I was wondering if anyone could give some advice about a good stabilizer for my GL2. I am going to use if for filming the people ariving at a wedding, or event. I need somthing to give an almost perfect shot while walking, moving up stairs, ext. I would spend up to $1500-2000, but any advice on this topic is appreciated.




John DeLuca

Your best bet would be a steadicam/glidecam, but them cost much more then $1500. Unless you want to take on the task of building one yourself, you will be best off with something like the Glidecam 2000 PRO, it goes for around $380, i'm pretty sure.

http://www.glidecam.com/2000pro.html

Hi John,
I'll second Alex's recommendation for the Glidecam 2000 with your GL2. I have one and think it's a very good value, and performer, for a relatively modest cost.

A couple of added suggestions if you decide to go this way.
1. Skip the "Body Pod" option for the 2000. The Body Pod is really just a glorified parade flag holder with an 's' tube. While it does put the rig's load on your hips it also transmits a great deal of footfall vibration straight to the camera. The only way to effectively run the 2000 is handheld.

2. Skip the monitor option. The GL2's lcd panel will be fine, particularly if you outfit it with a lightweight hood, such as the ones available from Petrol or Hoodman.

3. Get the arm brace. It's an essential accessory. It makes the 2000 much more comfortable to use by transferring the load of the rig to larger muscle groups in your upper arm.

4. Don't underestimate the amount of practice required to get professional results. Practicing achieving proper balance will, in itself, require a significant amount of time. So don't think that you can get the 2000 on the Wednesday before a weekend wedding and get good results. Give yourself -weeks- of practice time. This does not reflect a weakness of the Glidecam, but rather the complexity and skill required to master any camera stabilizer.

Let us know what you select!

Alex, and Ken thankyou so much. The Glidecam 2000 PRO is exaclly what I need. My only question is, will my arms get tired, and if so, how long can you hold it without problems. Would hand shake/tremors be gone, or is there a limit to how far you can go. My first wedding is in a few weeks! I would get paid if it is good footage, or its free if its bad. Live and learn. Thanks again



John DeLuca

I haven't used it before, but I do have a much cheaper home build version, well sort of. Sometimes I carry around a counter weight which I strap on to the bottom of my tripod, if I need to do any smooth shots -- or atleast as smooth as possible. It really takes practice, no matter if its a counterbalanced tripod, that glidecam 2000pro, or a real steadicam... Sure it will wear you out after a while, it depends how in shape you are...

You should be fine. I've seen some wedding videos where the people have been paid a lot, and it's nothing more then all stationary tripod shots, and edited terribly. As long as you get good audio and decent shots, and you can edit good, it will be a good video.

The Glidecam (and all similar stabilizers) can remove out the typical effects of handheld camera; jitter, shake, footsteps in walking shots. With an inexperienced operator at the helm, it can also result in other kinds of unwanted motion such as rolling horizons and erratic framing. This is absolutely not to discourage anyone from buying or using a stabilizer but to echo Ken's wise words: practice is imperative, it's a whole new skill and requires time and patience to get the basics down. In the process, you will also increase your stamina so that your shooting time can improve.

My advice is to get the unit as soon as possible, and set time aside to practice with it and review your work. If you apply yourself, you can produce travelling shots that are virtually as good as what you see on TV or in the movies--there really isn't a limit on what is possible.

I'm affraid I can't support Alex's thoughts--poorly operated stabilizer footage can be worse than a standard locked off tripod shot. Especially when the heads are chopped off. It's more challenging to control a gimbal-based system like the Glidecam than a weighted tripod/monopod, but it will ultimately net better results.

I second for the glidecam. Get it as soon as you can. Read Ken's tips again! After you do ALL the points, be obsessed with the 4th:
"Give yourself -weeks- of practice time" :-)

Thanks for all the help, its been more than helpfull. The only question after my research, Ive come up with a couple choices. The Glide cam with a forearm brace, or a steadicam jr/jrm also with somekind of similar brace. Has anyone compaired the two? Every time I ask about it anywhere else, I get the feeling people are not being honest with me in order to make a sale. If anyone can help, it would mean alot to me.


