hi guys

Since Sony released there XDCAM EX is Canon going to be bringing anything out new soon.

I just like to know before i make any purchases

Robert

It's been out for only about 9 or 10 months.

Honestly, I don't know what Canon would do to update this unit. Unless they decided to go tapeless and use the space the tape deck would leave to incorporate a larger chip set (as the XDCAM EX).

All I know is, I'm very happy with my new XH-A1. The only update it REALLY needs is a solution to the Chromatic Aberration issue at wide angles, but that doesn't affect my films because I shoot telephoto more often than not (and then pull the camera way the heck back), and I haven't noticed any CA at telephoto thus far.

Really, just spend $3500 on an A1, $1500 on a good 35mm adapter (minus the cost for lenses, of course), and another $1200 on the Canon FireStore, and you've got a better system (IMO) for under $7k.

My two cents.

hi guys

Since Sony released there XDCAM EX is Canon going to be bringing anything out new soon.

I just like to know before i make any purchases

Robert

Robert,

If Canon ever releases a replacement for the A1, I doubt if it will be in the same class. The XDCAM EX is 1/2" sized sensor. That would mean we are not talking anymore of the same price bracket.


Plus there are other things that need be addressed. Will Sony license the XDCAM format to Canon? Does Canon have another format in mind? Now, that alone is a big headache because you better have a way for NLEs to edit that, unless you can proxy into DV and have an intermediate software render it to your native format.

There are other things I am sure that will have to be considered. But another thing I see is the price. Once you hit 1/2" or some larger than 1/3" we may see a bump in price, and I'm sure it's not just U$500 over the current A1 price. However, if Canon somehow found a way to create 1/2" CMOS chip for a much lower cost and are willing to go on a price/performance war, well that can only be good news for us.

As far as it goes, any improvements on the A1 will be incremental. More of addressing the weakness of the A1. Things like a larger and higher rez LCD, or redoing the battery compartment, or other niggles that may be of concern for the current A1 design. Other than that, unless they use a new sensor with better low light capabilities that will be close to a 1/2" sensor, any updates will be irritation or niggle fixes.

I think if you need the A1 now, and you are aware of its weaknesses, you can buy it now and still be in the game even if they somehow snuck a new model in 6 months. Personally, it's really Sony that is ramping up models and modifying basic designs to hit all perceived segments in the market. That's where I would be looking at if I were to be surprised by any new models. After all, the FX1 and Z1 are 3 year old models. I would not be surprised if they came out with a substitute for these cameras in 3-6 months. They are really overdue.

Canon must do something to compete with the EX. Tape is not going to be around in 5 years. If nothing happens Canon users will jump to Sony when the EX hits the 4k price - which it will, by time.

The CA in the lense exist in all L-lenses (and with Nikon... etc... too). I don't think they will do something to make it better. Look at their other lenses (for SLRs) and you will see that even the best lenses have quite high CA.

Perhaps Fujinon makes better lenses, I don't know. There are some pro Canon lenses for video for some 20k or so. Don't know what you get. Prob. dead-on focus at any zoom-level etc. etc. Someday I might find out... Greg has a F355 I think - I'm sure he can tell what you get for the extra bucks.

Canon must do something to compete with the EX. Tape is not going to be around in 5 years. If nothing happens Canon users will jump to Sony when the EX hits the 4k price - which it will, by time.

It doesn't even have to hit the 4k price for me - I've already decided to make the jump barring any unexpected shortcomings in the EX. I've only had my A1 for a year, and I think it's an incredible camera - but the opportunity to drop tape, go full raster with a higher bit rate and variable frame rate, plus step up to 1/2" progressive sensors without having to go up to a larger form factor is just to good to pass up. The way I look at it, taking into account the resale value of my A1 plus the tax write-off on the new camera, the upgrade will likely only really cost me $2-3k, maybe even less - depending on the street price of the EX.

The only update it REALLY needs is a solution to the Chromatic Aberration issue at wide angles
What??? What's the issue? I shoot a lot of stuff at wide angle settings and am considering the A1... but this doesn't sound good.

"Tape is not going to be around in 5 years"

I disagree. Tape will be around for many generations. Whether or not fresh batches of prosumer cameras require tape is another story.

You will be able to ingest tape into your computer for years to come.

I work with high-end pro equipment every day and the tape we sift through to add to current daily news dates back over 30 years. Thankfully it looks thirty years old to convince viewers of its authenticity. This archived footage must be retrievable on thirty more years.

One shouldn't fear losing a competitive edge when choosing to purchase the A1 because of tape. In the end, using tape boils down to how much time you have to finish a project. News stations all around the world produce hours of TV every day...with tape. Unless most of these stations have an influx of riches, they won't change unless they have to.

Tapeless operations will take over at some point, but by that time the A1 will be as historic as 3/4" Umatic.

Evan. It will prob. drop some 1500 very quickly, but if it saves you time then 1500 is nothing. Time is money. When it is close to 5k or so I'm going to pick one up - unless Canon made a better one. I'll still keep my A1 as it is a good lense, capturing directly to disk anyow.

