Okay, I got confirmation from expert Graeme Nattress: 60i streams are needed to put 23.98 fps signals to tape. HDCAM can handle native 24p, but not minidv.

Heath

Okay. I talked with my local dealer and this is what he said. They made the camera recording switchable to record 1080i or 1080p. Going to tape is a 60i stream like Robert said. The CF module has a label mark that says "Progressive" . The module can record 1080p/24 or 1080p/30 in m2t.

That's how I read it too. Since Apple just released V1 24p/25p/30p support today -- the tape version of 24p is now very useful. After a year of waiting!!! Of course, still no Media Composer and Xpes Pro HD support.

The CF card version will work just like the EX1. True 24p/25p/30p written to the card. Thus, it could be like 24pn.

However, I haven't seen anything that shows longer recording times for 24p! Which could mean 24p is carried within 30fps. (4 frames converted to 5 frames using a 2-3 cadence.) The 6 unwanted frames every second can be flagged and dropped during capture. Or, captured and ignored during editing.

PS: How is Canon's 25F recorded to tape? It doesn't use 2-3 pulldown.

Okay, I got confirmation from expert Graeme Nattress: 60i streams are needed to put 23.98 fps signals to tape. HDCAM can handle native 24p, but not minidv.

Heath

Wow. How cool would it be to have that guy on speed dial. You're now officially cool Heath.

Joel,
Just so we're all clear here:
That's talking about 24p mode. Heath was referring to 24pn mode. The "n" stands for native. If you shoot the HVX200 in 24pn mode, you're only getting 24 progressive frames of data written to the card per second. That's about as true of a 24p as 24p(n) gets.

As far as I understand it, the HDV specifications dictate that there HAS TO BE 60 interlaced frames of data written to tape every second. This is why JVC broke with the HDV consortium guidelines and invented their own flavor of HDV they call "ProHD". Their 720p24 format is proprietary (and pretty good).

By no means am I an expert, I just read a lot. The previous paragraphs are what I've gathered from my readings in the past. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here. I very well could be.

I have never heard of 24Pn, only 24Pa. The best description of the way it works is from Dvfilm.com. The following excerpt explains how the HVX200 accomplishes both 1080 24p and 720 24p:

"1080/24PA (Advanced, or 2:3:3:2 Pulldown)

The Panasonic HVX200 can record 1920 x 1080 at 24P (actually 23.976), with 2:3:3:2 (Advanced) pulldown, and this is the recommended recording mode for transfer to film.

The movie is stored on the P2 card as a 1920 x 1080i MXF file, at 29.97 frames/sec for compatibility with standard HD editing systems such as FCP-HD and Avid Express Pro HD.

To play back the .mxf files in DVFilm Maker, drag the file into Maker and it will appear in the playback window.

To remove the pulldown for editing at 24P and convert the .mxf file into a 24P Quicktime or AVI,

1. Drag the .mxf file from the P2 card virtual drive into DVFilm Maker.

2. Special playback controls will appear. Note the player does not play back audio.

3. To convert to 24P, select 24P Edit options, remove 2:3:3:2 pulldown
and 23.976 fps exact. In Advanced Options, choose User Selects Output Folder
and browse for a folder on your disk drive. Also select "Always Make Quicktime" if you
want Quicktime format (otherwise an AVI will be created). Other options may be required,
see "Choosing a Codec" below.

4. Close the 24P Edit options box if required and hit Start. When finished, use File->SaveAs.


5. Clips can also be batch converted by dragging them into the batch window.

720/24P or 720/25P recording mode


Maker will also process the 1280 x 720 frame size. In this case, no pulldown removal is required, Maker is just used to convert to Quicktime or AVI format, and if required, recompress to a different codec.

