The exmor chips are explained here, and they are CMOS. They're in Sony DSLRs, and I think there is a version of one, if not the same chip, in the new Nikon DSLRs (D3 and D300):

http://photography.suite101.com/article.cfm/sonys_photo_enthusiast_dslr

heath

I'm talking about the Exmors currently in the EX1. That's what's needed for these models.

Jack,

I hear ya, but I'm wondering if they can take those sensors and adapt them for video use. I'm pleased, no matter what, that the sensors are 1/2 inch.

heath

Jack,

I hear ya, but I'm wondering if they can take those sensors and adapt them for video use. I'm pleased, no matter what, that the sensors are 1/2 inch.

heath

I'm sorry, Heath. I'm confused. Which camera(s) are we talking about? The SLR, or the new Sony video cameras (which I'm pretty sure are listed as 1/3" CMOS, not 1/2".)

Or did I miss a design change somewhere?

The EX is 1/2"; I hear the new DLSR's CMOS chip is incredible and like Jack, I would love to see a video camera version.

heath

If Sony goes more in-depth into the 4k and above market, there's no doubt that a 4K cam from Sony might come soon with an adapted version of the Exmors.

Oh, and just in case you got confused when I said Exmor in the EX1, here's a picture that might clear that up: http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070921/sony_60.jpg

From the article: http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070921/sony.htm (Japanese)

I find it a bit awkward that the handheld HDV camera has an interchangeable lens but the EX1 doesn’t unless Sony is also going to show an EX2 soon.

Since the EX1 cost around 7,000 to 7,500 dollars with 2 cards, I would estimate the HDV model at 5,000 to 5,500 dollars. The Z1u was around 5,500 when it first came out.

Now where is Canon and Panasonic when you need them? It’s their turn to show us new cameras and they better do it quick because Sony is about to get a lot of preorders.

The EX is a whole different beast - the broadcast ENG style lens on that baby actually takes up most of the camera body - the sensors and electronics only account for the last 2 - 3 inches of the camera body. Hence interchangeable would not be possible as much of the lens mechanics are built structually into the body of the camera.

Has Sony announced these two HDV cameras in the US yet? If not, wow...they announced the V1e in September last year, then the V1u in US by October or so.

heath

Any news about the pricing?

Here is some more info.

http://www.sonybiz.net/res/attachment/file/47/1187079494747.pdf

Great -- thanks for that link, Hans. I haven't seen that one before now.

After once again shooting on the V1u, and loving it, I'm eagerly anticipating a Sony USA announcement of these cameras!

Heath

I wonder if there will be a "consumer version" of the handheld cam, maybe with a fixed lens?

That would be nice.

Wouldn't that be the FX7?

heath

No. this cam has 3 x 1/3 CMOS chip

FX7 has 3 x 1/4 CMOS chip

True. I wonder how the FX7 is selling; plus, is the FX1 gone? I saw the used price for an FX1 went up a couple of months ago.

heath

And still, no model #s yet.

I just read this StudioDaily article about these cams.
http://studiodaily.com/main/news/8768.html

It's apears the full sized shoulder mounted one is the Sony HVR-S270U. It has 3 1/3-inch Clearvid CMOS chips with Exmor. It's slated to be priced around $10,500 (with 12x lens) and has an optional Compact Flash recorder that attaches to the side of the camera.

The smaller version is the Sony HVR-Z7U. It's the exact same chip set, but in a smaller form factor and it takes the same batteries as the Z1/V1. It's slated to come in around $6,850 with lens.

The article referenced at the top of this post goes into more detail.

The image of the Z7U in the StudioDaily article is very interesting. Is that a hard drive on the backside of the camera?

I didn't notice that before. CF card drive maybe?

Yep. Here is the official news: http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowContent.action?site=biz_en_GB&contentId=1193315635243

that is for the Europe version though...

No surprise that's the Z7, much like the FX7. Very cool, though I thought it would be a V2. But my dreams of a new Z1 are here!

heath

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Z7 has an interchangeable lens, too, right? It's not clear in the article.

Heath

Heath,
As far as I know, the Z7 is the exact same camera as the larger S270, but in a smaller form factor and it only takes mini dv tapes where the larger cam takes full sized dv tapes.
So yes, it does have interchangable lenses.

And for those still unclear on the CF card recorder, unlike the Convergent Design HD-SDI CF recorder, it records HDV or DV to the card. But you can connect one of those HD-SDI recorders to the camera to get full raster 1920x1080.

Very exciting. Where's the USA NTSC version?

mmmmm.... tape AND flash..... DROOOLLLLL!

