No name on the cams yet but here they are

http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowContent.action?BIZ_SESSIONID=S2YpGvkGJNx1YpgWKhTvGSBrrNzwvq7f61VySqdpTbDVJ8scgvQY!-1933814116&contentId=1187079485470&site=biz_en_CH

and

http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowContent.action?contentId=1187079485406

Note from Admin: Camcorder images added. (08 Sep 07 at 11am CST)

Sony is definitely appealing to the ENG market with this. With US HD news affiliates popping up like popcorn, it's no doubt these cameras might do the trick.

Don't know about Canada though...

"Lenses from the popular Digital SLR – a System from Sony can also be used with a special adaptor" , that's nice, i wonder how those lenses would behave

Canon XL-H1 and JVC GY-HD250 have new competition

Both these cameras look VERY interesting! Must say, I'm a little bit excited!

They look gorgeous. Can't wait to read more information about them.

"1/3” 3ClearVid CMOS Sensor"

Does this mean a single 1/3 inch sensor? Or three of them?

"1/3” 3ClearVid CMOS Sensor"

Does this mean a single 1/3 inch sensor? Or three of them?

Three of course.

What's interesting is the native 25p mode (I read it as opposed to the 25PsF as per the V1E). Should US models arrive, would they only offer "native" 30p per analogy, or 24p with pull-down as well?

I wonder if Sony might have been influenced by a certain Italian videographer hacking the front of his FX1 and substituting still-camera lenses.

Looking at the pictures here:

http://ibc.mikkowilson.com/2007photos/friday/index_1.htm

there are 3 rings on the handheld model lens, and rotating handgrip is there like with the EX1 (the tape compartment being relocated).

Can someone explain how 4-ch audio recording is accomplished?
I didn't think that was in the HDV spec.

Four-channel audio recording has been part of the HDV specification since Canon first introduced it as one of the features of the XL H1 back in September 2005. As one of the HDV consortium members, Canon added Frame mode and four-channel audio to the HDV spec (it's flexible that way).

It's the same amount of bandwidth as two-channel audio, except it's divided four ways instead of two ways. It works out to 192kbps per both stereo pairs in four-channel, as opposed to 384kbps in two-channel audio. Hope this helps,

I wonder if Sony might have been influenced by a certain Italian videographer hacking the front of his FX1 and substituting still-camera lenses.Ha! Yes, that would be our old friend Matteo! I think you're on to something there Bob,

Sony is definitely appealing to the ENG market with this

Perhaps, but many news outlets won't even consider using cameras with 1/3 sensors. They want 2/3 because of the wide variety of scenarios the cameras have to operate in with available light.

Have to say, those are some good looking cameras and are taking the HDV format much further than I would have imagined.

-gb-

Perhaps, but many news outlets won't even consider using cameras with 1/3 sensors. They want 2/3 because of the wide variety of scenarios the cameras have to operate in with available light.

Well, there's always XDCAM HD...

And so it begins....

Interchangeable lenses on handheld prosumer cameras? Well, I bet it would be safe to say that a whole new class of prosumer models will be on the way for next year?

Three of course.

Actually, CMOS is single chip technology.

Not sure i really understand your post/point Mark!

Piotr I think was just referring to the fact that both the new cams have 3 CMOS sensors (as would be expected in this class of machines).

Of course a CMOS sensor can function perfectly as 1 unit - as demonstrated on many other more consumer-end Sony and Canon machines.

And so it begins....

Interchangeable lenses on handheld prosumer cameras? Well, I bet it would be safe to say that a whole new class of prosumer models will be on the way for next year?
How many of the former fixed lens users do you think will actually pony up the extra cash to buy another lens or two?

-A

There is a revolution happening and HDV is part of it and seems will have a nice future.
The diversity of products outlets, the need and desire for affordable and efficient tools is what is changing the production world.
Thanks to canon and Sony, it is now possible to have a nice ENG-EFP production unit for below $7000.

