I've been asked to shoot a cheerleading competition. I'd like to set up a booth and sell the videos from the competition and I've been given permission to do so and have a written agreement with the hosting school whom invited me.

Considering this is in a public place, high school gym, will I need to get any signed releases to sell the DVDs of the competition?

I'm going to check with the state high school athletic association to make sure I'm ok to video as well.

Any advice is appreciated.

My advice is to charge them a flat fee, let them handle all the sales and legal aspects, and walk away.

You are a videographer or you are a salesperson. Pick one and be it.

I've dabbled in exactly what you are considering a few times and it's rarely worth it.

Haha, well said.

However, if you do want to use it for anything, definitely get things signed. Never hurts, and can really help later.

You are a videographer or you are a salesperson. Pick one and be it.

I've dabbled in exactly what you are considering a few times and it's rarely worth it.

I appreciate your input and experience, but I couldn't disagree more. High Schools sports are huge in the South Eastern United States. There will be almost 2,000 people in the gym.

If I start charging people flat rates, no one will want to hire a videographer and I won't get the work. Will I sell myself short sometimes to make a $? Yep. The money may not be what I want, but the exposure is great. I think it takes some analysis to see what situation merits a flat rate or per DVD. So far though, I've done well. Maybe I'm just lucky, I don't know. This is my first cheerleading comp, so I may regret it, but I've been told this is a slam dunk.

My niche is sports and it works. Many of the videographers around me will do sports, but don't know much about them or the parents involved. I've read some posts here about cheerleading competitions and the complaints about handling customer phone calls, bounced checks, emails for orders, and shipping product and it all sounds lazy. That's business and those are the reasons I do it.

I trust myself handling the business side of my business more than the organizer of the cheerleading competition.

I found out that I don't need signatures in this situation. I'm guessing that is probably different from state-to-state.

Thanks for the advice and it's not the 1st time I've been told I need to pick one thing and stick to it. If I did that, I wouldn't be where I'm at and I'd die in a cubicle one day.

I like your spunk! I hope it works out for you. I did a similar thing for my wife's dance studio's recital. It turned out pretty good. I would like to start videon sports as well and I don't mind the business/marketing end. That is a personal decision though that isn't right for everybody.
Kyle

I like your spunk! I hope it works out for you. I did a similar thing for my wife's dance studio's recital. It turned out pretty good. I would like to start videon sports as well and I don't mind the business/marketing end. That is a personal decision though that isn't right for everybody.
Kyle

Thanks.
Yeah, I know I sound like a jerk, but it's tough not to when the words are typed on a forum. I don't mean to sound negative or aggressive or anything like that.

But I am pretty confident with this competition. Last competition they sold 400 competition t-shirts for $20 each. The videos will be going for $25 for a division and $40 for the whole day.

This may blow up in my face and be a dud. We'll see.

I totally agree that a lot of folks don't like the business and marketing stuff. Some family that I love dearly own their own companies, but don't give it 100%. Then again 100% doesn't promise success either.

Hey Jacob,

I'd be more concerned with the legal aspect than the profitability aspect. Generally if you're using someone's image to make money, you need a talent release form from anyone who could be recognized. In this case it sounds like there would be a lot of them. I think it's somewhat different because you're mostly selling to the competitors and their families, but if you began to sell it off-site to others, then you might open yourself up to legal action.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Good Luck.

Hey Jacob,

I'd be more concerned with the legal aspect than the profitability aspect. Generally if you're using someone's image to make money, you need a talent release form from anyone who could be recognized. In this case it sounds like there would be a lot of them. I think it's somewhat different because you're mostly selling to the competitors and their families, but if you began to sell it off-site to others, then you might open yourself up to legal action.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Good Luck.
Actually, the killer is competitions with music and the legality there. There is no easy music licensing. If you get competitions that involve music mixes, you have to have sync and master use licenses for everything to have the legal spectrum covered. No one understands it, so they don't seem to want to understand any delay you might have in release. They also do not understand that some artist do not want there music used at all, forget even considering that it will be on video (Bjork is a recent example from Winterguard International's competitions - new rule they have implemented is that the units must have clearance before they can compete in finals).

I avoid music events because I do not want to take on the risk of not dotting the i's, crossing the t's, and then having a 5 month delay and outright refusal. Doing it right is impossible to do with shipping in 6 weeks.

/gets of whining soapbox

Hey Jacob,

I'd be more concerned with the legal aspect than the profitability aspect. Generally if you're using someone's image to make money, you need a talent release form from anyone who could be recognized. In this case it sounds like there would be a lot of them. I think it's somewhat different because you're mostly selling to the competitors and their families, but if you began to sell it off-site to others, then you might open yourself up to legal action.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Good Luck.

I wish there were an all powerful legal expert that could answer my every question.