Now this is interesting. I wonder if the exmor technology is good enough to put 1/3 cmos on par with 1/3 ccd as far as lowlight goes. I'm really satisfied with my canon A1 but if this is a really solid product I might use a z7 on my feature next summer. Gotta love options!

Gotta love Sony though... I mean they announce the EX1 which has everyone talking/drooling but it takes SxS cards which aren't exactly a standard yet and it has a (pretty good by all accounts) fixed lens. Then they turn around and announce the Z7 that has the option of interchangeable lenses and the use of industry standard CF cards.
Why can't they combine the best of both worlds and make and EX2 with interchangeable lenses that uses CF cards? Are the SxS cards that much faster? Is there something about the XDCam codecs that make using CF cards impossible?

If anyone wants to take a look at the detailed specs...

use this link

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sony.jp%2FCorporateCruise%2FPress%2F200711%2F07-1114%2F&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

It will open the Sony Japan page for these cameras and translate most of it. It even has shipping dates for somewhere.

I just read this StudioDaily article about these cams.
http://studiodaily.com/main/news/8768.html

It's apears the full sized shoulder mounted one is the Sony HVR-S270U. It has 3 1/3-inch Clearvid CMOS chips with Exmor. It's slated to be priced around $10,500 (with 12x lens) and has an optional Compact Flash recorder that attaches to the side of the camera.

The smaller version is the Sony HVR-Z7U. It's the exact same chip set, but in a smaller form factor and it takes the same batteries as the Z1/V1. It's slated to come in around $6,850 with lens.

The article referenced at the top of this post goes into more detail.

Ethan:

Are those the guesstimated MSRPs?

You'd have to ask StudioDaily, that's where I got this info.

Around $11,000 or so for the shoulder mount, $7,000 or so for the Z7u.

Heath

http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/ShowContent.action?site=biz_en_GB&contentId=1193315635243

From Sony: (Obviously 24p for U.S.)

"The camcorders offer 1080/50i and 25p native progressive recording capabilities. The 3 ClearVid CMOS Sensor system and EIP technology create true 1080p images, which can then be recorded as progressive signals by the HVR-Z7E and HVR-S270E camcorders in the HDV format. The progressive HDV streams can be output from an i.LINK connector and used for progressive editing with compatible NLE software.


The HVR-Z7E and HVR-S270E can switch between 1080p, 1080i in the HDV format, DVCAM, and DV recording, and both can down-convert material from HD to SD, and output the video signals through its i.LINK interface and other SD output connectors"

So, this camera will record 1080p and 1080i to tape or CF??

That is very flexible. Although highly compressed. Since it is HDV2 it will be 1440x1080 not like 35mbit 1920x1080 from the EX.

All in all this is a format most people could use right out of the box.

[
That is very flexible. Although highly compressed. Since it is HDV2 it will be 1440x1080 not like 35mbit 1920x1080 from the EX.

If the HDMI output works the way it does on the V1, you could also get uncompressed 1920 x 1080 video from the HDMI port. (Does anyone know if the audio over HDMI is likely to be compressed or uncompressed?)

Now if Convergent Designs would just make an HDMI version of their flash recorder, you could have a 1920x1080 flash master, and 2 HDV backups (one on CF, one on tape). Instantaneous triple redundancy!!!!!

It's like the V1u, DVX100, HVX200, etc.: it can record in both interlace and progressive. Keep in mind, with the exception of the HVX200, in the sub-$15,000 category, all 24p cameras are packaging that 24p signal in a 60i stream via the 2:3 pulldown.

The HVX200 will record in 720p 24pn (native), no pulldown. I did a short film recently in that setting on the HPX500.

Heath

Is the HDV on the card being recorded as full progressive frames?

Lets say you're recording 1080P to both card and tape at the same time (at 24 or 25 fps).. currently, recording HDV to tape in this manner will mean it'll be done with 3:2 pulldown (in a 60i or 50i stream). No surprise - same deal over HD-SDI.

However, if it's recording to flash cards as well at real time, well, would it/could it record as true progressive frames (a la HVX-200) so it wouldn't require that extra step of removing the pulldown once on the computer?

It's like the V1u, DVX100, HVX200, etc.: it can record in both interlace and progressive. Keep in mind, with the exception of the HVX200, in the sub-$15,000 category, all 24p cameras are packaging that 24p signal in a 60i stream via the 2:3 pulldown.

The HVX200 will record in 720p 24pn (native), no pulldown. I did a short film recently in that setting on the HPX500.

