I am UK based so have the V1E PAL camera. I am reading specs on the web about the V1U which claims to have 24P. In the manual for my V1E it states I have 25P "just like film", which is of course wrong, as film is 24P. Maybe just bad translation from the Japanese?

So can someone clarify the difference between the V1U and V1E in progressive mode.

Thx

Kevin

Hi Kevin

Our local SG is PAL as V1E on progressive mode only 25p It do not have 24p. May be V1U NTSC is 24p progressive.

http://www.theprofessionaledge.ca/articles/issue7/article_05.html

So can someone clarify the difference between the V1U and V1E in progressive mode.

The PAL units capture at 25p -- same as film in Region 50 countries -- while the NTSC units run at 24p.

The PAL units record 25p using 1-2 pulldown in 50i -- while the NTSC units record 24p using 2-3 pulldown in 60i.

The PAL units capture at 25p -- same as film in Region 50 countries

AFAIK Film is 24 frames per second all over the world and not just in USA?

The PAL units capture at 25p -- same as film in Region 50 countries

AFAIK Film is 24 frames per second all over the world and not just in USA?

I guess Steve means the video film ;>)

I suppose the E in V1E stands for England (don't know what the Welsh think of that!) and V1U stands for United States of America.

Odd though that Sony give the Americans true 24p and we brits get a cludged 25p. Though I suppose it does make the editing easier!

I suppose the E in V1E stands for England (don't know what the Welsh think of that!) and V1U stands for United States of America.

Odd though that Sony give the Americans true 24p and we brits get a cludged 25p. Though I suppose it does make the editing easier!

If so, then I'm reserving V1P for Poland, and our friends in the Pacific Region are left without their own, dedicated model;>)

E = europe.

There's nothing odd about it. Everything is played at 25 fps here. 24fps movies are sped up to get to 25.

E = europe.

There's nothing odd about it. Everything is played at 25 fps here. 24fps movies are sped up to get to 25.

Yeah... In broadcast, yes. The problem starts with the new video delivery media (BD/HD DVD) which apparently have adopted 24p as de facto standard.

Even new HDTVs are appearing with special 24p mode (see Pioneer's Kuro).

So, ease of editing 25p when compared to 24p - yes. Othewise, I'm afraid we've been hosed.

So, ease of editing 25p when compared to 24p - yes. Othewise, I'm afraid we've been hosed.


Not really. Intelligence (and past history) have had producers shooting at 25p vs 24p. It's easier math, looks identical to 24p, and anyone that claims that they can view a 25p stream next to a 24p stream and tell the difference is either gonna be very, very lucky, or they're a liar.
No one can tell a 1fps difference visually.
Look at how many posts in XXXX forums are about pulldown. With 25p, this isn't an issue.
I'd submit there are some significant benefits to 25p.

Not really. Intelligence (and past history) have had producers shooting at 25p vs 24p. It's easier math, looks identical to 24p, and anyone that claims that they can view a 25p stream next to a 24p stream and tell the difference is either gonna be very, very lucky, or they're a liar.
No one can tell a 1fps difference visually.
Look at how many posts in XXXX forums are about pulldown. With 25p, this isn't an issue.
I'd submit there are some significant benefits to 25p.

Spot, I did mention editing being much easier, with no pull-down removal stuff etc. However, the BD specs do not list 25p at all, and HD DVD - well, the only European model of the Toshiba player is still waiting for the promised firmware upgrade to enable 25p compatibility...

Unless you mean a workflow where I do all edits of native 25p m2t's (as I've been doing so far), but then - at the final stage - render it out to a 24p MPEG-2 file, ready to burn on BD.

Lemme get this project off my table, I'll dig up some 25p V1 footage, and render as 25p for BD. I'll burn it and see if I can play it back. Just because there is no spec listed doesn't mean it won't work.
Meanwhile, anyone else with a BD burner and player is invited to do the same.
Render a sequence of frames with a different letter or number in each frame, and you'll be able to see if the player is managing any frame conversion.
I've never worried about 25p on HD delivery in the past, so haven't looked closely at whether this is a problem (for real, or just a missing bit of info).

Lemme get this project off my table, I'll dig up some 25p V1 footage, and render as 25p for BD. I'll burn it and see if I can play it back. Just because there is no spec listed doesn't mean it won't work.
Meanwhile, anyone else with a BD burner and player is invited to do the same.
Render a sequence of frames with a different letter or number in each frame, and you'll be able to see if the player is managing any frame conversion.
I've never worried about 25p on HD delivery in the past, so haven't looked closely at whether this is a problem (for real, or just a missing bit of info).