Thanks again,
John DeLuca

The JR doesn't have a forearm brace. Maybe if you make it yourself. But is somehow easier on your arm, since the weight of the system is DIRECTLY over the fist, and not in front (pulling your forearm forward).
The JR has some more inertia on pan axis, which is good, and it can also fold to form a shoulder support! The glide can seat on straight on the table.
I don't know... I think I like the JR more. We had a discussion on this JR vs. glidecam, here:
http://pub173.ezboard.com/fhomebuiltstabilizersfrm9.showMessage?topicID=50.topic

John,
Ditto Cosmin's remarks. I, too, was torn between the two. The physics of the JR is slightly different than the GC 2000, with the gimbal being directly over your hand. I don't know if this is better or worse, probably neither.

In my case, Tiffen had undergone some financial problems (a bankruptcy according to Charles) and their manufacturing had slowed, leaving the retail chains empty. So the JR wasn't available for many months. The 2000 was the only practical choice for me. Personally, now that I've used it, I'm glad I went with the 2000, mainly due to the arm brace option. The GL2 + counter-weights + rig gets darn heavy and that arm brace makes a big difference. Without a brace your wrist and forearm will be quivering in a short time. I don't know of any such aid for the JR.

If you could only go to a store and try both of them... for a couple of weeks! :)

there is also the DV Steadicam at twice the price of a JR, question is -- is it twice as good - it certainly looks cool

That DV steady cam is slick looking. Do they make an arm brace for it? Would you even need one? Could you maybe make one, that would serve its purpose? Better start doing more hammer/reverse curls at the gym.....lol.


All the best,

John DeLuca

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with both Charles and Ken. I think if you buy the Glidecam for the wedding, in about two or three trips up the stairs you will be finished. And even that footage may be junk.

I would ask someone who has what they consider to be good footage done with the Glidecam 2000 to post it for our inspection. Not the "running down the hall" stuff, or "walking down the street." But footage with other people in the shot, where composition counts, and the shot moves with them at their speed. If you could show me a dialogue scene, I would be really impressed.

Cosmin has the right idea: rent before you buy.

Here is a brief review I wrote awhile back. I have seen nothing so far to make me change my mind, but maybe someone out there....

I rented the Glidecam for a weekend and these are my personal observations. Your mileage may vary.

Using the Glidecam with only its little "stem" holder device is damn near impossible. Try this experiment: take a briefcase and load it with weight till it tops our at about 12 pounds. Now, hold the briefcase with your elbow bent so it is perpendicular to the ground. How does that feel? How long can you hold your wrist in that position? Now try walking with the briefcase so that you can control where its pointing. Having fun yet? That's the same fun you will have with the Glidecam. You will be able to do very brief, non-repeatable shots. Certainly, you would not want to try to shoot a dialogue scene this way. Maybe brief snatches for a music video.

Using their spring arm is somewhat better, but definitely not in the same league as a true Steadicam. Of course, it is much less expensive than the Steadicam, and you get what you pay for. It is a very difficult unit to balance properly and the support system for the arm is cheezy, IMHO.

After a couple hours, I put the whole thing back in the box. Now, this is not to say that if you purchase the unit with the arm, and are willing to commit to an extended learning period, that you would not be able to perform some movie quality shots. Maybe. The ideal situation would be to rent before you buy and see if you are willing to go through the learning curve. But if you must buy, please have a return policy locked in and pay with a credit card, such as Amex.
Good luck

Even if John could make the Glidecam work for the wedding, I don't know that would be the best use of it. There are many ways to shoot the arrivals, including tripod, hand held shoulder brace, and yes, even a jib, that would pay off in better coverage than the Glidecam. The Glidecam forces you to stay wide, but with a shoulder brace you can go in for tighter shots of smiling faces and such. Exotic devices like Glidecams should not be your primary source of coverage, but be used on a second camera for the "icing on the cake," so to speak, in a situation like this. IMHO.