To convert the .mxf file into a Quicktime or AVI,

1. Drag the .mxf file from the P2 card virtual drive into DVFilm Maker.

2. Special playback controls will appear. Note the player does not play back audio.

3. Select "Deinterlace" and then UNselect it, to turn off all processing of the video.

4. Select Advanced Options.

5. To convert to Avid or Apple Quicktime format choose "Always Make Quicktime."
Other options may be required, see "Choosing a Codec" below.

6. Close the Advanced options box if required and hit Start. When finished, use File->SaveAs.


7. Clips can also be batch converted by dragging them into the batch window."

Here it is stated again in the user manual:
"DVCPRO HD Recording onto a P2 Card
The AG-HVX200 is the compact camera-recorder to offer 1080/24p (over 60i)
shooting. You can also select 1080/60i, 1080/30p, 720/60p, 720/30p, or 720/24p
in HD. The multi-codec lets you choose either DVCPRO 50, DVCPRO, or DV format
for SD (480i) recording"



I'm not making a case for or against the HVX200. It was posted earlier that the HVX200 records 1080 24p with no pulldown to the P2 card. I haven't found any documentation that supports anything other than the HVX200 accomplish pulldown in camera to get it done. This from Panasonic documentation and other websites such as I referenced. There certainly could be modes that I am not aware of, but I haven't found this one.

I'm not saying that's bad, but other than the fact that the HVX200 is putting the video on a P2 card, the process it uses to achieve 1080 24p is not unique among cameras under the 15k price tag that the writer made reference to. In fact, it seems very similar to the JVC HD series process.

Being we are all trying to learn the facts, the little details can be important. And as I say that, if one of the HVX200 wizards has a better explanation, or can explain where I am misguided I would welcome that info. I really admire this camera and want to understand all of this stuff.

If the HVX200 records 1080 24p at full resolution, to tape or P2, I will buy one. But so far, I haven't found that to be the case.

Only in 720p (and maybe 480p), you can use 24pn (native), no pulldown. You can fit around 40 minutes of 720p 24pn on two 4 gb cards. Maybe two 8 gb, I forget. Whichever was the max when the HVX shipped.

For my film Hellevator (http://www.myspace.com/hellevatorfilm), we used the HPX500 with four 16 gb P2 cards. We got around 170 minutes in 720p 24pn.

I know Graeme well; he has helped me out a lot. Most recently, he aided me in an article for Videomaker about the State of Imaging (CCDs, CMOS, etc.). He and I speak almost daily.

Here's a picture of Rob Lohman, Graeme and I (I'm first, Rob's second, Graeme's third, left to right) at NAB 07. I've lost about 20+ lbs. since then, btw. :-)

heath

ps-Hope I'm cool!

I'm not saying that's bad, but other than the fact that the HVX200 is putting the video on a P2 card, the process it uses to achieve 1080 24p is not unique among cameras under the 15k price tag that the writer made reference to. In fact, it seems very similar to the JVC HD series process.

Being we are all trying to learn the facts, the little details can be important. And as I say that, if one of the HVX200 wizards has a better explanation, or can explain where I am misguided I would welcome that info. I really admire this camera and want to understand all of this stuff.

If the HVX200 records 1080 24p at full resolution, to tape or P2, I will buy one. But so far, I haven't found that to be the case.

There's no quality difference between 1080/24PA and (if it were to exist) 1080/24P native. It's just a matter of removing some extra frames.
Applications like DVFilm Maker, RayMaker, and plugins like Raylight for Vegas can remove the pulldown without any recompression or loss of quality, they simply skip over the redundant frames.

There's no quality difference between 1080/24PA and (if it were to exist) 1080/24P native. It's just a matter of removing some extra frames.
Applications like DVFilm Maker, RayMaker, and plugins like Raylight for Vegas can remove the pulldown without any recompression or loss of quality, they simply skip over the redundant frames.


The only thing I was pointing out, is that the HVX200 performs pulldown to achieve 1080 24p... not that the image quality suffers because of it. It is simply the process that it uses to produce 1080 24p.

This new camera from Sony, appears to operate in a very similar way to the HVX200.