"Lenses from the popular Digital SLR – a System from Sony can also be used with a special adaptor" , that's nice, i wonder how those lenses would behave

I'm very curious about this statement too. Is it talking about some kind of propriatary Sony SLR lens or can any regular Nikon or Canon photo lens be used with this camera and the adaptor?
It would be wonderful if Sony/Panasonic/Cannon began making lens adaptors that were specifically designed for use with their cameras. I know JVC already has one for the 250's, but it's PL mount only isnt it?

This could be a fun year in the prosumer market.

Not sure i really understand your post/point Mark!

Piotr I think was just referring to the fact that both the new cams have 3 CMOS sensors (as would be expected in this class of machines).

Of course a CMOS sensor can function perfectly as 1 unit - as demonstrated on many other more consumer-end Sony and Canon machines.

I thought CMOS sensors were a single chip. Guess not.

Just like CCD image sensors, CMOS image sensors can be employed singularly, or in multiples around a beam splitter. The three-chip arrangement is the most common multiple-sensor layout, but there have been two-chip cameras and other variations in the past.

Intuitively, there would be an advantage in adding a 35mm lens adapter to a camera with a removable lens - you can get the redundant zoom lens out of the path and simplify the setup - no focus and zoom to adjust on the built in jack-of-all-trades lens. Any glass between the sensor and the ground glass could be fixed.

Is this true, or am I over-simplifying things?

This is spectacular news- I've always wanted a handheld interchangeable lens camera that can accept DSLR lenses.......it would be perfect if it had an onboard hard-drive!!!

Wonder what these things will cost?

I find it a bit awkward that the handheld HDV camera has an interchangeable lens but the EX1 doesn’t unless Sony is also going to show an EX2 soon.

Since the EX1 cost around 7,000 to 7,500 dollars with 2 cards, I would estimate the HDV model at 5,000 to 5,500 dollars. The Z1u was around 5,500 when it first came out.

Now where is Canon and Panasonic when you need them? It’s their turn to show us new cameras and they better do it quick because Sony is about to get a lot of preorders.

I thought the EX hasn't come out yet? Perhaps this feature will make it in?

Perhaps, but many news outlets won't even consider using cameras with 1/3 sensors.
Not to mention investing in 1/3" lenses.

Honestly, I've been expecting less HDV and more HDD or flash-based camcorders, but this is exciting! I am curious if there will be an American announcement like we saw last year with the V1u and FX7.

Btw, I know of some smaller stations using DVCPro cameras, but also the DVX100-series and some have reportedly gone over the the Z1u. I'm not sure if they're shooting HDV or just DV.

Scripps TV stations, including the NBC affiliate I worked at years ago, here in West Palm Beach, are going HDV via the JVC HD250.

heath

Smaller one looks exactly like a V1u with a bigger, interchangeable lens. If it replaces the V1, I'm betting prices will drop on those units!

heath

Smaller one looks exactly like a V1u with a bigger, interchangeable lens. If it replaces the V1, I'm betting prices will drop on those units!

heathIt's a different chipset to the V1.
- It's 1/3in and V1 is 1/4in and V1 is also quite a bit smaller and lighter.
I'm very sure the V1 will be around for a long time. Sony tend to keep their 'Broadcast' division machines like Z1, A1 etc going for some years.

Basically i view the handheld 1/3in interchangeable lens cam as, essentially, a replacement for the Z1 with improvements (like the lens swappable) etc. Same sensor size. I thought that Sony must bring out a 3x 1/3in CMOS Clearvid sensor machine sooner or later to fill in this gap in their range. I would expect the Z1 to (probably) be ceased to manufacture sometime soon (note it will no doubt be available for *sale* for quite some time, but i would speculate that Sony won't be making too many more Z1s as this new handheld cam effectively takes over from the Z1 in its product lineup (IMO).

Not to mention investing in 1/3" lenses.