Wayne Orr, SOC

Sorry to hear of your frustration with the Glidecam 2000, Wayne. It's certainly understandable, as it's a very different way to shoot. After practicing with it for a while I'm inclined to liken it to a whole-body movement control excercise such as T'ai Chi. Achieving very good, consistent and repeatable results with the GC 2000 and lightweight cameras (GL2, PD150, VX2000, et.al.) is very possible but only through total concentration and deliberate control of nearly every muscle in your body. That arm brace really does alleviate a significant amount of the discomfort to which you referred in your post.

Certainly, one has to judge whether or not the effort is worthwhile for the situation. Personally, I think motion stabilizers achieve best results in controlled scenes where movement is carefully blocked and the camera's motion is choreographed, and rehearsed, for a very specific objective. In the case of John's proposition, a wedding, I'm inclined to agree that he would probably achieve better results with more conventional camera handling techniques particularly if he is not adept with a stabilizer. Slightly shakey, but deliberate and well framed, shots are going to be preferable to the wobbly, sea-sickness results that inept stabilizer operation will produce. In a setting as chaotic as most weddings tend to be, even a skilled operator might well have a hard time getting the goods with a stabilizer.

The thing to know and realize about hand held stabilizers like the GC 2000 and the like: you are supporting the weight of your camera plus at least 4-9 pounds of weight WITH YOUR WRIST.

I built my own stabilizer (the same basic priciples of the GC2000 and the like) and learned this VERY quickly.

I had a shot I wanted to do pulling back from a room and down a long corridor where there was no way I could lay down track and not have it seen. The stabilizer worked like a CHAMP ! I was extremely pleased with the effect and the smoothness of the shot.

My DP cursed me for 3 days every time his wrist and forearm hurt from the experience but it was worth it.

Go somewhere and try it out... YES, try the forearm brace but you still have to realize that you're holding it with one arm to get the smoothness you desire. ( I'm looking into how to build a forarm support for mine )

I learned fast that a stabilizer (not one in the sense of a Stedicam ) is fantastic for a lot of different kinds of shots and works fantastic with my XL1S--- but I had to pick and chose what I can and can't do with it by virtue of physical capability.

Having said all of the above you can build one for less then US$100.00 and spend the extra on building a dolly and track set-up or some other tool. If I can build a usable stabilizer setup, anyone can.

If you feel that you are going to need and going use a lot of stedi shots, consider going for a homebuilt full rig.

I know there is a posting here from Cosmin who is selling his full rig he built. It's pretty dang cheap for what you get and his demo shoots have been fantastic. I wish I had the money right now but this dang habit of eating and feeding my family gets in the way.........

Originally posted by Ken Tanaka : "Sorry to hear of your frustration with the Glidecam 2000, Wayne. It's certainly understandable, as it's a very different way to shoot. After practicing with it for a while I'm inclined to liken it to a whole-body movement control excercise such as T'ai Chi. Achieving very good, consistent and repeatable results with the GC 2000 and lightweight cameras (GL2, PD150, VX2000, et.al.) is very possible but only through total concentration and deliberate control of nearly every muscle in your body. That arm brace really does alleviate a significant amount of the discomfort to which you referred in your post."

You don't have to be sorry for me, Ken. I have operated a professional Steadicam, so I know what my capabilities are, and I didn't lose any money buying the Glidecam. But I am concerned for the young people who are anxious to imitate professional camera movement, and are being told in the Glidecam ads that this is indeed possible. Despite the grinning girls with the big hooters, I don't think this gear can turn out professional level work, and all the company wants is the customer's money. Then when someone complains about the gear, they are told they have not "properly set-up the equipment," or they "haven't devoted the necessary time" to learn to operate the gear effeciently. You can balance a small format camera on a Steadicam in a few minutes, and be operating it with a surprising amount of dexterity in a few more minutes. It will take much longer to become really skilled in its use, but you won't constantly be fighting to contol the unit.

