Hi all,

After reading so many forums and different section of this forum . I came out with bit and piece taken from everywhere.The result I think is pretty good . Only down fall is harddrive space.

But first I got to let everyone know what system I'm having, so the time varies with you system:
Power Mac dual 1.25, 2 Gig ram, Ati 9600 64mb,FCP studio (FCP5.1.4)
Yes it an oldie, but it still works for HDV editing. Note, I'm working in PAL land.

1 ) After editing your HDV sequence in FCP.

2) Export your sequence with "quicktime conversion" to an uncompressed 8-bit or 10-bit quicktime file.

Some of you might say there is no reason to transcode to SD 8 or 10 bit. Compressor will convert your HDV timeline straight to an SD mpeg2 file.

Yes you are right , but doing it that way will render your transitions/fx in FCP as HDV and add artifacts, While doing it uncompressed for the downconversion keeps that from happening.

This is the advice given straight from a fcp plugin developer who also works on the "RED" team.

You could alternatively change the sequence codec from HDV to uncompressed 8 or 10-bit or ProRes before you export (trash your hdv renders first also) as well.

3)set the parameters for 768 x 576 SD and check the box labeled "maintain aspect ratio 16:9"

4) then compress the 8 bit or 10 bit file in compressor with whatever the best setting you can do (based on how long it is) ,

But I skip this step, because DVD Studio Pro takes this file too.( whichever is your liking, I found that both ways add up to the same rendering time, convert to Mpeg2 in compressor first or convert to Meg2 in DVD SP later)

You will end up with a Gorgeous downconverted SD version that looks every bit as good as the best hardware downconverters can do.

Someone did a test with a professional Sony SDI CRT monitor had compressor set for the highest quality downsizing settings and claims that it still does not look as good as doing it through quicktime conversion where HD to SD is concerned.( Which I too agree . You can test it yourself)

5) Load the resulting assets into DVD Studio Pro, and make sure you set the track type to 16:9 to match the anamorphic footage.

If you want the footage side cropped when played on a 4:3 TV, choose 16:9 Pan-Scan, it will fill the screen, but loose the sides.

If you want the footage letterboxed when played on a 4:3 TV, choose 16:9 Letterbox.

If you want both, just click both option at the bottom.

Burn and test on a real TV with a real DVD player.

I hope it helps,

There are a few ways to do what I'm doing. It a matter of personal choice. But the result speaks of itself .

sorry to ask an off-track question:
Is a dual 1.25 GHz CPU equivalent to a P4 2.5 GHz single chip CPU?

I'm not really sure about that, But I think it add up to be the same.

thanks for that david, it is helpful to me , just starting with HD.

No worries, I'm gald it is of help to you .

sorry to ask an off-track question:
Is a dual 1.25 GHz CPU equivalent to a P4 2.5 GHz single chip CPU?

No, a pc runs about half as fast as the equivalent speed of a mac.

I forgot to add this in,

This here is between steps 4 & 5 .Just remember to keep the bitrate below 9.2 in total (Video + Audio + subtitle), Why? because not all DVD player can handle high bit rate.And if it is too hight, DVD SP won't be able to burn the DVD.For more info on Bitrate go here and read this : http://dvdcreation.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=31809

This may be just the answer I'm looking for. I spent last Saturday shooting seven hours of HD footage on my Canon XH-A1, and most of this week trying to find the best way to downconvert it (not all of it, just a 30-minute section) to burn on an SD DVD in 16:9 letterbox. I ended up exporting in QuickTime from FCP, creating an MPEG-2 in Compressor, then burning that to DVD. I'm not happy with how it looks when I play the DVD on my computer screen, but it does look pretty good on an ordinary TV.

I did have problems, the first time I tried my process, with a lot of interlace problems, so I ran a deinterlace filter in FCP, and the results looked better (definitely better on the TV, still not so great on the computer screen). I'm curious, David, if you deinterlace anywhere in your process?

You can do the deinterlace in DVD SP at the end or in FCP . Yes it looks better on TV then the computer screen.

Anyone have a similar process for the CS3 collection?

David can you elaborate on your FCP settings for "Audio/Video Settings". My plan is to shoot HDV, capture and edit as HDV then export as SD into a quicktime file using "Quicktime Conversion" H.264, Compressor Quality-Best,.. though I'm not sure what should I set for the "Export Size Setting".


Currently in FCP 6.0 i have..
SEQUENCE PRESET- HDV-1080i60
CAPTURE PRESET- HDV
DEVICE CONTROL PRESET- HDV Firewire Basic
VIDEO PLAYBACK-None
AUDIO PLAYBACK-Default

Thanks,.

I tried afew , It seems to me that with a size of 640 x 360 you get a good 16:9 quicktime movie that you can show on the net with out it being strech or squash looking. You can set to any ration you want as long as it is 16:9 .
meaning that 720 x 405 or 752 x 423 will also work.