Well, according to the preliminary info on the Sony Europe site:

"The handheld camcorder is supplied with an interchangeable HD Carl Zeiss lens with 1/3” bayonet joint mechanism, allowing the flexibility of attaching existing 2/3” or 1/2” lenses with a standard lens adaptor. Lenses from the popular Digital SLR – a System from Sony can also be used with a special adaptor."

So you can use even 2/3" lens with it!

Using a lens which creates an image circle larger than intended for the camera's image sensor (i.e., a 2/3rd-inch lens and a 1/3rd-inch sensor) will result in a crop factor which increases the effective field of view of that lens. Which is fine if you need a longer focal length, but problematic if you want a wide field of view.

I get your point, Chris - but since the same possibility is planned for the real pro, shoulder-mount "brother", I guess the move has been deeply thought through by Sony engineers.

Aside from enabling choice among third- and half-inch lenses, lens interchangeability also makes possible DOF adapters with simpler relay lenses, which I assume, would reduce light loss.

Very cool cameras...can't wait!

Scott

The Z1u has been around for over 2 1/2 years now. I could see this camera replacing both it and the V1u.

heath

Hi there

this camera has answered a number of issues for me...and also answers a question I asked on here a year or so back....when and HD DSR 250?
What does it offer me?
1) I prefer the shoulder format. The Z1 is a heavy & unbalanced beast made worse by matte box and mic. Shoulder support only goes part way to helping.
2) As its HDV my current editing set up will handle it.
3) While I like the form of the new tapeless Xdcam EX..it raises a number of issues I'm not sure I'lm ready for just yet..ie. a)lack of compatibility with (my) NLE system, In fact I'm already struggling to handle HDV on my Pc's... b)Need for large capacity back up hard drives (already I have a hard job managing the large files, I've 2To's of HD already) c) also the cost and small capacity of the SxS cards. 16go is small and expensive .. prices will come down.. but...
4) Large format looks more professional... a problem with the Z1 is people often don't take it seriously.. this does count with clients as many will have found.
5) Better connectivity...
6) Interchangeable lenses is an optional..
7) For the time being HDV is more than enough resolution... SD is not dead yet and it will be a few years before your average user has any regular HD set up...
So while the Xdcam looks superb.. I really don't want another handycam.. I guess this is the bottom line. I can't affiord a full size Xdcam, and have been forced to by a Z1 for my needs. The DSR250 would have been a choice but lack of 16:9 and no HDV made it a non starter...

It has to be said that while we are now going to be swamped with choice of format and form over the last two years the choice has been very limited for the entry pro market, for me the Z1 was the only viable choice...

cheers

Gareth

Both of these cameras are labelled as "Professional HDV." Does that refer to any changes in the codec, or just to things like interchangeable lenses and XLR inputs?

Also, I see the 25p frame rate, but no mention of 30p or 24p. Are these cams PAL only?

Any idea on size/weight of the handycam?

Both of these cameras are labelled as "Professional HDV." Does that refer to any changes in the codec, or just to things like interchangeable lenses and XLR inputs?

Just marketing speak. The same way that Apple says iMovie has "professional quality" transitions.


-A

I'll be curious to see the image quality and low-light sensitivity of a 3-chip 1/3" CMOS camera. Have we seen multiple 1/3" CMOS chips before? Is it fair to assume that this camera's image quality will be better than the V1, but poorer than the XDCAM EX?

I'm also going to be curious about size and weight of the handycam. It looks nice and compact, but I can't tell how big that lens is. Wouldn't one of these babies and an HDMI version of Convergent Designs Flash XDR be a nice pairing?

It seems like Sony is slicing their prosumer market into mighty narrow segments.

A thought: are these the last two tape-based cameras Sony will ever produce (at least in this market segment)?

Bigger sensors always give better signal-to-noise ratio, so the EX is a plus. But the interchangeable lenses are exciting! I also wonder about these being the last tape-based cameras; we certainly are moving towards HDD, DVD (SD, Blu-Ray, etc.), Flash, etc.

heath

I'll be curious to see the image quality and low-light sensitivity of a 3-chip 1/3" CMOS camera. Have we seen multiple 1/3" CMOS chips before? Is it fair to assume that this camera's image quality will be better than the V1, but poorer than the XDCAM EX?

