If you want to see "about" what HD material would look like at 80mbits/s you can see what SD material looks like at 15 mbits/s. This will give you a visual on how good the compression is.
Sounds reasonable, but there is a caveat along the lines of "all else equal" that needs adding to that, as all compressors are not equal. A given MPEG2 bitrate does not by itself define quality, it depends on the codec implementation as well. As Mike said earlier:
Flash XDR uses the same MPEG2 CODEC as the PDW700 (we buy the CODEC module directly from Sony).......We understand that this is the 6th generation MPEG2 encoder/decoder from Sony. Due to advances in semiconductor technology and better compression algorithms, bit-rates have dropped approximately 50% in the last 10 years for the equivalent video quality.
Hence this module may achieve a quality at 7.5Mbs that an early MPEG2 encoder would only have been able to manage at 15Mbs.

Tim,

What does the recording format have to do with dymanic range? A recording tool just dumps what the camera sees into a format we can use. mpeg2 or pretty much any other codec try to mirror what comes in as best they can. If your camera itself doesn't handle dynamic range very well then the XDR cannot make your camera better. If your camera has great dynamic range then the XDR should record it as that.


Well I guess I am coming from the point that the 4:2:0 color space is limiting dynamic range due to less color information.

Or maybe I should be using the term lattitude instead.

Upon speaking with a Sony tech on the phone, he told my dynamic range is a factor of chip size and chip attributes as well as the codec that stores information recorded.

When the mod for the DVX-100 took the signal straight off the sensors, they supposedly got 9 stops from that camera.

Maybe I am wrong here, and please tell me if I am.

I just hope to see more of an image improvement from the XDR than just eliminating artifacts from the tenth wheat stalk from the left. :)

Sounds reasonable, but there is a caveat along the lines of "all else equal" that needs adding to that, as all compressors are not equal. A given MPEG2 bitrate does not by itself define quality, it depends on the codec implementation as well. As Mike said earlier:

Hence this module may achieve a quality at 7.5Mbs that an early MPEG2 encoder would only have been able to manage at 15Mbs.

yes but the only time there is a big quality difference between encoders is when the bitrate is too low.

This is why XDCAMHD at 25mbits/s or even 18 mbits/s usually looks better then HDV at 25 mbits/s. A $1,000.00 HDV camera is not going to use the same expensive mpeg2 encoding chip that a $20,000.00 camera uses. I always tell people mpeg2 is not all the same. Just as all software mpeg2 encoders are different so are hardware encoder chips. This is why AVCHD cameras are so bad right now. The encoding chips just are not very good right now. It costs money to have an encoding chip and AVC encoding is so much harder then mpeg2 encoding. So we have a much more complex encoding chip in cameras that cost the same as the mpeg2 based cameras. Clearly many quality corners were cut to keep the cost of those AVC encoding chips down.

One of the reasons I assume the XDR is at the price it is is because they are using a very high quality mpeg2 encoder. This is the same encoder used in the PDW700 so you know even at 25 mbits/s it will already look better then what your HDV camera can do. This is why Mike keeps telling everybody that he thinks a lot of people will enjoy the 50 mbits/s 4:2:2 mode because it will be very rock solid with this encoder. If you are shooting a extreme environment such as a massive amount of camera flashes on a red carpet event then you should maybe bump that up a few notches.

So my post about trying it with 15mbits is just for people to be able to see what video looks like at the max level. The only reason I said this is because a lot of people have never really seen HD at 80 mbits/s or higher so this would give them a rough idea of what they could expect. A lot of people think all forms of mpeg2 are bad because it has been drilled into their heads for the last couple of years. Mpeg2 is not bad at all and the only reason HDV wasn't all that great was because it had too low of a bitrate based on the cheap encoder that was used.

Thomas -
thanks for your time and replies...
it is very much appreciated!
Lonnie

Mike, I have a small question:

Since it will be quite hard to edit those capture codecs natively (FCP, which is the system I use, doesn't support nativelly any of the high bitrate codecs, does it?) will there be any sort of conversion software available? I do not mind long conversion times, as long as the material is in the best quality possible... Do specially include a software that can convert the Long GOP and High Bitrate files to Prores in a "lossless" manner! I believe Avid Users will want an Avid codec converter...