That's all.

Marcus is the man; he owns www.dvfilm.com and I highly, highly recommend his software. I've used DVFilm Maker a lot. I reviewed his "Shooting Digital" book here (http://www.dvinfo.net/articles/filmlook/mcknight1.php).

Heath

The only thing I was pointing out, is that the HVX200 performs pulldown to achieve 1080 24p... not that the image quality suffers because of it. It is simply the process that it uses to produce 1080 24p.




But that's not an accurate statement. Rather it acquires 1080 at "true" 24p and in order to make it compatible with older editing systems, it then adds pulldown to convert it to 60i. But removing the pulldown restores the original 24P.

But that's not an accurate statement. Rather it acquires 1080 at "true" 24p and in order to make it compatible with older editing systems, it then adds pulldown to convert it to 60i. But removing the pulldown restores the original 24P.

Nevermind... I see it. It starts with 1080 60p Native. All other streams are derived from that. Final output depends on medium and compression...

Thanks.

Perhaps, but many news outlets won't even consider using cameras with 1/3 sensors. They want 2/3 because of the wide variety of scenarios the cameras have to operate in with available light.

Have to say, those are some good looking cameras and are taking the HDV format much further than I would have imagined.

-gb-

I understand that the ABC affliate here in Tampa, Florida is looking to supply their news photographers with JVC 250s. I guess cheap high definition access shoots down the 2/3rd inch sensor theory.

Love the options on the Z7! I'm curious, with the CF unit on the back of the Z7, where does the battery fit?

Adam,
I wondered the same thing myself.

It starts with 1080 60p Native. All other streams are derived from that. Thanks.


Another untrue statement. Unfortunately Panasonic is guilty on this one too so I understand everyone's confusion. When the camera is shooting 24P it really is sampling the sensor at 24P. A simple experiment proves this is true. At 24P with the shutter speed set high (around 1/250 for example) you pan over an object rapidly, and then look at the results frame by frame. If it was converting 60P to 24P you would see either blended frames or slightly uneven steps. You don't. It's perfectly even and clean, because it's sampling at 24P just as it should.

Marcus, Joel, Heath, anyone else:
It seems that we're gotten off the topic of discussing the new Sony cams and have gotten into the nuts and bolts of understanding how different camera systems handle the recording of 24p to their various media. Should we create a new thread to discuss this further and leave this thread to it's intended purpose?
If you guys agree, then I'll start the thread. I would like to continue this discussion, but I'm not sure the Z7/S270 thread is the right place to do so.

I understand that the ABC affliate here in Tampa, Florida is looking to supply their news photographers with JVC 250s. I guess cheap high definition access shoots down the 2/3rd inch sensor theory.
All Scripps stations have gone HD with the JVC HD250. I used to work at WPTV, and a friend of mine told me they're starting to get them. Exciting! WPTV is the first to broadcast in HD in Florida, but now others are.

heath

Start it here (http://dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=34). Leave a link and we'll all join up. But I feel this relates to the cameras.

heath

Marcus, Joel, Heath, anyone else:
It seems that we're gotten off the topic of discussing the new Sony cams and have gotten into the nuts and bolts of understanding how different camera systems handle the recording of 24p to their various media. Should we create a new thread to discuss this further and leave this thread to it's intended purpose?
If you guys agree, then I'll start the thread. I would like to continue this discussion, but I'm not sure the Z7/S270 thread is the right place to do so.

Ok guys, I've started the geeky technical debate/discussion about 24p here


See you there. I have some questions.

Love the options on the Z7! I'm curious, with the CF unit on the back of the Z7, where does the battery fit?

If you look at mikko wilson's pic on the link in the first page, there's pics showing the battery in the typical place like the Z1/V1, I assume the CF recorder goes over it somehow. Maybe the battery is entirely enclosed like the Canon A1.

New questions. The price of the Z7 is comparable to the XDCAM EX, any guesses on how it compares picturewise, particularly low light? Any guesses on street price?