I spoke with the legal department of the state high school athletic association for information on those issues. I was told that the school is a public place and I've been given written permission by the event organizer and state association representative to be there to video the competition and sell the DVDs.

I don't know if it matters, but the videos won't be sold anywhere other than at the competition. No way I sell more than 300 DVDs. I'm shooting for 50.

We'll see.

I am going to hazard a guess and suggest the legal department of the state high school athletic association may not be staffed by experts in copyright and clearance issues. The issues are complicated. It would be in your best interest to speak to an atty. with experience.

I don't know if it matters, but the videos won't be sold anywhere other than at the competition. No way I sell more than 300 DVDs. I'm shooting for 50.

We'll see.

Also not trying to be a jerk, just looking at it from a business point.
At 50 units, you will at best make $1250-$2000, for a day of shooting and a week of editing, plus a day of sales and a day of shipping. Not my idea of super profitable. And not considering the headache if you only sell 10-20 copies.

So...
Here's a model I've used in the past, that might help you maximize your sales and minimize your risk.

I'd go to the school a month in advance, offer them a 50/50 net split, get them to send out a mailer to all the parents telling them that an event video will be available for $25 prepaid, or $40 on the day. Then I'd get the school to set up a sales table on the day of the event using a couple popular teens volunteering (and I'd bribe them with commission - $5 per disc).

Then I'd shoot it, cut it, and drop off a stack of duplicated discs to the school to mail out, and walk away with my half of the loot.

Also not trying to be a jerk, just looking at it from a business point.
At 50 units, you will at best make $1250-$2000, for a day of shooting and a week of editing, plus a day of sales and a day of shipping. Not my idea of super profitable. And not considering the headache if you only sell 10-20 copies.

So...
Here's a model I've used in the past, that might help you maximize your sales and minimize your risk.

I'd go to the school a month in advance, offer them a 50/50 net split, get them to send out a mailer to all the parents telling them that an event video will be available for $25 prepaid, or $40 on the day. Then I'd get the school to set up a sales table on the day of the event using a couple popular teens volunteering (and I'd bribe them with commission - $5 per disc).

Then I'd shoot it, cut it, and drop off a stack of duplicated discs to the school to mail out, and walk away with my half of the loot.

I didn't mention that this was also a favor in return for a previous job. I've been told that I should expect to sell many more units than I stated, but I'll believe that when I see it. As ambitious as I am, I'm also a bit pessimistic at times. I guess I mentally prepare for the worst, so that I don't get too complacent in preparation.

This is the first cheer leading comp, so this is different than the other things I've been doing. We will be sharing a table with the t-shirt folks from the school and are working on the possibility of package deals.

I like your model of splitting 50/50 with the school as an option. I thought of that for future spots, but this one is a mix of personal and business. I think the best situation would be to shoot, edit, and cut one video for a flat rate and have the school handle the rest, but no one is willing to pay that price never mind how logical is it and ultimately more profitable for the school. There are other companies shooting for "free" to sell DVDs in return and doing it on a national scale and are very, very successful. One is Mr. Video.

The more input I get the more legal questions I have. I'm going to get some info from an atty with copyright experience. I figure all of the bases will be covered at that point.

I knew there was a reason I like coming to this forum. I'm glad everyone is open and willing to share experiences and give advice.

Adding my .02 cents FWIW, the problem with getting permission from the high school etc to shoot only covers the act of filming itself. Their statement that you don't need releases from the participants would certainly be true if you were shooting news coverage of the event for TV broadcast, for example. But you're planning on using the images (and sounds) for a commercial purpose, selling the images in the form of a DVD as a retail enterprise in this case and there's a vast legal difference between the two different uses of exactly the same image. I can take your picture as you walk down the street without getting your permission. If it's part of coverage of a news event I can publish the picture in the newspaper without your permission. I can even put that picture on public display as part of an exhibit in an art gallery without your permission (although there have been a few court cases in recent years attempting to dispute that). But if I offer "Pictures of Jacob" for retail sale at a shopping mall kiosk or sell the image to Kellogs to use on a cereal box, I'll need your release or I'm in the deep stuff when you decide to sue. The same reasoning will apply to the images you capture during the competitition.

I can take your picture as you walk down the street without getting your permission. If it's part of coverage of a news event I can publish the picture in the newspaper without your permission. I can even put that picture on public display as part of an exhibit in an art gallery without your permission (although there have been a few court cases in recent years attempting to dispute that). But if I offer "Pictures of Jacob" for retail sale at a shopping mall kiosk or sell the image to Kellogs to use on a cereal box, I'll need your release or I'm in the deep stuff when you decide to sue. The same reasoning will apply to the images you capture during the competitition.

If you think you can make a profit off of "Pictures of Jacob" you have my permission, but I have to warn you it hasn't worked for me.