?

Somewhere, I saw a zoom in picture of this camera with a 6 Megapixel label near the lens. That's kinda weird on a camera in this market segment because the photosites are smaller. So, unless we see Sony literature reading "three 1/3 sensors", we should just wait. I'll assume its one RGB Bayer sensor.

What I'd like to see is one of those DSLR sensors in a camcorder.

I think you may be confusing these new cameras mentioned on the European site
http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowContent.action?BIZ_SESSIONID=4J3kG42FJ2CWTXr0y0Yth13l7gzJ02x6LQDJ1dpkFnpfJ5BpHptm!-425583333&contentId=1187079485470&site=biz_en_GB
With this camera
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=102492
which looks like a repackaged HC7 in shoulder mount which of course would have a 6Megapixel still feature.

Ron Evans

That has non-interchangeable lens.

Just some idle speculation / Friday afternoon time-wasting:

I guess it starts when Sony says "HDMI output – uncompressed HD signal and embedded audio can be output to HDMI-compatible devices." I wonder what that really means?

Thoughts anyone?

It would be great to connect this to one of the much anticipated Convergent Design Flash XDR recorders (yes, I know the 1.0 version is SDI only, but there is a $400 adapter).

Wouldn't it be wonderful If Sony would sell just the Body, so you could combine it with a good quality compact 35mm adapter, one with flip and minimal light loss like the Mini35 or even the new Letus Extreme for the more budget conscious. I hear that only takes half a stop.

Lens-wise, one of the new RED cine zooms would be nice (or both) or some used cine primes or even just some manual 35mm still lenses.

Combine this with a moderately-priced set of rails, a FF and mattebox from someone like Cavision.

To me this would be a really great cinema-look set-up

1. The uncomprssed feed from the Sony body. Probably looking at $4,500
2. Great storage option from Convergent, admittedly @ $5,400
3. $1,200 - $5,500 for a good 35MM adapter
4. $6,500 for the 18-50mm RED zoom, as an example, as it is the least $.
5. $1,500 for rails, MB and FF

Should be a really high quality, compact and reliable rig. I've used 35mm adapters before, and struggled with the overall length, back focus etc. I'd like something I could really 'run and gun' with cinema-style, like it was one of those shoulder-mounted 35mm Arris.

Not intended to be a budget system, and it will come it at about the cost of a RED body.

Thoughts on whether this would be a tempting set-up, or are there other combos out ther that would deliver the same or better for less $$$.

Maybe the pocket RED will fill this gap

Bypass the HDV codec via HDMI and you have a winner. When the IOHD comes out, that'll be key, along with a 35mm lens and adaptor.

heath

...Or at least the mock ups, which were in a glass case at the IOV show in Coventry and so couldn't be handled.

Interestingly, one of the Sony guys said that the mount is "probably" the same mount as used on the JVC GY-HDxxx range, so all lenses and adaptors which fit that cam will fit these (as I say, the camera couldn't be touched so I couldn't confirm this, although they had a display of lenses in the cabinet with the cameras, and one of those was the stock fujinon which you get with the JVC).

Also the big shoulder camera has HD-SDI and 4 channel audio, whereas the small one doesn't. They are both 3 chip, the shoulder held camera will take both large and small tapes, also the UK "guestimate" price is around £5K for the shoulder mounted and probably under £4K for the smaller camera.

Oh yes, and they had the EX there too, but I couldn't get my hands on it as too many people were queueing up... all I can say is it looked nice from a distance

edit: oh yes, they didn't appear to have names yet, either (not as far as I can tell) so thats why I refer to them as the big shoulder camera and the small one...

Thanks for that info Paul. Was there any indication of when these two cams would be available in the UK?

The handheld camera was 4th Quarter 2007, the Shoulder held (I think) was 1st quarter 2008.

I really wished these cams had the Exmor chips instead of ClearVid. But who knows...