Hi Sergio-
We are working with Apple and Avid to get native support of all our MPEG2 CODECs. Both companies are implementing the 50Mbit 4:2:2 full-raster MPEG2 CODEC found in the Sony PDW700. All our 4:2:2 modes are based on this same CODEC, just at a higher bit-rate (100 vs 50) and I-Frame only, instead of the IPB long-GOP. We don't believe and neither does Apple or Avid, that these are significant development projects. Most MPEG2 CODECs, either hardware or software, will already support I-Frame only, at least in decode.

Once these higher bit-rates are supported, it should be a fairly simple task to transcode to ProRes or DNxHD. However, you should be able to play back in the native format and only transcode regions which have effects added. I know that FCP has very good support now for multiple CODECs on the same timeline. Effects are rendered in ProRes, but all the other video can remain in it's native format.

Another sample footage request/suggestions to show off the XDR improvements:

- Shot of leaves blowing it the wind

- Water in a river or sunlight reflection on a moving water surface

- CU of fire

Long GOP just hates these type scenes

(and the 10 bit software upgrade coming down the pike is awesome! Makes our Que Investment even more valued - kicking around a second one)

Hi John-
Excellent suggestions! I too am most interested to see how well the 100 Mbps Long-GOP holds up in these conditions. I am betting that we will be surprised and the Long-GOP will perform quite well at these higher rates.

I also want to test with a camera flash, which can really test the Long-GOP as you can generate 1-2 frames in the middle of the GOP which are completely different from the I-Frame.

Mike Schell

PS I was obviously "asleep at the wheel" when I posted the e-mail address to get on the newsletter. So, if you want to be added to the Flash XDR e-mail list, send a note to sales@convergent-design.com

As an XL -H1 owner, I have been following this for awhile - I am super excited to hear it's progressing well.
I may go to NAB, just to see it .
John

As an XL -H1 owner, I have been following this for awhile - I am super excited to hear it's progressing well.
I may go to NAB, just to see it .
John

Hi John-
Thanks! We are working double time to get it finished. Debug is going extremely well. We will keep you posted on the progress, but NAB is looking good.

Best-
Mike

Mike,

Even from your preliminary brochure, I can see your favourite mounting option for the Flash XDR is the back of the XL-H1 camera... While this is understandable, please tell me: having the PMW-EX1, what will my mounting options be? Between the camera and tripod - OK, but how about shooting handheld? Also, I am using PAG batteries without V-mount (Powerpack 100 Wh model 9370), attached to the plates which either goes to the back of my PAG Orbitor shoulder support, or to my waist with the belt clip (the plates have two PP90 socekts - one is used for the PAG lamp).

Another question is this: on your web site it's possible to preorder with a deposit, but I'd like to buy from your EUR distributor (www.symbiosis.eu), and they don't take pre-orders. What do I do to get the Flash XDR as soon as possible (would like to get the Invoice, dated before the end of March - even if the actual delivery is going to take some more time).

I'll apreciate you answer.

PS Is it viable to record from the EX1's HD-SDI to the Flash XDR, while monitoring on a HD laptop, using Flash XDR's 1394 output?

Anyone talked to you about taking the XDR and making it the building block for a camera?

Just trying to think of how many 10-bit 4:2:2 uncompressed cameras there are available...

Every camera with HD SDI output.

Every camera with HD SDI output.

I meant a one piece camera utilsiing XDR technology for onboard recording.

forgive if it's already been addressed, but it occurred to me yesterday, will the xdr also capture uncompressed audio, or is it only a video stream?

thanks

Adam

Dear Adam,

The Flash XDR provides for recording 4 channels of audio embedded in the HD-SDI data stream, or 2 channels of analog XLR input (microphone or line level), with microphone gain up to 65 db.

The analog audio data is recorded at 48,000 samples per second with a word size of 16 or 24 bits (user selectable).