I wonder if the rules are any different if the profit is going to the school which is a non-profit organization?

I guess I'm trying to figure out how some of these guys that are currently doing it are conducting business. They're probably like most everyone else and technically vilotating privacy and copyright laws and no one cares.

I'm not sure anyone does anything totally legal anymore. I was in my friend's wedding video that she paid $2k for and no one asked me for permission to use my image and performance of the electric slide.

Off to the atty I go.

...
I'm not sure anyone does anything totally legal anymore. I was in my friend's wedding video that she paid $2k for and no one asked me for permission to use my image and performance of the electric slide.

Off to the atty I go. Well, remember that these are civil and not criminal actions. Your friend's videographer didn't need your release to use you in the wedding video because you haven't sued him over it. But if you did sue, he's have to pay a lawyer to defend it. If he had a release in hand, YOUR lawyer would probably tell you not to bother suing. Releases etc aren't required by law except that the law says they protect you against suit.

I guess I'm trying to figure out how some of these guys that are currently doing it are conducting business. They're probably like most everyone else and technically vilotating privacy and copyright laws and no one cares.




I forgot to mention the other big bonus of splitting it with the school. Everyone competing will likely sign a waiver or release form. It doesn't take much for the school to add a paragraph about being filmed for an event video.

Well, remember that these are civil and not criminal actions. Your friend's videographer didn't need your release to use you in the wedding video because you haven't sued him over it. But if you did sue, he's have to pay a lawyer to defend it. If he had a release in hand, YOUR lawyer would probably tell you not to bother suing. Releases etc aren't required by law except that the law says they protect you against suit.


I'm a by-the-book type of guy and this type of large audience event is a first for me. Much different than a wedding and other smaller, individual based projects.

I want to be as legally pure as possible, but I have a feeling I'm going to miss something ignorantly. And I'm the guy that worries that the one wrong person will be in attendance and looking to cause problems.

What I'm going to shoot for is to get signatures from all of the competitors parents and keep the cameras on them. That shouldn't be too much of a problem as I'll get to the coaches early and talk to them about the taping. I'll have talent release forms ready with signatures for the parents and competitors.

If anyone refuses to sign, I won't tape their performance.

Hi Jacob -
First, don't be surprised if you sell quite a few more DVD's than you expect - I shot one recital as a "favor" for a friend - as an afterthought they announced DVD's would be available - I expected 20 tops, burned over 100... a little marketing and probably would have been a lot more... People like watching themselves or especially for parents, their "kids"...

Second, when you find an attorney that can answer ALL legal questions surrounding IP (intellectual property, which includes copyrights, etc.), you'd better also buy a lottery ticket, because you'd be the luckiest man alive!!

Attorneys can parse words to argue anything... what does "is" mean...? If someone is "looking to make trouble", they can probably find an atty to take the case... this is the risk one takes in a litigious society, best you can hope for is to try to cover your tail any way you can think of in advance and cross your fingers. If you've covered your tail reasonably well in advance, your legal fees should only wipe out 2-3 years of profits rather than your whole business should you get "screwed" (oops, I meant to say sued...).

Legal issues can pretty much suck the fun out of anything, but ya gotta try to be careful and proceed with caution. Keep in mind that any legal advice you get is only going to provide guidance... you can be 100% in the right and still end up on the recieving end of a suit... and lose... just life in these United States!

I explored this area for my business and i have to be honest, I didn't delve into the legalities until after I did my initial "test" on the potential market.

my conclusion is yes, it could be worthwhile covering such sporting events.

But as someone earlier mentioned. A lot of work needs to be done to generate adequate earnings and compared to other avenues, well, for me its not a contender.

My feeling is that if one could deliver a good product which couldn't be copied too easily then, and only then, could it pay off.
I tried to discourage copying by going heavy on the cover and disc design on this particular project.

http://www.iol.ie/~griffinpromedia/nabba/nabba.html

Hi Jacob -
First, don't be surprised if you sell quite a few more DVD's than you expect - I shot one recital as a "favor" for a friend - as an afterthought they announced DVD's would be available - I expected 20 tops, burned over 100... a little marketing and probably would have been a lot more... People like watching themselves or especially for parents, their "kids"...

Second, when you find an attorney that can answer ALL legal questions surrounding IP (intellectual property, which includes copyrights, etc.), you'd better also buy a lottery ticket, because you'd be the luckiest man alive!!

Attorneys can parse words to argue anything... what does "is" mean...? If someone is "looking to make trouble", they can probably find an atty to take the case... this is the risk one takes in a litigious society, best you can hope for is to try to cover your tail any way you can think of in advance and cross your fingers. If you've covered your tail reasonably well in advance, your legal fees should only wipe out 2-3 years of profits rather than your whole business should you get "screwed" (oops, I meant to say sued...).