I think it goes where the handle on the right side is. BIZARRE! Hope they take the F970s!

heath

It sounds like a step forward. I'm definitely interested.

I get the idea that both camcorders can record to tape AND/OR Compact Flash Cards so, if true that "tape is dead," then flash memory lives (although I don't think "tape is dead," and in fact now that Sony says it can put 1080p onto tape it might help keep tape as a viable format.

In fact Sony's info says that with a special unit that recordings can be done on both tape and disk at the same time. So...no problem.

How, though, I wonder, do these new products fit in with the also newly announced (and not yet released) Sony PMW-EX1 ?

So are the drawbacks of HDV: 1) it's GOP and not so precise for editing...is this significant? and 2) it needs to be compressed because it's data rate is not so fast?

..........both camcorders can record to tape AND/OR Compact Flash Cards so, if true that "tape is dead," then flash memory lives
"Tape is dead" has been said for a while, and just has not happened yet. I like to think of "tape" as the older partner in a business, experienced, but looking to retirement, and in the process of handing over to his much younger partner. Increasingly, he will spend more time on the golf course, but the business is stronger with both of them than with either of them singly. And all the time, the young "solid state" becomes more capable.

The CF/tape hybrid I see as an excellent step at the moment.
How, though, I wonder, do these new products fit in with the also newly announced (and not yet released) Sony PMW-EX1 ?
I suspect they are aimed at the lower end of the pro market, the EX a bit higher, and to fit in as a B camera to other HD-XDCAM.
So are the drawbacks of HDV: 1) it's GOP and not so precise for editing...is this significant? and 2) it needs to be compressed because it's data rate is not so fast?
It should be precise for editing, but is likely to need more computing power to handle it, or transcoding for editing ease.

I think it goes where the handle on the right side is. BIZARRE! Hope they take the F970s!

heath

Actually, Heath, I think the CF recorder fits OVER the battery... take a look at this review on a German site (Google translated) -- http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.film-tv-video.de%2Fnewsdetail%2BM5540bdba1aa.html%3F%26tx_ttnews%255Bday%255D%3D14%26tx_ttnews%255Bmonth%255 D%3D11%26tx_ttnews%255Byear%255D%3D2007&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

The editors seem to imply that the CF recorder slips over the battery itself. And I THINK.... if I can decipher the somewhat random translation... they're saying you could set up the tape to record Standard Definition while simultaneously recording High Definition to the CF card, or vice-versa. I could imagine shooting scenarios where that might be useful.

Some nice close ups of the camera there, too.

Also, if you go to the second page of the Sony.biz.net link above, you'll see the NPF970s are listed as an accessory for the Z7.

I really like this compact modular concept. In theory, if Sony continues down this path, you could buy a Z7 now, then maybe in a few years, maybe buy a 1/3" XDCAM recorder back, and reuse your lens and CF recorder. Or you can use the CF recorder as a standalone deck. I see Sony's already talking about a second, wider angle lens for these cameras coming out in June. This strikes me as a much better way to go than screw-on wide angle adaptors.

Looking better and better.

Ignore. I didn't see the move...

One of the most interesting things to me is the claim of being able to use the new Sony alpha lenses from the Sony DSLR line, most notably the Sony Alpha 700. That DSLR uses the same EXMOR sensor that is in the EX1.

"Using a special adaptor, users can also attach the α lens series designed for Sony’s consumer digital SLR still cameras."

I am curious how much they will hurt us with the cost of the adapter though.

I really like this compact modular concept.
Yes, I agree, and it's got me wondering if the CF recorder could be used with existing cameras like the DSR450. That would be a cheap way to get into tapeless workflows now, until HD working was needed.

It also gets me wondering if they may do a similar device using SxS?

I wonder if it will have the rotating grip that the XDCam EX does.
I think that's a VERY practical design feature.

I wonder if it will have the rotating grip that the XDCam EX does.
I think that's a VERY practical design feature.