So, yes, the Flash XDR records uncompressed audio (in the usual meaning of the term).

Being able to record 48K/24 Bit can be a real advantage over the usual 48K/16 Bit recording standard.

Note that the analog XLR inputs, direct to the Flash XDR, completely eliminates any issues with less than optimum audio sections of the camera.

Note that the analog XLR inputs, direct to the Flash XDR, completely eliminates any issues with less than optimum audio sections of the camera.

Which is an advantage provided the XDR's own section is of higher quality :)

On another note: has anyone got any update about the mounting options with the Sony EX1, and the PAGlock battery system?

my bad,

It was one of those I'm too exhausted and didn't go through the thread to find out what might have been mentioned in other posts. And I should have looked at the pdf.

Good news though, really amped with part as my HD251 only has 384kbps compressed audio.

Question with that then, does it work in the same manner as the video stream that if it's SDI output, the audio isn't already compressed, or is this possibly hardware restricted within the camera?

thanks

Adam

Dear Adam,

The embedded audio from your camera, output via HD-SDI, should be uncompressed 48k PCM (Pulse Coded Modulation). In other words, it should be uncompressed.

The HD-SDI standard provides for up to 8 pairs (16 individual channels) of embedded audio at 48k 24 bits. 16 bit audio is also accommodated.

You do not need to worry about the 384k compressed audio, it does not apply when using HD-SDI.

forgive if it's already been addressed, but it occurred to me yesterday, will the xdr also capture uncompressed audio, or is it only a video stream?

thanks

Adam

Hi Adam-
Just to expound further on Dan Keaton's excellent summary of the Flash XDR analog audio, I would add that we are using top of the line components in this design. The 24-bit audio A/D is a very high-end device with >120 dB dynamic range and very low harmonic distortion. Even the headphone amplifier is a very high-grade design, arguably a notch above the headphone driver circuit in most camcorders.

Which is an advantage provided the XDR's own section is of higher quality :)

On another note: has anyone got any update about the mounting options with the Sony EX1, and the PAGlock battery system?

Hi Piotr-
Our mechanical engineer has completed the Flash XDR box design and is now concentrating on mounting options. We are actively working on support for the Sony EX1.

Also, we are adding numerous threaded inserts into the box to support various monting options. More details soon.

mate this is all good news, I'm constantly thinking "If only I didn't have sucky compressed audio for this situation". This will help when I'm soloing in documentary and events land and have no sound man.

Cheers

Adam

mate this is all good news, I'm constantly thinking "If only I didn't have sucky compressed audio for this situation". This will help when I'm soloing in documentary and events land and have no sound man.

Cheers

Adam

Hi Adam-
Thanks! I would also emphasize that if you purchase Flash XDR only for improved video and audio quality, you will be missing half the benefits of this box. You see, if addition to improving both video and audio quality, Flash XDR will offer file-based tape-less workflow with search-able metadata and the ability to mark clips (good, better, best).

So, you should be able to save time in post by downloading only clips marked "good". Also you can search the metadata, which can be opened in Excel to locate clips based on GPS coordinates, director, event, date, camera number, etc. We'll have some predefined templates, but you can also create your own fields or entirely new templates.

We think this post-production work-flow enhancement will be as valuable as the A/V quality improvements. In the end, Flash XDR should enable you to produce a higher-quality product (video or tape) and save you time in post.

We just finished some initial tests on the Transcend 32 GB CF card. This is an amazing card for only US $150; readily available from many retailers (I just purchased 4 from Newegg). It's also about 1/10 the price (per GB) of P2 or SxS cards.

Our tests indicate a write speed of 115 Mbps and a read speed of 330 Mbps. (Read speeds are, quite often, much faster than write speeds with Flash memory). So this card can easily support 50 Mbps and likely 80 Mbps MPEG2 streams (4:2:2, full-raster, Long-GOP).

We will also test the new Lexar UDMA Firewire 800 reader ($60) tomorrow. You can daisy-chain up to 4 readers together and set up an (unattended) batch transfer of 128 GB (4 cards) of video to your internal or external drive. So, for around $250, you basically get the same capability as the $1800 P2 reader (which admittedly holds 5 cards).

