Even if just the ProType Titler and the Multi-Camera part are true, we'll be ordering seven upgrades the week it comes out.

Vegas titles have always been barely adequate to put text up on the screen and that is about it. The options for a scrolling title are maddeningly stupid and few so if you want to do anything remotely fancy, you have to kludge it together with loads of keyframed layers and masks.

Vegas titles have always been barely adequate to put text up on the screen and that is about it. The options for a scrolling title are maddeningly stupid and few so if you want to do anything remotely fancy, you have to kludge it together with loads of keyframed layers and masks.

I agree. So any improvement is welcome.

So of the new features....

Looks like the most signficicant are..

ProType Titler
Multicamera editing tools
Blu-Ray Disc burning direct from the timeline
No-recompress rendering for long GOP HDV (wonder what that really means)

This looks more like an incremental upgrade rather than a huge change which frankly is a good thing..

I'd like to know how performance is going to be affected. If they can get 10-15% better performance, particularly with .m2t HDV playback after color correction, transitions etc then I'm sold...

Jon

The word at NAB is that 64 bit Vegas will be a widespread beta BUT ONLY to people who upgrade to Vegas 8 - for whatever that is worth. They already had a working version of it then.

I was also like a stablizing plugin. That would be very useful.
I second that.

10-bit 4:2:2, matches the human visual system better than 8-bit 4:4:4, that is why it is better performer.
Which is better comes down to what implementation you're talking about (many different ways of implementing 10-bit 4:2:2), your subjective taste, what test material you are using, and context (what are you monitoring on).

As far as 10-bit 4:2:2 deficiencies go...
A- Non-constant luminance. When you have fully saturated green on magenta (and most other combinations), there is a dark band in the transition area.
B- Chroma subsampling causing colors to go out of R'G'B' gamut. If you take valid R'G'B' values, the chroma subsampling can push them outside the displayable R'G'B' gamut. If you have alternating red and black lines, the black pixels will end up with chroma on them, resulting in positive red and negative green and blue light. And of course negative light isn't displayable, so you effectively have clipping.
You can see it in the test patterns at
http://codecs.onerivermedia.com/
C- The subsampling itself is prone to aliasing, imperfect frequency response, and/or ringing artifacts. If you run a color zone plate pattern through a codec you will see this. The worst offenders are the codecs that implement point sampling (e.g. DNxHD in its VFW implementation; haven't tried its other implementations).
D- You also get inappropriate mixing of resampling schemes. Most codec/NLE combinations result in this inappropriate mixing.

The attached images show a zone plate example. Box resampling was the chroma filtering + reconstruction method. Box resampling doesn't follow 601/709 standards (e.g. they call for co-sited chroma, whereas box resampling means interstitial chroma). But nonetheless it's what Vegas works well with.

As far as 8-bit R'G'B' deficiencies go...
You can see banding/contouring artifacts as long as:
A- The image has no noise in it and no dithering or dynamic rounding. (Smart implementations would implement dithering or dynamic rounding so that banding isn't an issue. Or your image source has noise in it, which happens in the majority of real world situations.)
B- The two different tones are very large / have a large visual angle.

In a very clever/interesting scheme, you can actually almost get away with 3-bit bit depth. So the picture of the baby at
http://web.mit.edu/persci/people/adelson/documents/Li_ACM_24-3.pdf
15.4MB PDF file; it's page 7
HDR companding and bit depth is related; you can ignore the HDR stuff the article is about.

Negative light - nonesense. The full luma range is able to you, yes the extremes value are super-black and super-white they perfectly usable and highly valuable. Some lowend solutions just crop them off, yet these values are increased dynamic range of YUV over CG-RGB. Nearly all video cameras use these values. Now Vegas uses video systems RGB, so the 0-64 luma values map to 0-16 in RGB, so it is not even negative in the Vegas presentation. Vegas uses a wider gamut RGB so it can store the naturally wider gamut of YUV. So 10-bit YUV does have 4 times the luma levels as 8-bit 4:4:4 video systems RGB.
I guess I am coming from a different context. If you send 10-bit Y'CbCr to a broadcast monitor, values 0-64 dont contain visually discernible information. They all result in black.

You're coming from an equally valid perspective in that you can map these values around in post.

Wow...you guys go in deep!

I'm just happy to hear the words Blu-Ray Authoring.

After breezing through the post, I did not see anyone link to the SonyStyle site. I may be wrong, but it looks like they're selling Vegas 8 + DVD Production Suite for $599 but it's on backorder.