Skip the Zen, Ken, how about those clips?

I figure the place I buy it from has a week to send it back for any reason, so why not get all three and weed them out( shoulder brace, GC2000 w spring arm, and dv steadicam). After getting a feel for them and seeing what they can do in real world no nosence shots, Ill send the other two back or maybe all, and save up for a real steadicam. Practice makes perfect. Thanks for all the badly needed help and direction.


John DeLuca

I should probably state for the record that my preferred device for handheld stabilizing is the Steadicam JR (own one of the earliest ones, paid it off in two jobs). The DV model, while sexy looking, reputedly suffered from serious design flaws and was discontinued a while back.

I'm being a bit generous about the Glidecam, as I find the fit and finish a bit lacking compared to the JR, but I have seen some very decent footage made with those machines so I can't discredit it, particulaly at the price point.

And now it's my turn to disagree with you, Wayne, on the following:

<<You can balance a small format camera on a Steadicam in a few minutes, and be operating it with a surprising amount of dexterity in a few more minutes.>>

It didn't take me all that long when I got mine, but then again the principles are the same as the big rigs I was already familiar with. For the Steadicam novice, I have heard complaints of HOURS spent trying to get the thing to balance for the first time. Although the documentation sold with the JR was excellent (and that video was pure gold, the interaction between Garrett Brown and the late Ted Churchill was classic), it's still a brain tickler for most.

Same applies for the operating--I'm pretty confident that it takes the average person plenty longer than a few minutes to turn in "dextrous" work.

We're probably saying the same thing, though Wayne. It's all subjective.

By the way, I see you worked on the live "Fail Safe" broadcast a while back? Do you recall my pal Dave Chameides who did Steadicam on that show?

Sorry, back on track here...John, I think you'll like the JR, even without the arm brace, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

I checked out the steadicam jr and have some quetions. Whats the diff between the light, and the regular? would I need the monotor? Would I need a brace of some kind, or could I make one to serve its purpose? Could I use extra audio add ons like a beach tek and senn mic, or would that add to much wieght to the rig. Seems like alot to consider when spending wisely. Better right the first time, then not being happy with the results. This is good stuff, I appreciate the time, and effort everyone has put in there posts, Im begining to think this is going to take some major practice no matter what I choose.


John DeLuca

Whoa, Charles. Mea culpa. I was referring to the Steadicam Mini, not the JR. I'm afraid I am no fan of the JR either, because it was not designed for cameras of a weight of the PD150/VX2K, and certainly, never for the Canon XL series. That was my bad about the confusion there. Again, apologizes to anyone who misread my remarks. And yes, the Steadicam Mini is very expensive to purchase, but a weekend rental will go for about $250.00, which isn't too bad. I took my PD150 over to Abel Cine awhile back, and their tech, Ian, had it mounted on the Mini in a bit over five minutes. I moved around their building for about fifteen minutes, and tried to imagine a total novice giving it a go, and I think if they have a video tutorial for it, a "virgin" would do some pretty good work with a little practice.

Yeah, David is a good guy, and excellent operator. I think he gets a rush doing the "live" productions (Along with the Emmy we won). He also did the live "ER" earlier. Its very exciting knowing you have one chance at it; no retakes. I had a shot set up near the end of a 70x lens where I was focused on one character, and Brian Dennehy steps into an extreme close-up profile shot and I rack to him. But at that focal length, if he misses his mark by a couple inches, or I miss mine, it's egg on the face time. Fortunately we both nailed it.