Given the huge price advantages of using a consumer memory and card readers, you can buy a Flash XDR + 4 Transcend CF cards for the same price of 6 of the 16GB P2 or SxS cards! You'll also get the improved video and audio quality, at no extra charge.

I am trying to figure out if this has any use for EX1 owners. The uncompressed recording is nice but 128gb for 17 minutes doesn't work for me. That's about a TB for every two hours.

I haven't tried the AJA box, but it claims to convert the footage live to 10 bit 422 ProRes HD. That is great because it is reasonable compression.

Am I missing something?

I am trying to figure out if this has any use for EX1 owners. The uncompressed recording is nice but 128gb for 17 minutes doesn't work for me. That's about a TB for every two hours.

I haven't tried the AJA box, but it claims to convert the footage live to 10 bit 422 ProRes HD. That is great because it is reasonable compression.

Am I missing something?

Hi Mike-
You don't have to go to full uncompressed for significant improvements in video / audio quality. Your EX1 uses MPEG2 4:2:0 Long-GOP compression at 35 Mbps rate. With the Flash XDR you can go up to 100 Mbps Long-GOP 4:2:2 or 160 Mbps 4:2:2 I-Frame only (which is above HDCAM quality). Either of these rates give you reasonable storage times. And of course, Flash XDR is certainly much more portable and battery powered compared to direct ingest into a laptop + IO HD.

I haven't tried the AJA box, but it claims to convert the footage live to 10 bit 422 ProRes HD. That is great because it is reasonable compression.
I hear Mikes response to that - Flash XDR is more portable etc - and it's certainly true.

But I suspect I'm not the only one here to think "wouldn't it be nice to have a box the size, weight etc etc of the XDR that recorded to ProRes.........?" It's called having cake and eating it.

I hear Mikes response to that - Flash XDR is more portable etc - and it's certainly true.

But I suspect I'm not the only one here to think "wouldn't it be nice to have a box the size, weight etc etc of the XDR that recorded to ProRes.........?" It's called having cake and eating it.

But then you wouldn't get that sweet 50 Mbps setting that should really be a sweet spot for most people.

I hear you David but the shoot hdv and render to ProRes workflow works pretty well. Apple should focus on getting Other programs (After Effects) to work with it.

Hi Mike-
You don't have to go to full uncompressed for significant improvements in video / audio quality. Your EX1 uses MPEG2 4:2:0 Long-GOP compression at 35 Mbps rate. With the Flash XDR you can go up to 100 Mbps Long-GOP 4:2:2 or 160 Mbps 4:2:2 I-Frame only (which is above HDCAM quality). Either of these rates give you reasonable storage times. And of course, Flash XDR is certainly much more portable and battery powered compared to direct ingest into a laptop + IO HD.

Mike, can you please explain how your product would benefit me as an Gy-HD200 owner. I wanna get the best quality out of this thing, so please tell me in layman's terms, how my GY-HD200--Flash XDR--FCS2 workflow would be and what's the highest quality I can expect, as opposed to what I get now with the Firewire capture. Thank you.

But then you wouldn't get that sweet 50 Mbps setting that should really be a sweet spot for most people.

I hear you David but the shoot hdv and render to ProRes workflow works pretty well. Apple should focus on getting Other programs (After Effects) to work with it.

We are seriously looking at a program to transfer our MXF files from the Compact Flash card and transcode to ProRes in a one step process. It won't occur in real time (maybe 2 to 3x), but we are hoping users can load up 4 CF readers, pick the files they wish to transfer (and concatenate) and optionally transcode to ProRes. Once the process is started, it should run unattended (run overnight).

Long-GOP MPEG2 unquestionably produces the best quality video for a given bit-rate below 100 Mbps. This is accomplished by the use of both spatial (I-Frame) and temporal (P and B frame) compression. MPEG2 does enable very high-quality video on low-cost Compact Flash cards, while providing long record times; a task not easily accomplished with I-Frame only CODECs.