Here's the link:
Vegas 8 (http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&XID=O:svdvd8000:dg_ggldf&kw=svdvd8000&lp=8198552921665224967&productId=8198552921665224967)

DSE is even selling training (http://www.vasst.com/product.aspx?id=3ce6c54d-3a9a-4d1d-8b4f-a3e82204e77c) for it.

Forum sponsor videoguys.com is selling Vegas 7+DVDA for $400 after rebate, and announced free upgrade to V8.

http://www.videoguys.com/specials.html

it's funny to see Blu-Ray supported... but not HD DVD... but then i remembered that sonic foundry is no more and that this is sony =P.

are there/have there been HD DVD authoring options or do those people have to go elsewhere?

I noticed that the VASST site says, "Shipping Wednesday, September 19" for the version 8 training. Is that also the date that Vegas 8 will be released?

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

I noticed that the VASST site says, "Shipping Wednesday, September 19" for the version 8 training. Is that also the date that Vegas 8 will be released?

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

Nope:
heres Sony press release:

Vegas Pro 8 NLE Software Delivers Customizable Creation Tools Including ProType Titling Technology, Multicamera Editing, AVCHD Workflow and Blu-ray Disc Burning

(MADISON, WI - August 30, 2007) Sony Creative Software, a leading provider of professional video and audio editing applications, today announced Vegas Pro 8 software, the newest version of its award-winning nonlinear editing (NLE) software.

Vegas Pro 8 provides professional editors with precise control over complex DV, HDV and XDCAM projects through powerful tools for editing material shot in multi-camera environments. Vegas Pro 8 will be available September 10, 2007.

it's funny to see Blu-Ray supported... but not HD DVD... but then i remembered that sonic foundry is no more and that this is sony =P.

are there/have there been HD DVD authoring options or do those people have to go elsewhere?

First, the lack of HD DVD authoring has little to do with Sony or not.
Very little HD DVD support for authoring at this time on any front.
There is no Blu-ray authoring in Vegas 8 either.

The VASST Vegas 8 DVD volume couldn't go to the replicator until Sony cleared the Vegas 8 product announcements, and there is no way we could have them replicated en masse and have them shipping next week. We'd like to turn a fewK DVDs in less than a week....but it's not possible. NDA prevents the DVDs from being sent to the replicator until the product is announced.

I got the email and will happily be purchasing from Vasst within the next few days...

Jon

There is no Blu-ray authoring in Vegas 8 either.


Argh!!!!!!!.......tell me your kidding?

I'm hoping you are just correcting my usual "got it wrong" statement i.e. when I said Blu Ray AUTHORING. Sorry...jumped without thinking what I was actually saying.

In my simple way of looking at things, I always class the authoring/burning stage as the same part of the process for me, which clearly they are not.

Sorry if i clouded the waters with that.

So....if, as it looks, I can BURN from the timeline, I'm a little confused. What options does that give me for chapter points/menu creation?

If you can BURN to Blu-Ray from Vegas then is there any need for DVD Architect other than for SD projects?

Authoring means one thing.
Burning means another.
Burning BD from/in Vegas is no big deal.

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/news/ShowRelease.asp?ReleaseID=668

Official Press Release.

In depth breakdown of new features, including screen shots....

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/products/product.asp?pid=457

So we still can't author and burn a blu-ray disk with DVDA. Wow, I really thought this would be in DVDA version 4.5. Why would someone want to burn a BD from the timeline? Archival maybe?

But I can't wait to try the new titler!

Burning BD from/in Vegas is no big deal.

You weren't kidding:(


Blu-ray Disc Burning
With Vegas Pro 8 software you can burn a Blu-ray Disc directly from the timeline. Blu-ray Disc burning allows you to create a disc similar to a "single movie" DVD—the movie has no titles, menus, or buttons. Blu-ray Disc burning in Vegas Pro 8 software provides an alternate distribution option for high-definition content, rather than traditional file-based hard disk or streaming media formats. You can also use the Blu-ray Disc burning feature to create high-definition discs that can playback on a set-top Blu-ray Disc player or on a Sony PS3 gaming system.

I suppose we should be grateful for something. Ok....so now I say...this disc, is the main movie, this one is the goodwill messages, this one is the reprise and the fast forward/rewind buttons on your DVD remote are here!