Yes, it will. The 2 cameras share a couple of new and cool features. One thing that makes me wonder is why the EX1 (which is positioned a bit higher, after all) doesn't have the higher resolution EVF that the Z7 has.

Yes, I agree, and it's got me wondering if the CF recorder could be used with existing cameras like the DSR450. That would be a cheap way to get into tapeless workflows now, until HD working was needed.

It also gets me wondering if they may do a similar device using SxS?

It would be great if Sony takes this concept one step further and makes the camera head/sensor array and recorder into separate, modular units, like the DXC-D35 DVCAM camera, or the SI Mini. Then you could mix and match lens, sensors, recording codec and media depending on your budget and what the job required.

I know this is a new age and 1/3" chips are the new 2/3" chips and all, but I think $11,000 for a 1/3" chip HDV camera seems expensive.

I wonder why Sony did not build this camera around the 1/2" EX chips?

Then the price might seem more in line.

Maybe it is too close to the XDCAM 335.

I know this is a new age and 1/3" chips are the new 2/3" chips and all, but I think $11,000 for a 1/3" chip HDV camera seems expensive.

I agree. It's the $6000 handheld Z7 that's really interesting to me. I bet Sony sells way more of the Z7 than they do its shoulder-mount brother.

I know this is a new age and 1/3" chips are the new 2/3" chips and all, but I think $11,000 for a 1/3" chip HDV camera seems expensive.

I wonder why Sony did not build this camera around the 1/2" EX chips?

Then the price might seem more in line.

Maybe it is too close to the XDCAM 335.

The $10500.00 (Probably $9,000 street) shoulder mount camera has HDSSDI out which commands a premium. Also, that camera is aimed at the JVC 250, (Around the 10-12k street, HDSDI) which is being standardized in several TV stations and some networks like ABC Mr. McKnight said that all of the Scripps TV stations are buying 1/3 inch JVC's for HD. So it actually will be $2,000 cheaper than comparable cameras that are aimed at midmarket TV stations migrating to HD.

I agree. It's the $6000 handheld Z7 that's really interesting to me. I bet Sony sells way more of the Z7 than they do its shoulder-mount brother.

I don't doubt you're proabably right, but funnily enough my preference goes with a shoulder mount. Having used a Z1 for the last few years I've been increasingly fed up with the weight, the poor balance and the front heavy feel, the fiddliness of certain controls, menus etc...
the weight issue is further compounded if you add matte boxes, filters, mics, radio receivers etc... the whole lot gets pretty hard to hold steady for any length of time.

cheers
Gareth

Prior to launch? hmmm... sounds big.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/14/sony-unveils-new-high-end-pro-hdv-camcorders/

Thank your for your reply (and insightful metaphors) David.

The z7 - in my price range - has become more appealing as I think about it.

An adapter that lets you use Sony lens also is very appealing. But does this meanthat Canon and/or Nikon lens could also be used (or do the chips and other features have to be the same?).

I got the idea that this is already being done with the JVC models, using DSLR lens...gosh that could make for some great pics, no?

Can't wait to hear about the hands-on reviews.

Does anyone know how focusing would work with a DSLR lens on this cam? Could it do auto focus? Or how about zoom with a DSLR lens? It seems like the mechanics of a video lens are different from a DLSR lens... if focus would have to manual, it wouldn't be all that bad, but I'm not familiar with Sony's DSLR alpha lenses.

Adam you bring up a good point.

There is no motorized zoom servo on a DSLR lens, so in many ways they are impractical for "video" work.

They would be fine for "film" type work where prime lenses are often used and focal lengths are chosen for specific reasons with zooming being accomplished by camera movement rather than zoom.

They would also need to have the video camera pick up the f-stop from the lens electronically because the DSLR lenses often do not have an aperature ring.

People use photographic lenses with the Redrock Micro and others, all the time.