But, Long-GOP MPEG2 is also undeniably more difficult to edit, so a transcode to the I-Frame ProRes as the data is being copied from the CF cards might be the best solution.

I would welcome your comments and suggestions.

Our tests indicate a write speed of 115 Mbps and a read speed of 330 Mbps. (Read speeds are, quite often, much faster than write speeds with Flash memory). So this card can easily support 50 Mbps and likely 80 Mbps MPEG2 streams (4:2:2, full-raster, Long-GOP).



Hi Mike

Is this 50 Mbps speed with just one card or do you need four in striped in a RAID?

Stefan

Mike,
Forgive my ignorance on codecs... but recording to a codec that one could also use as a delivery codec makes a lot of sense to me - no renders, no transcodes, it stays "pure"... so if one of the HD delivery darlings for High Def is H.264, what would be the disadvantages of using this codec with the same dialup options of Mbps?

Thanks,
Lonnie

Hi Mike

Is this 50 Mbps speed with just one card or do you need four in striped in a RAID?

Stefan

Hi Stefan-
We can easily record the 50 Mbps on one card, no striping required. It looks like the Transcend 32 GB card will work up to 75 to 80 Mbps.

Mike,
Forgive my ignorance on codecs... but recording to a codec that one could also use as a delivery codec makes a lot of sense to me - no renders, no transcodes, it stays "pure"... so if one of the HD delivery darlings for High Def is H.264, what would be the disadvantages of using this codec with the same dialup options of Mbps?

Thanks,
Lonnie

Hi Lonnie-
Ultimately, the H.264 will be a better solution. But, we have not found a high-quality reasonably-priced hardware CODEC. In a few years, I am sure the semiconductor technology will be available.

Hi Stefan-
We can easily record the 50 Mbps on one card, no striping required. It looks like the Transcend 32 GB card will work up to 75 to 80 Mbps.

Can you stripe and hit 160 Mbps with 4 cards?

S

Can you stripe and hit 160 Mbps with 4 cards?

S

Hi Stefan-
Very cool idea! Yes, this is certainly possible, but would require some additional development work. We could go one of two routes: 1) Limit the playback to HD-SDI output only (no file transfer) or 2) Develop a program to stitch the files back together during transfer off the CF card.

Let me discuss with our engineers. But I do like the idea of using cheap 32GB CF cards to get better than HDCAM quality video. Excellent suggestion.

Long-GOP MPEG2 unquestionably produces the best quality video for a given bit-rate below 100 Mbps. ........

But, Long-GOP MPEG2 is also undeniably more difficult to edit, so a transcode to the I-Frame ProRes as the data is being copied from the CF cards might be the best solution.

I would welcome your comments and suggestions.
I'd agree with all that. Trouble is, "best solution" can take on different meanings depending which side you look at a puzzle from! :-)

I suspect what you are advocating is the most practical solution, given available hardware at a realistic price. That said, the "ideal" (from the users side!) would be for the XDR to code directly to whatever the NLE is most happy with - ProRes or whatever - and then allow download and ready to edit at a fraction of real time, rather than 2-3x. But presumably the chips simply do not exist (yet) to do that?
Can you stripe and hit 160 Mbps with 4 cards?
Shouldn't be necessary. Mike's comments are referring to a specific CF card which is pretty cheap - he quotes 32GB for $150. You can get much faster CF cards if you pay more which should easily make 160Mbs (and more) individually.

[EDIT]
But I do like the idea of using cheap 32GB CF cards to get better than HDCAM quality video. Excellent suggestion.
Ah - point taken, getting a very high bitrate recording, whilst still using very cheap memory. Interesting idea.

I'd agree with all that. Trouble is, "best solution" can take on different meanings depending which side you look at a puzzle from! :-)

I suspect what you are advocating is the most practical solution, given available hardware at a realistic price. That said, the "ideal" (from the users side!) would be for the XDR to code directly to whatever the NLE is most happy with - ProRes or whatever - and then allow download and ready to edit at a fraction of real time, rather than 2-3x. But presumably the chips simply do not exist (yet) to do that?