Heath

That doen't seem an accurate statement. The HVX200 actually does the same thing. Here is the excerpt from the HVX200 documentaion from the panasonic website:

"HD/SD Multi-Format Recording
The AG-HVX200 is the world's first*1 compact camera to offer
1080/24p shooting*

2. It can record onto a P2 card in 1080/60i or
720/60p HD, and it's compatible with the SD (480i) format currently
used in TV broadcasting. The multi-codec system lets you record in
DVCPRO 50, DVCPRO and DV.*3

*1: As of November 2005, according to a Panasonic survey
*2: In 1080/24p, Images are recorded in 60i by 2:3 pull-down.
*3: The P2 card can be used for recording video in any codec. Mini DV tape can record video in the DV format. Both 16:9 and 4:3 aspect ratios are supported in SD, 16:9 only in HD."



Notice that note 2. Indicates that it actually captures at 60i and then performs pulldown.

Also, the JVC HD series cameras capture "natively" in 720p. Just for the sake of accuracy...

Heath, I've done 3:2 pulldown from 60i footage to get the 24P out of it. You're saying that the data off a P2 card, the pulldown has already been performed, and you're getting full-frame 24P off the cards?

This is what I'd hope the new HDV-to-solid state is like too..

It's like the V1u, DVX100, HVX200, etc.: it can record in both interlace and progressive. Keep in mind, with the exception of the HVX200, in the sub-$15,000 category, all 24p cameras are packaging that 24p signal in a 60i stream via the 2:3 pulldown.

Heath
I'm stilll curious why Sony made this statement.

"The HVR-Z7E and HVR-S270E can switch between 1080p, 1080i in the HDV format. The 3 ClearVid CMOS Sensor system and EIP technology create true 1080p images, which can then be recorded as progressive signals by the HVR-Z7E and HVR-S270E camcorders in the HDV format. The progressive HDV streams can be output from an i.LINK connector and used for progressive editing with compatible NLE software."

Reading this statement they clearly state 1080p recorded as progressive signals. 60p??? or is it 24p/30p over 60i?? And the progressive streams can be output and used for progressive editing?

Heath, you're probably right. The way they're wording it with "true 1080p" got me excited.

Thanks.

Reading this statement they clearly state 1080p recorded as progressive signals. 60p??? or is it 24p/30p over 60i?? And the progressive streams can be output and used for progressive editing?

It's gotta be 24P in a 60i stream on HDV tape.. this isn't new. However, what's the footage on the card .. could it be true 24P. By this I mean 24 full progressive frames per second rather than 60 interlaced frames per second with 24P footage within?

Tape = 60i with 24P 3:2 required (most likely)
Card = ?

I'm stilll curious why Sony made this statement.

"The HVR-Z7E and HVR-S270E can switch between 1080p, 1080i in the HDV format. The 3 ClearVid CMOS Sensor system and EIP technology create true 1080p images, which can then be recorded as progressive signals by the HVR-Z7E and HVR-S270E camcorders in the HDV format. The progressive HDV streams can be output from an i.LINK connector and used for progressive editing with compatible NLE software."

Reading this statement they clearly state 1080p recorded as progressive signals. 60p??? or is it 24p/30p over 60i?? And the progressive streams can be output and used for progressive editing?

Heath, you're probably right. The way they're wording it with "true 1080p" got me excited.

Thanks.

The specs on the Sony Japan website for the Z7 say this:

"The corresponding video format is
HDV1080：60i/24p/30p
DVCAM/DV：480/60i "

But what I haven't been able to find, is how they are achieving the 24p. I am going to speculate that they are using pulldown from the 60i. My guess is based on the specs for the M35:

"Video signal
1080/60i NTSC EIA 1080/60 i system, NTSC color, EIA standard method
1080/50iPAL、CCIR 1080/50 i system, PAL color, CCIR standard method "


But that is a seriously uneducated guess.

Thanks Joel. But what does this mean? (From Studio Daily)

"Like the EX, which is an XDCAM recorder that doesn’t record to XDCAM discs, the new S270U is an HDV recorder that doesn’t have to record to HDV tapes. Beyond capturing and recording images as 60i using 2:3 pulldown, the S270U’s native progressive recording mode lets it output 24p and 30p (25p on the European version) via iLink."

Does the CF recorder hook up to the iLink (IEEE1394) port?? What do they mean by beyond capturing and recording 60i using 2:3 pulldown?
Is this true 1080p/24 to iLink or is it performing pulldown extraction from 60i?

Sorry guys, just trying to decipher the "marketeze".

Notice that note 2. Indicates that it actually captures at 60i and then performs pulldown.
Joel,
Just so we're all clear here:
That's talking about 24p mode. Heath was referring to 24pn mode. The "n" stands for native. If you shoot the HVX200 in 24pn mode, you're only getting 24 progressive frames of data written to the card per second. That's about as true of a 24p as 24p(n) gets.