Legal issues can pretty much suck the fun out of anything, but ya gotta try to be careful and proceed with caution. Keep in mind that any legal advice you get is only going to provide guidance... you can be 100% in the right and still end up on the recieving end of a suit... and lose... just life in these United States!

Jacob,

This is pretty good advice. This is why it would be better, (though likely would not work), to follow Dylan's initial advice. That is, to get paid by the school to shoot the competition, edit the job, and turn over the tapes.

Here's a scenario. The whole cheerleading team, but one member, sign a release. does this mean you can't shoot the team?

I'd consider this too. These are cheerleaders. Would-be, wanna-be, models or actresses or whatever. The likelihood that one of them (or their parents) is going to guard their image closely, is much higher than say... the high school jazz band or the football team. Especially if you've got skirts flying up, or unflattering shots... yikes! Could be trouble.

Or worse yet! Someone buys a copy of your DVD, re-cuts it (or maybe not), and it shows up on youtube or some soft porn site under the title 'Hot, Young, Cheerleaders'. I know it's not likely, but there's something about the cheerleading aspect of this that makes it seem like trouble.

You live in a very litigious country. It's so bad that MY insurance company in Canada won't insure me if I do business in the US. They say the likelihood of getting sued is far too great.

I hope it works out for you.

off hand ! ...
who is responsable party for state sales tax ?
the school if they are selling ? ( jacob sells wholesale to school )
Jacob if he is selling ?
or eveybody forgets sales tax ?

off hand ! ...
who is responsable party for state sales tax ?
the school if they are selling ? ( jacob sells wholesale to school )
Jacob if he is selling ?
or eveybody forgets sales tax ?


I'm taking on the state sales tax.

Things went as I expected on Saturday. We sold 23 instead of the 20 I predicted. This event was very different than anything else I’ve done. I have a huge appreciation for anyone who is part of a broadcast team that produces a live event that lasts 10 hours. I did it by myself with some help from a kid keeping an eye on the full view camera. We got there at 7am and didn’t leave until 7pm and it was intense from start to finish. Intense = fun and tired.

It’s funny how people will pay $22 for a t-shirt, but “I ain’t payin’ that much for a video”. Next time I’ll package DVDs in a case stitched to a company promotion t-shirt and I’ll sell hundreds of units. We took a bunch of email addresses, so when I get a little demo to send those folks I suspect I’ll take in a few more orders if not several more. My biggest problem was that I didn’t have a “cheerleading” demo to run on the TV at our display table and no one knows what to expect from the final product. I had demos of other stuff, but not cheerleading.

I captured the audio with a rented AKG C414 on a mic stand about 20 feet from the competitors. The DJ was set up on the gym floor about 45 degrees from the mic and the sound turned out pretty good for a 1-mic set up. No clipping and nice range.

I’ve been asked to do another competition coming up in a month or so and I learned a lot about what to expect next time. I’m very pleased with the number of people that we’re in attendance through out the day and the DJ did an awesome job throwing “plugs” our way every 30 minutes or so. Sure, I would’ve liked to have sold more units up front, but getting our name out there to over 1,000 people in our demographic wheelhouse is good too. Plus, I love this stuff.

Not sure if anyone else has had this happen, but my wife said that several people came up to her at the booth and asked, “Are yall taking pictures too?” Apparently they thought we were also one of those “sports shots” groups. Those guys always seem to do well at the ball fields.

I took this job primarily on the prospect of future business, learning the process and legal issues, and after the post production process is complete I think people will be impressed and know what they’re paying for next time.

Not sure if anyone else has had this happen, but my wife said that several people came up to her at the booth and asked, “Are yall taking pictures too?” Apparently they thought we were also one of those “sports shots” groups. Those guys always seem to do well at the ball fields.

Yep. And they will pay $10 for a single still and not your price for the entire comp. Go figure.

Based on my experience, you might get 3-7 after event sales if you are lucky. It goes out of sight and mind after the event.

Based on my experience, you might get 3-7 after event sales if you are lucky. It goes out of sight and mind after the event.

You're probably right. There are more than a couple of teams that want to purchase them as a group for the price break and we traded email addresses and such, but we'll see.

It was what I expected it to be. I will focus more attention to a demo for the next one.

George, do you do these as well? I see that you're close. I grew up in Gwinnett, but like many locals we've moved on to other locations not so crowded.

You're probably right. There are more than a couple of teams that want to purchase them as a group for the price break and we traded email addresses and such, but we'll see.

It was what I expected it to be. I will focus more attention to a demo for the next one.

George, do you do these as well? I see that you're close. I grew up in Gwinnett, but like many locals we've moved on to other locations not so crowded.
I have shot band competitions in the past. And yes, here in Gwinnett.

The demo will help too.