Hi David-
You have to make a lot of trade-offs when designing a portable, low-power, high-quality HD recorder. Yes, it is possible to capture into an I-Frame CODEC such as ProRes, Cineform, or DNxHD but we would take a big hit on power consumption and the size of the box.

We can likely get closer by striping the 160 Mbps I-Frame across multiple cards. There is considerable merit to this idea, since the Transcend 32 GB card is $150, while high performance 32 GB cards are in the $400 to $500 range.

I-Frame only MPEG2 at 160 Mbps should be very close to ProRes in quality and playback performance.

Hi Stefan-
Very cool idea! Yes, this is certainly possible, but would require some additional development work. We could go one of two routes: 1) Limit the playback to HD-SDI output only (no file transfer) or 2) Develop a program to stitch the files back together during transfer off the CF card.

Let me discuss with our engineers. But I do like the idea of using cheap 32GB CF cards to get better than HDCAM quality video. Excellent suggestion.
Hi Mike,

Here's a BLUE SKY THINKING question ... forgive my ad agency background.

Say I was shooting 3D Stereoscopic with two cameras, is there a way to multiplex both HD SDI signals into one - record at say 100 Mbps - and later, on playback, separate into two discrete 50 Mbps signals?

S

Hi Mike,

Here's a BLUE SKY THINKING question ... forgive my ad agency background.

Say I was shooting 3D Stereoscopic with two cameras, is there a way to multiplex both HD SDI signals into one - record at say 100 Mbps - and later, on playback, separate into two discrete 50 Mbps signals?

S

Hi Stefan-
Any great idea, but no this is not technically possible. You can lock two of our boxes together and do the 3D captures.

Hi Stefan-
Any great idea, but no this is not technically possible. You can lock two of our boxes together and do the 3D captures.

Do I get a discount?

S

Hi David-
You have to make a lot of trade-offs when designing a portable, low-power, high-quality HD recorder. Yes, it is possible to capture into an I-Frame CODEC such as ProRes, Cineform, or DNxHD but we would take a big hit on power consumption and the size of the box.

We can likely get closer by striping the 160 Mbps I-Frame across multiple cards. There is considerable merit to this idea, since the Transcend 32 GB card is $150, while high performance 32 GB cards are in the $400 to $500 range.

I-Frame only MPEG2 at 160 Mbps should be very close to ProRes in quality and playback performance.Mike, I don't envy your position of offering an awesome product... only to be asked for MORE, LOL.

That said, the merit of being able to choose DNxHD, ProRes or Cineform is that the transcoding step for many would be eliminated. Vegas users would have Cineform, Avid users DNxHD and Apple users ProRes right out of the recorder.

But in addition to power and size issues, you'd now have to support three additional codecs with different quality settings and intermittent upgrade releases. That sounds like a RPITA.

Mike, I don't envy your position of offering an awesome product... only to be asked for MORE, LOL.

That said, the merit of being able to choose DNxHD, ProRes or Cineform is that the transcoding step for many would be eliminated. Vegas users would have Cineform, Avid users DNxHD and Apple users ProRes right out of the recorder.

But in addition to power and size issues, you'd now have to support three additional codecs with different quality settings and intermittent upgrade releases. That sounds like a RPITA.

Hi Peter-
I couldn't agree more. We would also never get this product out of engineering. We have to make compromises to meet size, weight, power and cost constraints.

Transcoding is always a possibility. We know it's not ideal, but until the world settles on one CODEC (which will never happen), this will always be a fact of life.

Mike,

Any news on the EX1 mounting option (which many are interested in), and the PAGlock mounting option (which I am personally interested in)?

Also, any details on delivery date to those having preordered?

Mike,

Any news on the EX1 mounting option (which many are interested in), and the PAGlock mounting option (which I am personally interested in)?

Also, any details on delivery date to those having preordered?

Hi Piotr-
We are looking at a couple of options for the EX1 and batteries, including mounting with the parallel rods found on some high-end cameras. But, to be honest, we'll be busy for another week or so working on the final details of the basic box.