Heath

Thanks for the responses about the DSLR lens use. This is a great feature, especially since I'm also a photographer with many more lenses than I need. My fisheye lens could be pretty fun, as long as I can remove the shotgun mic so that isn't in view.

The $10500.00 (Probably $9,000 street) shoulder mount camera has HDSSDI out which commands a premium. Also, that camera is aimed at the JVC 250.
Not really. It is aimed at those who will spend $10K and want 1080i. That means CBS and NBC. ABC and ESPN and NASA and Europe all want 50p/60p.

Not really. It is aimed at those who will spend $10K and want 1080i. That means CBS and NBC. ABC and ESPN and NASA and Europe all want 50p/60p.

Steve,

I have great respect and I normally 98% of the time agree with you. We're probably both right and wrong. But, I could see a small to midlevel TV station buying the shoulder mount version. (I keep forgetting the Model number).

The flexibility of the camera with1080i, 1080p/24/30 does fit into a lot of categories.

BTW OT:, an affiliate is not obligated to broadcast a networks signal in that same format. For example, KTRK, an ABC affiliate here, also a Disney owned station, uses 1080i cameras and broadcasts 1080/60i even though they're receiving 720p from ABC, which is also owned by Disney. Pretty funny how that works. So they're cross converting the signal. I just learned this recently. Remember the affiliates have the right to local airwaves. So, a group of TV station affiliates say owned by Scripps might have contracts with different networks and in the end could care less what the networks do. After all, it is their money. And of course they save money by standardizing across all of their owned TV stations.


Sorry to go OT again: I know that this is petty:

Also, what part of NASA is going 60p? I work contract for Jacobs Engineering on Engineering and Science Group Contract for NASA here at the Johnson Space Center. And everything I'm aware of is 60i. I pretty sure that includes Langley Research Center, Marshall Space Flight, Stennis Space Center, Cape Canveral, and Ames Research.

I'm not saying you're wrong, that this is new news to me. I certainly don't know everything. But, if you have some info, let me know because I work for a NASA contractor who would need to know. Before we end up in a Disney like scenario.

But, I'm starting to like the concept of this camera. Very flexible indeed.

Steve, Email me if you have response so I don't hijack the thread.


Cheers.

All Scripps TV stations (mostly ABC with one or two NBC affiliates) are going HDV with the HD250 in 720p60 mode.

My friend's station uses a couple of shoulder-mount DVCPRO 50 cameras, along with many more Sony Z1u's and DVX100's.

heath

Yea I saw that you mentioned in apost somewhere else that Scripps was going JVC 250. I have a JVC 100 that I'm about to sell. Either the Z7 or the XDCAM EX to replace it. It was hard working the past year convincing clients that 720p to 1080i looks fine. With these cameras can let my client pick the format.

It seems like with these 2 HDV cameras and the XDCAM EX, cameras are becoming more and more flexible to shoot in in either format, at a wide variety of framerates.

To think, in early 2003, all we had was a couple of hand-held pro DV cameras from Canon, JVC, Panasonic and Sony (with the then-new DVX100 being arguably the best). By September 2003, HDV was announced, based on the JVC HD10, and the rest is history.

I think HDV and 24p have really revolutionized the sub-$10,000 camera market, and now P2/DVCPRO HD.

Heath

Actually, Heath, I think the CF recorder fits OVER the battery...

The editors seem to imply that the CF recorder slips over the battery itself. And I THINK.... if I can decipher the somewhat random translation... they're saying you could set up the tape to record Standard Definition while simultaneously recording High Definition to the CF card, or vice-versa. I could imagine shooting scenarios where that might be useful.

... the modular CF recorder attaches w/ a simple latch to the back of the camera.

The 970 battery is internal like the XHA1.

Changing batteries requires first removing the CF recorder (which I dropped once, and no one got alarmed...)