But chose the normal SD size if you want to have it for DVD SP and make it a SD DVD, Just change your time line to 16:9 in DVD SP and the normal SD size footage will look 16:9 instead of squash like in Quicktime

3)set the parameters for 768 x 576 SD and check the box labeled "maintain aspect ratio 16:9"

I am using Final Cut Pro 5.1.4 and have had no luck getting my HDV sequence properly converted to an "Uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2" .mov file using "Quicktime Conversion". I have tried every possible combination of settings and everything I export is squished and no longer 16:9. In your instructions you say to "set the parameters for 768 x 576 SD and check the box labeled "maintain aspect ratio 16:9". I assume that since you are using PAL then my dimensions will be different (720x480 NTSC), but in Final Cut 5.1.4 there is no "check the box labeled "maintain aspect ratio 16:9". Are you using Final Cut 6? There is only a check box labeled "preserve aspect ratio using: letterbox, crop, or fit within dimensions". I have selected "preserve aspect ratio using: letterbox" and the result is not 16:9, but squished. I have opened the 10 bit file in Compressor and DVD SP (16:9 SD project) and the footage remains distorted.

Any suggestions?
Hugh

I have found a way around the trouble I was having. By exporting my HDV sequence to Compressor and then converting to "Uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2" has worked. In Compressor's Inspector window there is an easy way to preserve the 16:9 aspect ratio. Once converted to "Uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2" I can re-import the .mov file into Compressor and encode to Mpeg-2. I still don't understand how you get 16:9 directly out of FCP using "Quicktime Conversion".

Hugh

When you use quicktime conversion, a window comes up. You click the option tab. then you click the setting tab to set 8bit or 10 bit. click o.k when you are done ,you'll come back to the window that allows you to choose the size tab. Click the size tab , and a window opens up. Click the Dimentions tab . And you can choose what size you want. Set the parameters for 768 x 576 SD and check the box labeled "maintain aspect ratio 16:9"

Maybe you are right about the NTSC part but you can still set the dimension manaully.

BTW I'm using FCP 5.1.4

Anyway the movie will come out not 16:9 if you view it in Quicktime, But once you put it in a 16:9 timline in DVD SP it will be fine.

Set the parameters for 768 x 576 SD and check the box labeled "maintain aspect ratio 16:9"

For some reason my copy of Final Cut 5.1.4 does not have a "maintain aspect ratio 16:9" check box, but rather a "preserve aspect ratio using: letterbox, crop, or fit within dimensions" check box in addition to a deinterlace check box. Weird.

Would it accomplish the same thing to export my HDV sequence to Compressor, then convert it to "uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2", and finally re-import the "uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2" file into Compressor and convert to Mpeg-2?

Thanks,
Hugh

I'm sorry about the confusion , you are right, It doesn't have maintain aspect ratio 16:9. I was think about something else.

Use preserve aspect ratio using and click letter box.

It will be fine when you bring it in to a DVD SP timeline of 16:9 to demux it . You can do a short clip of 10 sec to test if it works for you.

Hi David,
Thank you for your suggestions which I am right now trying.

About broadcast safe:

Do you or others here suggest to scale down to stay broadcast safe?
A fellow says it is fine to scale down the sequence to 91% for SD TV (PAL).
Where is the scaling (or padding) best carried out?

Anybody here who have an opinion? Unfortunately not all TV sets are created equal ...

Thanks for any input! / Johan

Hi David,

Thank you very much for this workflow! It is good and quite straight forward. Only disadvantages are it is eating disk, about 1.67 GB/minute of video (10 bits) and that the uncompressed QT SD film has incorrect proportions if we try to play it.

However, I can still see artifacts but they are less now. For instance if shooting a blue sky and fading it up/down. (It was shot with a Canon XL H1, 25F, PAL, HDV). But it is perhaps as far as we will come with this kind of equipment.

Thanks! /Johan

Hi Johan,

I'm glad it helps, BTW did you trash your render before you out put it to uncompress. That helps to cut down artifacts. Yes it is incorrect proportions, but it will work fine when you put in inside a 16:9 time line in DVD SP.

Hi David,
Thank you for your workflow solution. This thread is more and more belonging to Linear editing on the Mac but as we started here let's go on.
I deleted the render files and tried it again. Probably a little better now.
However, this fade in of a blue sky is the only limitation in my video in my opinion where there is a quality issue to be concerned. I wish I could make it better.

I also tried to export the clip using ProRes HQ. I considered the result to be about the same at the final SD DVD.

Two advantages compared to uncompressed 10-bit: File size about 25 % and the intermediate .mov file was possible to watch directly with QuickTime and correct aspect ratio.

I encoded a 10 sec test SD DVD file where the problematic blue sky is while fading in. I made it from a Canon D60 still photo to get rid of any moving noise pattern.

Maybe some of you would like to download it and judge if this is as it should be, better or worse.
Perhaps this is as good as it gets with an 8-bits.

I would appreciate your opinion, please.

http://www.regito.com/video/DVD-test-10s.zip

Extract it and open the VIDEO_TS file with DVD player.

David I was hoping you might able to comment on this message I posted earlier.

In FCP 6.0 I just discovered that in my HDV timeline I never applied the render to "Preview". Yet before I discovered my mistake I have always exported my quicktime files fine for use as SD on DVD.