We're doing a pre-production board build next week. The cabinet and rubber overmold are also due next week. We hope to go into production as soon as this proto is tested.

I promise to keep you posted.

Congrats Mike

You've made the front cover of NAB Show Special DV Magazine!

http://www.dv.com/news/news_item.php?articleId=196603897

S

Mike, I don't envy your position of offering an awesome product... only to be asked for MORE, LOL.

That said, the merit of being able to choose DNxHD, ProRes or Cineform is that the transcoding step for many would be eliminated.
Ah Peter, but if more could be given, a desirable product becomes irresistable, and even more are sold..... :-) But in all seriousness, I do understand the constraints.

Different users will have different needs, and those of long term projects will be different from those of fast turn around. But for the latter, a potential appeal of solid state could be *ZERO* download time - shoot, insert into reader(s) and immediately edit directly off the card(s), consolidating the edit at the end. It's the cheapness of CF and it's readers relative to other solid state memory that makes such a workflow more viable.

Congrats Mike

You've made the front cover of NAB Show Special DV Magazine!

http://www.dv.com/news/news_item.php?articleId=196603897

S

Hi Stefan-
Excellent! That's better than being on the cover of the "Rolling Stones".

Ah Peter, but if more could be given, a desirable product becomes irresistable, and even more are sold..... :-) But in all seriousness, I do understand the constraints.

Different users will have different needs, and those of long term projects will be different from those of fast turn around. But for the latter, a potential appeal of solid state could be *ZERO* download time - shoot, insert into reader(s) and immediately edit directly off the card(s), consolidating the edit at the end. It's the cheapness of CF and it's readers relative to other solid state memory that makes such a workflow more viable.

Hi David-
Agreed! If you are under a time-crunch, then editing in the native MPEG2 format is always an option. When ever increasing CPU power, this becomes a more reasonable option.

Using the Transcend 32GB card and shooting at 50 Mbps, your download speed on a Firewire-800 reader is 6X real time (ie 60 minutes of footage can be transferred in 10 minutes).

We had great results with th stackable Lexar Firewire-800 reader yesterday. Each card shows up as a separate drive on the desktop. You can perform an unattended transfer from up to four cards, by stacking four of these readers.

So our new "tape-deck" is four stacked Firewire-800 readers, which weight in total less than 1 lb, require no external power (other than the Fire-Wire bus), takes up less space than an external hard-drive, holds 4.5 hours of footage (at 50 Mbps), transfers video at 6X real-time, has essentially zero drop-outs or time-code breaks, and costs $250. Welcome to the world of solid-state recording on Compact Flash!

Hi Stefan-
Excellent! That's better than being on the cover of the "Rolling Stones".

Sorry, I meant "Rolling Stone" as in the magazine, not the group.

We had great results with th stackable Lexar Firewire-800 reader yesterday. .... and costs $250. Welcome to the world of solid-state recording on Compact Flash!
Calumet # IM20902
$69.99 - $35.00 Rebate
$34.99 Your final price after mail-in rebate

4 x 35 = $140 (not $250 - you was robbed)

Hurry offer ends this month
http://www.calumetphoto.com/pdfs/Lexar-UDMAReader-RebateApr08.pdf

If you are under a time-crunch, then editing in the native MPEG2 format is always an option.
Yes, agreed.
Using the Transcend 32GB card and shooting at 50 Mbps, your download speed on a Firewire-800 reader is 6X real time (ie 60 minutes of footage can be transferred in 10 minutes).

So our new "tape-deck" is four stacked Firewire-800 readers, ......... Welcome to the world of solid-state recording on Compact Flash!
But for real rush jobs you don't even need that 10 minute download. As example, the Firestore can be used for acquisition, then plugged in to an NLE as an external harddrive and editing start immediately - no download time at all. Useful under some circumstances, though it means it can't then be used for anything else until the edit is over, and requires constant powering.

Using your "tape deck" should enable the same "instant edit" capability but without powering issues, and the XDR can still be used for other filming - assuming enough CF cards.