My understanding is that if you wanted, the CF module could be attached via a cable off the camera

But, I'm starting to like the concept of this camera. Very flexible indeed.
I too am warming to the S270. I think the $10K price blew my mind for a few days. It's 2X - 3X more than the $3000-$4000 camcorders like the VX1000/VX2000. Which means it may be aimed more at institutions rather than at individuals. I can't afford a $10K camcorder and I suspect many who have bought Sony DV and HDV camcorders can't either.

A TV station making the move to HD that's used to spending $25K will find these VERY cheap. They are not going to buy an ergonomic mess like the Canon. P2 is crazy IMHO. That leaves a choice between JVC and Sony at $10K. Now both offer shoulder-cams that ENG requires.

What's interesting is that -- in HDV -- JVC and Sony do not compete on format. JVC does only 720p50/60 and Sony only 1080i50/60. (Both do 24p.) I think this was an original understanding when they did HDV together.

For the Indy filmmaker, the interchangable lens will be neat. Although I would think they would want the 1920x1080 rez and low-light sensitivity the EX1 offers. However, DV tape is both really cheap and offers really simple workflows. So maybe things balance out.

However, given multitude of claims than HDV doesn't handle fast motion well -- something I have not experienced -- Sony needs to assure buyers that the HDV codec is much improved over the Z1.

These cameras seem like strange hacks to me. Sorry, not meant to be inflammatory, but Sony starts on the right track with the EX1, and then they seem to take a couple of steps back with these cross-breeds.

"Let's give these S270's a professional form factor and removable lenses, but then crippled them with small chips, and smoosh the image through crappy HDV compression. We've got so many models out, the target audience probably won't realize that we're capable of delivering a 1/2" chip, full resolution, and better compression at this price point!"

What's interesting is that -- in HDV -- JVC and Sony do not compete on format. JVC does only 720p50/60 and Sony only 1080i50/60. (Both do 24p.) I think this was an original understanding when they did HDV together.

Sony needs to assure buyers that the HDV codec is much improved over the Z1.


That is interesting. I didn't knowthat. JVC I guess had an agreement to let HDV2 go to Sony and I guess Canon and kept HDV1 for themselves.

I bought my JVC 100u because the Cineframe on Z1 really did look really crappy to me. I've heard good things about the V1U from guys like yourself so that has built up some confidence in my view of Sony HDV. Now I am really going to sell my HD 100 after nearly 2 years of a very good and sometime very bad experience.

Like most people , until I get some hands-on demos, I'm cannot decide between the Z7 and the EX1.
Cheers.

These cameras seem like strange hacks to me. Sorry, not meant to be inflammatory, but Sony starts on the right track with the EX1, and then they seem to take a couple of steps back with these cross-breeds.

"Let's give these S270's a professional form factor and removable lenses, but then crippled them with small chips, and smoosh the image through crappy HDV compression. We've got so many models out, the target audience probably won't realize that we're capable of delivering a 1/2" chip, full resolution, and better compression at this price point!"Well the cams were designed to be HDV cams - they werent designed to be XDCAMs. Sony has a product lineup and these cams were designed to fit into that lineup. Its not a matter of saying "well theyre not as good as the EX1". The EX1 is a different codec, higher price point etc and Sony are trying to give everyone options as to what they buy.

I wouldnt disparage the 1/3in Exmor sensors as "crippling" a camera until you've read/seen their performance. These are the same sensor types as the EX1, just a little smaller. They days of taking the attitude of "if it's not got a 2/3in or 1/2in sensor it must be hopeless" are over. Advances in sensor design, (particularly CMOS sensor design), signal-to-noise ratios, and digital signal processing have meant that sensors of a smaller size can now have amazing performance.
As for anecdotal evidence of this - at least one person who's played with a Z7 says that its the best lowlight performance of any HDV cam he's ever used.

As for the price point, the Z7 (for eg) will i'm sure be available on the street at a price thats low enough to appeal to people who maybe were considering an EX1. Dont treat the MSRP as the real price - it won't be.

just my thoughts.