Bill. CA exist in all lenses - even the best. Under extreme conditions it looks very bad, but most of the time you never see it.

Jay. Time will tell. Let's return to this topic in 2012 and see how much tape that is left. As for Evan above and many other - time is money - and tape is not an option then. Do you buy a VHS tape rec. today? I don't - I have a hard disc rec. It took about 3 years for the HDR to kill the VHS market. Same will go with tape vs. solid state, IMO.

I was looking for a HV20 in Hong Kong a couple of weeks ago. Difficult to find. I kept hearing the following: "There is no market for tape based solutions in the consumer sector any more". It really happens very quickly.

Nothing against tapes. I still like them (for most of my work).

I was looking for a HV20 in Hong Kong a couple of weeks ago. Difficult to find. I kept hearing the following: "There is no market for tape based solutions in the consumer sector any more". It really happens very quickly.

Nothing against tapes. I still like them (for most of my work).

Interesting. I do most my recording with A1 directly to laptop so it will be a good camera for a long time still - tape or not - but I will certainly have a look at the EX next time (or Canon version if that exist at that time).

if canon upgrades anything in this line, it will most likely be the H1, to get embedded audio via HD-SDI...the A1 is still one of the better values in the market. solid state recording is still in its infancy--relative to tape, it is still expensive and recording times are short. it's not that efficient for the majority of applications. certainly this is changing fast, but not that fast....moreover with 3rd-party apps which allow portable recording to flash drives, they will probably be monitoring that market demand closely before they make any sudden moves.

XDCAM EX is more of a competitor to panasonic's offerings than to canon's, so other than dropping prices and maybe adding the audio feature, i'm guessing that they will sit this one out.

i'd be happy to be proven wrong though!

moreover with 3rd-party apps which allow portable recording to flash drives

If SanDisk et al. can do a good one I'd buy it on the spot. The current hard disk drives that exist have not gotten top reviews.

If nothing happens Canon users will jump to Sony when the EX hits the 4k price - which it will, by time.

Sony isn't going to run their 7K camcorder with 1/2" sensors down to 4K. That'd be nice, but not gonna happen.

Sony isn't going to run their 7K camcorder with 1/2" sensors down to 4K. That'd be nice, but not gonna happen.

just wait and see...

"4k GPS systems will never be standard in cars..."

this is the type of 3rd-party device i'm talking about...for the G1 and the H1, not the A1 so much.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=102312&highlight=convergent

by the time the XDCAM EX camera price is cut in half, it will mean that there will be something better that you want more, for a higher price....isn't that how it typically works?

by the time the XDCAM EX camera price is cut in half, it will mean that there will be something better that you want more, for a higher price....isn't that how it typically works?

Not necess. - the A1 was "pro" some years ago - and here we sit with it... even though G1, EX, ..., F355, ... exist...

not sure what you mean by the A1 was "pro" some years ago...it was released last november, roughly. it's not even a year since it was released. it's an interesting perception, that this is somehow "old" tech....

especially when the existing delivery systems are only barely capable of outputting the images this camera can produce.

I think the question isn't whether tape will be around in five years (I think it will in some form or another) but whether this camera will be a viable camera to use on many shoots in five years.

For example, the DVX100 was fairly revolutionary, and came out in fall of 2002. Five years ago. I'd still use one on a shoot, but it's getting a tad long in the tooth. The Canon isn't as revolutionary, but it follows what is now a pretty good standard of HDV at 1080p. So I think it's safe to say it will be around as a viable camera in 2010 or so.

As to Canon updating the A1, I don't think so. Not for a while, like many months. Plus I think it's incorrect to compare the EX to the A1, as the cost is double. Comparing the H1 to the EX is more accurate.

Meryem, The A1 procdues what pro equip. did some years ago. with your reasoning we should just skip that and go for "state of the art" today. Well, not with our (mine) budgets. In 2-3 years the EX will be "A1 as of 2007" and there will be an ABC 123 model from XYZ doing 3x the quality of EX at 7k ... but the "todays EX" will be there as semi-pro for 4k. It's just a matter where you want to be in the spectra of quality and price. Some just have to buy the latest and - thank heavens - pay for the development of new tech. Just as there are some that buys the 100k BMWs/MBs and pay for that. After 3 years all that "goodies" are in the standard cars - same applies for camcorders.

Phil, I think that the "user need" is important here. If you travel a lot and use "moving camera" a lot you might want to have the latest in auto focus, ability to film in poor light conditions etc. These users will surely want to upgrade if better units exist. For the other users, like me, that mostly do stationary work with good lights I would not upgrade for such reasons. As long as the lense/sensor etc. performs I'm happy. Would I need/want 4k resolution? Hm. Will the TVs, DVDs etc. be able to reflect that and will customers/viewer value it? Perhaps then would I upgrade to such a unit. But as for now I can see the A1 being used a long time still.

There is perhaps not much Canon can do to upgrade it, unless a new house, exchangeable lenses etc. But then they are targeting their other brands - to stay within the A1-area I think they are happy. There are wish-lists for next A1. Perhaps that will give a clue what will happen in 3 years or so.