Now when I render my timeline for everything such as "preview", I'm not exactly sure what that does or even if it helps in quality for my SD on DVD. btw when I render the "Preview" a message box prompts during the process saying "Conforming HDV Video"

My question is, is the "preview" rendering step necessary? The only thing I noticed different is above the timeline, the green line (Video:Preview) changes to blue (Video:Rendered). And it seem to me that the quality in my quicktime files burned to SD DVD are the same when played back on my television. Am I missing out on something by skipping this step?

Thanks

I not very sure about this , but I have been only using 5.1.4 not FCP6

But I was told that you trash your render before you export to keep the artifacts down.

If you need to preview your section that is not rendered , just use quickview to see how it looks like instead of rendering the section. Helps keep rendering time down and saving disk space.

Hi David,

HDV workflow has been a hinderance to me for some time with FCP 5 and Compressor. I will have to try your settings. I have searched and searched for a way to convert video without artifacts and clear SD downconverted video, and Id say after about 120 hours of just searching, trying and failing, that I cant believe I am still searching. So your input helps.

Question, have you or any members tried using Cineform NEO HD to capture with first (via bootcamp through windows or through FCP then converting to Cineform) and then making a timeline, dropping the files in, editing, and then exporting to web, DVD, etc.?

The reason I ask is because the videos and work of the other contributors in this site, like Steven Dempsey (first link), or Ramon (second link) below:

http://www.pinelakefilms.com/short_reel.html
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=89723

all have a crisp look to their final output footage. Im not talking about their cinematography, which is beautiful, but strictly the quality end result file. Granted, its captured through Cineform either via PP or Vegas, edited, and output via Vegas - but Im wondering if using Cineform HD would allow Mac users to have the same sharp images being output through FCP.

Any thoughts or test footage from anyone via this route is appreciated.
Peace and Blessings,

Hidalgo

I tried your suggested route David, and had some pretty good results. Very impressive. Amazing how large Uncompressed 10 bit footage can be! Wow. Your conversion method is definitely a nice alternative. Thank you for that.

So do you think capturing either through Cineform software and editing would give the same effect or better? I would love to see a comparison.

Thank for all of your help.

Hidalgo

I'm glad it helped..

I like to try cineform, but the time is not right for me yet. In the mist of a project, and I need to upgrade my really old mac later.

But I have heard of good results from the people that are using Cineform that I spoke to during IBC2007 in Amsterdam

Just for reference: 1hr of 8bit 4:2:2 = 70gb

Had to buy another hdd to try this method.

David.

So to trash the render files – do you just move them out of the render files folder (in finder), or can you do it from inside FCP?

Bw
Sven

David.

So to trash the render files – do you just move them out of the render files folder (in finder), or can you do it from inside FCP?

Bw
Sven
FCP states that one should always use the " Render manager" to delete the rendered files and not use Finder to do so.

Go to the tools tad and use "Render Manager"


Just for reference: 1hr of 8bit 4:2:2 = 70gb

Had to buy another hdd to try this method.

Why don't you do a test with a 1 min clip before you decide to try this method. Look at the end results of the 1 min clip before you decide to buy a hard drive.

Like I said in my first post, the down side of this method is hard drive space

David,

Was this edited in a 24f easy setup, or 60i (or 25f, since you are PAL)?

Would your method work with 23.987 material, or would there be any additional steps?

Stu

Hi David,

This is the workflow I have been using as well, and it's a winner.

One additional point I would add is:
in Compressor when you have assigned your compression settings,
in the Inspector window under "Filters", add about 2.5 in "sharpen"
(or is it "sharpen edges?"), it helps the detail in the final DVD.

This should be a thread that is pinned as it seems to be one of the
best general workflows going for HDV right now.

All the best,

(another) David

David,

Was this edited in a 24f easy setup, or 60i (or 25f, since you are PAL)?

Would your method work with 23.987 material, or would there be any additional steps?

Stu


I did my test on both 24f and 25 f and also 60i

Just change the import set up according to your footage. What I learn is that never try to record two different format in one tape. if you record 24f make sure the whole tape is 24f and if 50i , make sure the whole tape if 50i. I've tried mixing, and capturing was a pain.

Also adjust the time line to the choice of your footage.

I got a upgraded XHA1. So I can do both PAL or NTSC.

Hi David,

This is the workflow I have been using as well, and it's a winner.

One additional point I would add is:
in Compressor when you have assigned your compression settings,
in the Inspector window under "Filters", add about 2.5 in "sharpen"
(or is it "sharpen edges?"), it helps the detail in the final DVD.

This should be a thread that is pinned as it seems to be one of the
best general workflows going for HDV right now.

All the best,

(another) David

Great David,

Nice find, I'll give it a go.

Hi David,

you said:
"...Anyway the movie will come out not 16:9 if you view it in Quicktime, But once you put it in a 16:9 timline in DVD SP it will be fine...."

This is a point that has thrown some people after their QT conversion,
the resulting QT mov. file still looks like 4x3, but DVD sp fixes all that.

Good thread and I use the same workflow and get good
results too...thanks,

David