage, that would provide a suitable medium for long-term retention. The blue laser devices would fall in the two hour category generally speaking, with projections for future capacities in the 100GB = 7 hours range.

Then, and only then, would I be willing to have a hard disk in the camcorder. I'd shoot, stream off the cam to the PC's hard disk (or just mount the cam's disk), and then burn the original footage to optical discs. That would free up the cam's hard disk. It would also allow long-term retention of the footage and high-speed access to it on demand, without cluttering up the PC's operating hard disks with archival footage.

Tape is a very cost effective medium. Comparisons:
Tape (13GB) -- $4, $/GB = $0.31.
DVD+/-RW (4.7GB) -- $4, $/GB = $0.85
Disk (40GB IBM TravelStar 5400RPM) -- $127, $/GB = $3.18
Flash (1GB SanDisk) -- $227, $/GB = $227.
MicroDrive (1GB IBM, 3600RPM) -- $184, $/GB = $184

Note: The MicroDrive is probably not fast enough for video. 5400RPM notebook drives are marginal.

One cannot discount the possibility of cams with optical recording (I know they exist now, but they capture MPEG, not DV). If there really was a 100GB, CD form factor optical disc, then the 3" form factor disc would hold 26GB equivalent to two hours of raw video.

That would probably put a stake in tape's heart. Until then, tape has attractive and compelling attributes.

Keith,

I'm not sure I am following your reasoning (questioning)...

but if future camcorders had internal HD's that captured video and the batts were charged- you'd be in the same boat as any professional today with a camcorder that use tape and batteries- and as far as I know- all camcorders use batteries...as long as they are charged you'd pretty much have the video that was shot......the only negative would be HD failures- but seeing as to how hundreds of thousands of laptops are chugging away- laptop HD's would seem a safe bet.

As for me- i'm still waiting for the Quickstream DV to materialize...unless a tapeless pure digital camcorder comes out (3CCD of course)

All I was trying to say, is shit happens. If the battery on my cam dies, I just replace the battery and plow on. If a HD loses power, it loses ALL UNSAVED info. I have lost audio on my HD recorder, due to UNPLANNED power loss. And in this world, where Muphy's Laws rule supreme, I would just feel safer with a back up, and not solely on the HD. That's it.

I would still love to get my hands on something like this. It would be perfect for when something runs 75 minutes, and my tape is only 63...

Keith,

I gotcha.

As for wanting to get your hands on something like this- yeah me tooooo!

..something's telling me this may never materialize.....but who knows?

MCE apparently began shipping this gadget this week. Read more here (http://www.mcetech.com/quickstreamdv.html).

Ken- thanks a million- I've been dying for this product to come out.....the 180 minute model is in my sights- thanks again!

Great sounding product, but hideously expensive. The 90-min model costs $30 per GB and the 360-min model just under $13/GB.

Everyday IDE hard drives are $0.50 per GB. Expensive laptop hard drives are $6/GB.

So the only possible tradeoff is time. How long does it take to transfer the contents of the 90-min drive to the hard disk of an NLE station?

Will

This product does interest me, even though I'm not keenly interested in direct-to-disk units. But indeed, Will, it's an expensive "hard disk" if you look at it purely from that viewpoint. (Although the Sony units are far, far more expensive and deliver less value.) The value proposition of all of these devices is nearly exclusively that of time savings, whether translated into labor costs or into turn-around competitiveness.

There are some other very important advantages here.

1. No need to purchase a mini-dv deck for your NLE computer system. Last time I checked one of the cheaper JVC mini-dv decks cost around $800.00 unless you use a cheap dv camera about $350.00 instead. A Panasonic mini-dv deck is over $1,000.00

2. Supposedly no problem with dropped frames on this device.

3. Finally, an end to dv camera head and tape alignment issues. My GL1 has been in the shop 2 times already costing me over $200.00

If this proves to be a quality product and performs as advertized, then at least for me it is well worth the price.

Regards,

Mark Williams

#1 is a good point I hadn't thought of. I have been planning to buy a second cam, like one of the Canon ZRs, to spare the transport on the GL2. Maybe that money is better spent in this manner.

Another thing to think about. Why not record both on tape and the quickstream drive if one is concerned about possible hard drive and tape drop out problems. Nice insurance if something goes wrong.

Keep the tape as raw archive material, download the files off the quickstream drive onto your NLE, delete the files off the quickstream drive when done and your ready to go film again.

Once this thing gets is out on the market for a while the price will probably drop some, making it more attractive. I will be really interested to hear some user reports.

Regards,

Mark Williams

Mark,

the workflow you've described is exactly how most users use D-T-D (direct to disk) hardware.........BUT------

...there are people such as myself who spend long periods of time taping something for mere seconds of useable footage- for us, the idea of going tapeless is the future.....for example....

....say you are a nature videographer and are taping an eagle ready to fly off his/her nest to begin fishing......you'd be left stuck rolling video for perhaps hours for the moment the eagle lifts off and catches a fish- which may be a total of a minute of useable video- yet you sat there letting tape roll for an hour to catch that minute of "good" footage......you can see a tapeless format here would be ideal- and for this I'll buy a Quickstream DV (180 min) right after Christmas!!

Steve,

When you get the drive please keep us posted on its performance. I agree with you. This type capture medium is the future. I can't wait to no longer be disappointed by head and tape failures. A quick search of these forums reveals this is a much bigger problem than some of us would like to admit.



Regards,

Mark

<<<-- Originally posted by Mark Williams When you get the drive please keep us posted on its performance. -->>>

Translation: Let us know how it goes out there, General Custer. <g>

Seriously, though, let's keep this thread alive as some of us begin to dabble with this Quickstream.

I am changing the title of this thread to more accurately reflect the product's existence.

Here is a link over to the DVX user's forum. I suspect there might be some updated information there. Also there is some discount information.

http://www.dvxuser.com/cgi-bin/DVX/YaBB.cgi?board=Links;action=display;num=1071617666


Regards,

Mark

I met with the Quickstream folks (not for the first time) at DV Expo West last week, and we're going to have a review online here at DV Info Net shortly.

Chris- your review of the firestore was dead on- I really do hoep you get a Quickstream DV in- inquiring minds want to know!

Hey Steve Nunez,

Look over at http://www.dvxuser.com/cgi-bin/DVX/YaBB.cgi?board=Links;action=display;num=1071617666;start=25

Jarrad has a quickstream mounted on his DVX100. Info. on the unit's use should be posted soon.

Regards,

Mark

For those interested a review of the quickstream is at

http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/quickstreamDV/

Issues for me are:

- No Matrox AVI file support (will have to convert files).
- Only Mac file management software at this time.

Otherwise it looks like a good first start. Hopefully improvements will follow.

Regards,

Mark Williams

Sweet thanks for the heads up Mark.

If anyone gets there hands on one for use with Canon cameras i'd like to hear there stories (specifically the Xi/MVX3i). :) Also if anyone could verify this quiery... in the review its said that its FAT32 file system for compatibility reasons across platforms. If you're only using it under a PC system, could you just format it to NTFS and bypass the 2gig file size limit?

Cheers.

I don't think you'll be able to do that because the firmware on
the drive will probably not support NTFS (quite difficult to implement
comparing to FAT).

Also they didn't test how long the device would run when fully
charged?

The Quickstream DV is now shipping and available. We will be showing this product at CES in Las Vegas. For more information please email me at jason@mcetech.com.

Happy New Year,
Jason Opat
MCE Technologie, LLC
www.mcetech.com
866-298-5700