Meryem, The A1 procdues what pro equip. did some years ago.
Which pro equipment do you mean that the A! duplicates now? A few years ago all the pro video equipment was SD wasn't it?

Or maybe you are talking about cinema cameras, with 35mm lenses and all the accoutrements, any one of which by itself would cost multiples of the cost of an A!.

I think the A1 is in its own class. It blows up well to 35mm film and you can carry it in a small overnight bag with all the accessories you need for a professional product.

I think the camera you should look at is the Red. It does way more than the cinema video cameras of a few years ago, and it's a fraction of the price. The only problem with this level of "quality" image, is that the lenses are not likely to drop 10 times in price.

Which pro equipment do you mean that the A! duplicates now? A few years ago all the pro video equipment was SD wasn't it?

Probably - but compare the ability to shot in dark places. A modern unit will not duplicate any former unit - it will outperform them, to a lower price.

Or maybe you are talking about cinema cameras, with 35mm lenses and all the accoutrements, any one of which by itself would cost multiples of the cost of an A!.

The S-klasse costs 10 times the Toyota - and still you find the "S-klasse" stuff from 1995 in a Toyota now. Who do you think invented the ABS system (and paid for it) ... but now we are not talking about camcorders - perhaps we should go back to that :)

I have an A1 - it's good. I'm not peddling EX - if anyone thought that.

Nope, not interested in being a multi-camera man. The rare occasions I need real pro stuff I will hire the folks for it.

"is that the lenses are not likely to drop 10 times in price"
Right, good lenses last a long time - much longer than any sensor technology. Canon have sold some 30M lenses - prob. most of them are still used today. I guess that the SLR bodies are not.

Probably - but compare the ability to shot in dark places. A modern unit will not duplicate any former unit - it will outperform them, to a lower price.
Can you please give the make and model number of this former unit? Thanks.

Can you please give the make and model number of this former unit? Thanks.

No, don't keep track of models, brands etc. of yesterday's gadgets (not even today's gadgets ) - I'm just using what's at hand. I'm sure there are plenty of guys that can give exact specs. for anything. I'm not one of those however. And yes, HD was not around in 19xx - so much we can agree upon. The rest we might never agree upon. Wasn't there a song with Fred and Ginger?

To return to the topic

"Are they going to update the XHA1": who knows
If so, will it be better: probably, why make it worse
Will it be cheaper: who knows
When will it be availble: who knows, but "carpe diem" and start making money with what's at hand today.

I guess that sums up the topic.

Phil, I think that the "user need" is important here...

Oh yes. I'd say that even applies very much to purchasing in the first place. First in comparing something like P2 cards to tape, or the fact that the HVX200 will overcrank. Or how the OIS is superior on the Canon's to anything else out there (I sure think so). But also in comparing ergonomics, how it feels in your hands. And how you like the look of the camera's picture, both tweaked and untweaked. I really like the look of the Canon's, for example. Something about the Flourite lenses, the guts of the thing. I like the HVX almost as much. The JVC HD100 I'm in the middle about. I hate the look of the Sony Z1. But for the most part like the look of the V1 quite a bit, which is quite different looking. A friend of mine however loves the look of the Z1, but not the V1. And so on...

Based on Canon's track record of updates to their prosumer line camcorder products about every three years, I would expect the A1 to receive an update in around 2 years give or take.

No, don't keep track of models, brands etc. of yesterday's gadgets (not even today's gadgets )

My point was that I don't think there was such a camera you describe. (Don't even know if you are talking digital or tape.) In any case, I believe that the A1 is better than Beta SP. So what was better than Beta SP back in the day, I can't imagine without an example.

Betacam SP was a format, and there were some really good Betacam SP cameras and a couple of really rotten ones. HDV is definitely better. Whether the Canon would look better than a BVW600 recording to an HDV deck, I dunno. If you want to compare HDV to Betacam SP it should be done with equivalent cameras...although at this point there isn't one, since no HDV cameras go past 1/3" chips, except for XDCAM HD which is HDV but really isn't because it uses 35mbs...HDV on acid?

My flippant point is that it makes sense to compare formats to formats and cameras to cameras, but not a 1/3" chip camera to a 2/3" chip one because how do you know which one's the better camera unless you can look at both of them recorded to the same format? Or at least look at them with live outputs, and in that case I think the BVW600 would win.

All of which is really irrelevant. But I always think about the earlier DV days when this comes up because we had people comparing hand held video shot with no lights from a PD150 to beautiful photographed stuff shot with BVW400s, etc., and proclaiming that DV didn't look as good as Betacam SP, when in fact it looks slightly better if you compare apples to apples, or chips to chips as the case may be.

All of which is really irrelevant. But I always think about the earlier DV days when this comes up because we had people comparing hand held video shot with no lights from a PD150 to beautiful photographed stuff shot with BVW400s....

This is REALLY true. I've said on this and many other forums that the old saying really applies: It's the carpenter, not the tools. Give John Toll a Canon XH-A1 and a small lighting kit, and his footage will look better than mine using the Phantom 65 and the whole grip truck.