I'm waiting with great anticipation to your experiment output, Douglas - thanks! I can't do it myself, as I don't own a BD/HD DVD burner yet.

Anyway, it's relatively easy to change the fps from 25 to 24 in Vegas, while keeping the clip length and audio pitch - it can add some time to the final render, though... So if it proves 25p can play on a BD player with no problems, I'll only be very glad!

I'm waiting with great anticipation to your experiment output, Douglas - thanks! I can't do it myself, as I don't own a BD/HD DVD burner yet.

Anyway, it's relatively easy to change the fps from 25 to 24 in Vegas, while keeping the clip length and audio pitch - it can add some time to the final render, though... So if it proves 25p can play on a BD player with no problems, I'll only be very glad!

Why does it take time? It's a one button operation.

Of course I mean render time, not that for pressing the buttons (and there's more than one involved) ;>)

Spot, I did mention editing being much easier, with no pull-down removal stuff etc. However, the BD specs do not list 25p at all, and HD DVD - well, the only European model of the Toshiba player is still waiting for the promised firmware upgrade to enable 25p compatibility...
Remember when all the PAL claimed NTSC was screwed-up. Now the shoe is on the other foot. :) :)

It certainly looks that the FILM side of BD and HD DVD have decided that disc "movies" should be 24fps. This has three negatives:

1) in the USA the really big deal is BD and HD DVD shown at 72fps or 120fps. These numbers are chosen based on 24. Both BD and HD DVD must output 24p -- plus the display must support 72fps and 120fps. Do EURO displays support 60fps, 72fps, and 120fps OR 50fps and 100fps? If only 60fps, 72fps, and 120fps then the players will only need 24. Good luck waiting for 25p.

2) A question about BD and HD DVD when video is mixed with film. What happens to 50i video? This suggests that 25p will be supported eventually.

3) What happens to prosumer 25p video?

The fact Toshiba understood the need for 25p is a good sign. But, if no patch has come after a year -- then who knows when. And, BD has no 25p spec. Which means even if 1 or 2 BD players will play 25p, you can't count on ALL players doing so.

Moreover, it's possible cheap the burning software will reject 25p.

Yes, you may be "hosed" unless you slow 25p down to 24p.

I wouldn't worry about the viewing devices - their European models (like the new Pioneer Kuro line) are compatible with both 25fps and 24fps formats (their multiple of 25/50 being 100 Hz, and that for 24 - 72 Hz).

However, 25p not being listed in the BD specification is more of a nasty surprise. Well - I guess the multitude of formats the new XDCAM EX cam will offer can be of much greater importance to European customers than anyone else!

I wouldn't sweat too much over BD not supporting 25p, it's a doodle to convert 25p to 24p and the other way around as well. It came as pleasant surprise to one of my mates when they had to playout a 24p HDCAM SR tape, the deck didn't even blink, just played it out as 50i (well 25PsF to be technically correct).
As for mixing 24p and 50i on the one timeline, no a problem either, just converted a TVC for streaming that was done this way, shot on 35mm at 24fps, supers were added at 50i. Bit of pain having to de-interlace the "video" supers to get back to 25p but the original looked just fine when broadcast.
Of course a staggering amount of film was shot at 25fps, in PAL countries probably more of it than will ever be shot at 24fps. Back then it was just easier on the telecine I think, today we shoot at 24fps, probably saves a little on stock costs.

Lemme get this project off my table, I'll dig up some 25p V1 footage, and render as 25p for BD. I'll burn it and see if I can play it back. Just because there is no spec listed doesn't mean it won't work.
Meanwhile, anyone else with a BD burner and player is invited to do the same.
Render a sequence of frames with a different letter or number in each frame, and you'll be able to see if the player is managing any frame conversion.
I've never worried about 25p on HD delivery in the past, so haven't looked closely at whether this is a problem (for real, or just a missing bit of info).

Spot, did you find some time for the promised experiment - the result would be invaluable to me...

it plays 25p; whether it's converting to 24p or actually 25p is beyond my ability to ascertain right now. I only burned a 3 minute loop.
When I get a massive project off my plate, I'll take a deeper look at it. It's not of importance to me, so it's gonna have to sit at the far back of the bus for a while.

it plays 25p; whether it's converting to 24p or actually 25p is beyond my ability to ascertain right now. I only burned a 3 minute loop.
When I get a massive project off my plate, I'll take a deeper look at it. It's not of importance to me, so it's gonna have to sit at the far back of the bus for a while.

Thanks anyway - appreciated!