Speaking of Steadicams, I just ran into one of my buds, Ted Ashton, this past weekend on the "World Stunt Awards." Ted recently took delivery on his custom vest with the back connection, and is very happy. He said Larry McConky is saying the new vest will add ten years to his career. Is that good news or bad news? You going to get one?

"this dang habit of eating and feeding my family gets in the way"
That's OK Kevin, I understand.... :)
I've finish building a JR type steadicam. I used a big bearing ball for the gimbal. Not to good. The real steadicam JR has bearings, like a normal gimbal. I'll send some pics in a few days on homebuiltstabilizers.
In the JR type steadicam, because the handle is under the weight, you have an advantage as well as a problem. The advantage is that is easier to hold it over a longer period of time. The problem is that you'll transmit every step you take up to the camcorder. In the glidecam rig, because the weight is on a side, that will force your wrist to twist when you take a step, absorbing the shock. Something like that. Both setups needs allot of practice to obtain good results. They are harder to control than a big rig. My full rig almost draws me on its path! Is hard to carry around (about 25Kg ALL) but its definitely easier to control. Is like kipping a stick in equilibrium on a finger. With the JR/glidecam is like kipping a pencil in equilibrium.... Try it!

Wayne, thank you for siting the steadicam mini, although expensive, it is what I was looking for and I figure its better to do it right the first time, then be unhappy with the quality. Can you give some suggestions about use, or set up? What audio add ons do you use? and any other inside tips would help me out very much. It looks like its worth the money.


Thanks again,
John DeLuca

John, the best way to get audio into the camera on a Steadicam is obviously with a wireless system. You can velcro a receiver to your camera, and eliminate any cables, which is always to be desired.

As far as set-up, I have the Steadicam "user's tutorial" and I will be happy to make you a copy and post it to you, if you are really going to get into this. The tape is for a full sized Steadicam, but the principles are the same, so it should be very helpful. I don't know if there is a tape for the Mini, but you could ask about it where you get the gear.

Charles is the real Steadicam expert here, so hopefully we can get him in with some suggestions. He is on location now and may not have the time.

<<<-- Originally posted by Wayne Orr :

As far as set-up, I have the Steadicam "user's tutorial" and I will be happy to make you a copy and post it to you, if you are really going to get into this. The tape is for a full sized Steadicam, but the principles are the same, so it should be very helpful. I don't know if there is a tape for the Mini, but you could ask about it where you get the gear.
. -->>>

Oh! Oh! Me! I'm getting a V16 soon, *bats eyelashes*

Sometimes a girl can be too coy, Andrew. Is that a request, or are you just flirting?

Wayne:

After a year of waffling, I finally ordered the back-mounted vest you mentioned, the DSD (http://www.danielsauvedesigns.com/)--it's arriving in a couple of days. The health aspect of it is the entirely enticing aspect, otherwise I'm trying to avoid spending any more money on the Steadicam setup! For those interested, this is a support vest for the full-sized rigs that distributes the weight very differently than has been done before--instead of pulling from the front of the operator, it pushes from the back.

John, if you can afford the Mini, you will be very happy with it. It's a solid unit and will allow you to use significantly heavier cameras with greatly reduced fatigue than any of the handheld stabilizers, including the JR.

I don't play those casting couch games! :P So it'll be a video request (Would flirting help? lol)

charles, would u like to donate your old vest to me :)


zac

Charles

do you know what exactly what were the design flaws with the DV Steadicam??

the reason I ask is because I was contemplating getting a used one

I want to order the mini, can you guys suggest some add ons that are a must? I could pay off the difference with the wedding coming up using a tripod and 501 head(if its good that is). The steadicam looks like a great way for a local business to seperate itself from the competition(with lots of practice of corse). My brother has a year of experence with the photography side of it, and I feel the video, and steadicam would be an excellent add on. If you could post some steadicam info videos, that would be great, I am curious to know everything I can about it. Thanks again, you all have gone out of your way to give the best advice. I feel much more confident hearing it from the best, than trying to wing it like I always do.