As far as I understand it, the HDV specifications dictate that there HAS TO BE 60 interlaced frames of data written to tape every second. This is why JVC broke with the HDV consortium guidelines and invented their own flavor of HDV they call "ProHD". Their 720p24 format is proprietary (and pretty good).

By no means am I an expert, I just read a lot. The previous paragraphs are what I've gathered from my readings in the past. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here. I very well could be.

As far as I understand it, the HDV specifications dictate that there HAS TO BE 60 interlaced frames of data written to tape every second.

That's a pretty silly guideline. Mpeg decoders are very robust and could easily handle multiple different resolutions and frame sizes. A 25p native stream would encode more efficiently without the encoder trying to assume there is interlacing.

Like I said, i could be wrong

the new S270U is an HDV recorder that doesn’t have to record to HDV tapes. Beyond capturing and recording images as 60i using 2:3 pulldown, the S270U’s native progressive recording mode lets it output 24p and 30p (25p on the European version) via iLink."

Does the CF recorder hook up to the iLink (IEEE1394) port?? What do they mean by beyond capturing and recording 60i using 2:3 pulldown?
Is this true 1080p/24 to iLink or is it performing pulldown extraction from 60i?

Sorry guys, just trying to decipher the "marketeze".


Okay. I talked with my local dealer and this is what he said. They made the camera recording switchable to record 1080i or 1080p. Going to tape is a 60i stream like Robert said. The CF module has a label mark that says "Progressive" . The module can record 1080p/24 or 1080p/30 in m2t. But it's not the same GOP as traditional HDV2. (He didn't know what it was).

The module can record m2t,dv, etc. in 60i (HDV2 Which he's sure includes 24p like the V1) and the 2 "New" progressive modes 1080p/24 and 1080p/30.

So we don't know what edit systems will support the new GOP. He said FCP should have it in the next release but he thought Avid Liquid should work right now and he didn't know about the others.

So it sounds like Sony is using the m2t file format with a different GOP for 24/30p.

Sort of like JVC did with getting 720/60p to an HDV tape. They went from a 6 frame GOP on 720p/24/30 to a 12 frame GOP to get 60 true progressive frames on the 200 series cameras.

Note: (Not everything is forced to be in a 60i stream by the HDV spec)

Cheers.

Going to tape is a 60i stream like Robert said. The CF module has a label mark that says "Progressive" . The module can record 1080p/24 or 1080p/30 in m2t. But it's not the same GOP as traditional HDV2. (He didn't know what it was).

The module can record m2t,dv, etc. in 60i (HDV2 Which he's sure includes 24p like the V1) and the 2 "New" progressive modes 1080p/24 and 1080p/30.

So we don't know what edit systems will support the new GOP. He said FCP should have it in the next release but he thought Avid Liquid should work right now and he didn't know about the others.

So it sounds like Sony is using the m2t file format with a different GOP for 24/30p. Note: (Not everything is forced to be in a 60i stream by the HDV spec)

Good.. a real 24 solid frames per second on the card.

For what it's worth, FCP can export HDV 1080p24: twenty four frames per second, in a GOP HDV format. So the HDV spec has some leg-room it appears.

The last thing I want when moving to a solid state format, is having to re-render all my data to get 60i to 24P - that'd be stupid - the technology is better than that.

Note: (Not everything is forced to be in a 60i stream by the HDV spec)


Really? Good to know. We are talking about going to tape right? Not arguing, just trying to make sure I completely understand. It was my understanding that if it went to tape it had to be 60i, but when you take tape out of the equation, all bets are off.
To be clear, when I'm talking about forcing into a 60i stream I'm ONLY talking about going to tape.
Thanks in advance for explaining this to me.

Really? Good to know. We are talking about going to tape right? Not arguing, just trying to make sure I completely understand. It was my understanding that if it went to tape it had to be 60i, but when you take tape out of the equation, all bets are off.
To be clear, when I'm talking about forcing into a 60i stream I'm ONLY talking about going to tape.
Thanks in advance for explaining this to me.

No, we're talking about to the card.

We know how the tape works: to tape is 60i - with the 24P 'contained' within the stream.

To card it could be true, 23.976 frames a second (also known as 24P). Not 60i.

Ethan,

You're probably right in that you can't fit a full 1440x1080 24p 25mbit HDV2 in anything but a 60i stream to tape. But JVC did fit a 720/60p 19mbit HDV1 stream to tape.

But this is excellent news for indie film makers that want interchangable lenses and don't have to use a program (like Cineform) to deinterlace and extract 24p from a 60i stream. I bet most edit programs will support the new GOP soon.