Its our first year so its not the best yet, but heres the photography side of it, this next wedding will be my first with video. "One must stand and walk before, one can learn to fly"



www.delucaphoto.com




John DeLuca

John Jay:

I'm a little fuzzy on what I heard, it's been a couple years, but I think a lot of them went back to the factory with problems, and the design in general, while good-looking, didn't fly as well as the JR.

Thx Charles

Maybe it was the manufacturing cost too high over functional requirement

Cinema Products (the original manufacturer of the Steadicam) had a fair amount of quality control and customer service, and went out of business not long ago. Tiffen bought the Steadicam license and continue to manufacture the various rigs, although they too have experienced financial issues.

The DV was an attempt to update and streamline the extremely successful Steadicam JR but even those within Cinema Products admitted it was a dud. This is probably why the unit was not carried over into the Tiffen product line.

Incidentally I took delivery of my DSD vest today as described a few posts back--it's a beaut. Got put right to the test shooting a barroom scene with Bernie Mac and Angela Lansbury. After hours of flying the rig (Panavision XL, around 70 lbs), I probably felt half the fatigue I'm accustomed to. Nice!

That's super, Charles! I gues I'm going with a back mounted, too. But I'll build it myself! :)

Charles P, can you comment on how do you feel the forcess to your body? Maybe compared to a front mounted vest. How much of the weight do you think is on the hips and how much on the shoulders (maybe 70%-30%?)
Thanks!

Cosmin:

It's a little early to tell, because I (thankfully) haven't yet done a marathon shot that will push me to the point of muscle failure, which is the best test of "where is the weight going". However, I can say at this point that it distributes most of the weight to the the lower torso and legs, and you feel it mostly in the hamstrings and glutes. This is VERY different than the standard front-mounted vest, which of course attacks the lower back and quads. Shoulders are perhaps 15%--the load there is more to keep the front of the harness from riding down too far.

The DSD achieves its results from years of intense engineering (I think the current model is at least the 5th version) and some intricate carbon fiber work. The support arm is extremely beefy, as it must be to handle the torque placed on it (think how far from its point of attachment it has to travel). The materials are milled out to make it as light as possible, but it is still noticeably heavier than a standard vest.

There is a backmounted vest made by ActionCam ( http://www.actionproducts.ch/) which uses more traditional materials and styling. An operator friend of mine had one but after a substantial period of use, he switched to the DSD. I have heard of another operator who had the support arm on his ActionCam vest snap right off under load.

Bottom line is: I think it would be a very difficult component to homebuild, unless the rig flown on it would be particularly lightweight (DV) which makes it more forgiving. It's just a much more complicated set of forces than the traditional vest.

But go for it! Prove me wrong, daddy-o!

Charles,

Better be careful, with all this less fatigue you may have to watch your diet more, less excersize could mean more weight to shift around :) heh

zac

Thankfully on this show I'm managing to stay off the craft service treats--so far!

Actually, the back mounted vest does put a certain pressure on the abdomen--not uncomfortable, but certainly a reminder of the ol' spare tire...

Thanks for the answer Charles. Yes I know the vest from ActionProducts back mounted vest and is the kind of vest I'm looking to build. The DSD and its custom carbon fibre shell is to much for me! I don't have the dools to make something like that! The ActionProducts one is easyer to make. I have more pics with it from different angles so I'll manage to "inverse engineer" it! :) I'm not surprised that the support arm snaped under a big load. You can see from pics that the support arm on the AP is more like a joke... It has to be very sturdy. Especialy that it goes a long way to the back. I can only imagine what kind of force is there!
I'm not into making a replica of the AP vest. But it would be something like that. And it would be adjustable. A good think if I'll decide to sell that rig, too!

I would apreciate some more pics (detailes) with the ActionProducts vest, if someone has them and could e-mail me some... (I'll send them back, I promise :-).