By "no big deal" I meant it's very easy.
Tools/Burn Disc/Blu-ray disc/50i or 60i template, or whatever template suits your fancy.
Blu-ray authoring is a much bigger deal than you'd think. Some folks seem to think it's "easy" to do. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it.
The tools that are out there (like DVD Studio Pro, etc) that claim BD burning are doing the same thing. The spec only recently settled out, so expect to see more BD authoring tools shortly/soon from various vendors.
Having burned BD and played it back on my BD player, it's easy, fast, and sweet to look at.

easy, fast, and sweet to look at.

Hehe, I'm sure there's room for a joke there Spot, but I'm quite sure it's beyond our posting guidelines. ;-)

-gb-

To be honest, basic burning, but no authoring will meet my goals most of the time. (I'm extrapolating from DVDs here - I'm thinking about the day that BD is more widely deployed.)

Often I just want to send a disc to friends or relatives with the latest cool thing. If they just hit play, rather than select menus - and I don't need to bother authoring - that's fine with me. It's also fine for an archive (though compressed.)

If I want to make a commercial product, yes, I need to author. But my ratio of informal to formal burns is probably ten to one.

Your mileage might vary.

Now I'm just waiting for that "special" email from Sony Creative Software that will give special "upgrade" pricing for existing customers. Hope it comes soon. :(

Jon

So what is the best flavor of Vista to run Vegas8. Any major draw backs to Home Premium? Will it run on 64 bit as the 32 bit Vista will only "see" 3 to 3.5 gigs of RAM?

Thanks,

Konrad

In depth breakdown of new features, including screen shots....

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/products/product.asp?pid=457


Took a look at the screen shots. Am I missing something? - looks almost exactly like 7. Not a bad thing, I just thought I'd see more of a change to reflect some of the features.

So of the new features....

Looks like the most signficicant are..

ProType Titler
Multicamera editing tools
Blu-Ray Disc burning direct from the timeline
No-recompress rendering for long GOP HDV (wonder what that really means)

This looks more like an incremental upgrade rather than a huge change which frankly is a good thing..

I'd like to know how performance is going to be affected. If they can get 10-15% better performance, particularly with .m2t HDV playback after color correction, transitions etc then I'm sold...

Jon


Where does it say BluRay burning? I looked on the Sony site and I didn't see any mention of it. Ofcourse its late, I need to go to bed, and so I may have missed it. Thanks - PK

Is the new DVDA going to have auto save???*#!!

To be honest, basic burning, but no authoring will meet my goals most of the time. (I'm extrapolating from DVDs here - I'm thinking about the day that BD is more widely deployed.)

Often I just want to send a disc to friends or relatives with the latest cool thing. If they just hit play, rather than select menus - and I don't need to bother authoring - that's fine with me. It's also fine for an archive (though compressed.)

If I want to make a commercial product, yes, I need to author. But my ratio of informal to formal burns is probably ten to one.

Your mileage might vary.

I'm basically in the same boat as you. I can do without the authoring just so I can have a BD. And it will still be sometime before I have a BD burner and player anyway. Maybe by that time Sony will have an interim relaase to DVDA to author BDs.

i've read about the issues with authoring BD. it has to do with java and basically learning how to code java in order to author the BD disc. if you do not want to code, someone (like the vegas programming team) must create templates of codes so that we can achieve certain fx.

this means vegas9 might have BD authoring capability?

Took a look at the screen shots. Am I missing something? - looks almost exactly like 7. Not a bad thing, I just thought I'd see more of a change to reflect some of the features.

Look at some of the sub-pages - you'll see a couple of Vegas screens you haven't seen before!

Took a look at the screen shots. Am I missing something? - looks almost exactly like 7. Not a bad thing, I just thought I'd see more of a change to reflect some of the features.
Vegas certainly is not progressing at the same rate as the big guns (FCS2 is amazing, for example). For me the highlights of Vegas 8 are 32-Bit Floating Point Video Processing, Multicamera Workflow, and ProType Titler. Considering the titler should have been much better to begin with, I can't consider it an upgrade. I don't do multicamera shoots yet, but I hope the 32-bit float processing will make a visible difference. That's it for me...

i've read about the issues with authoring BD. it has to do with java and basically learning how to code java in order to author the BD disc. if you do not want to code, someone (like the vegas programming team) must create templates of codes so that we can achieve certain fx.BD-J is necessary for the most advanced, interactive features, but it's not necessary. I believe that no Blu-ray title currently on the market yet uses BD-J. I seem to remember that Disney's "Cars" will be the first disc to include BD-J. It will list all makes and models of cars featured in the film, and will let you go to the scenes for each type of car.

At NAB I spoke with a Sonic representative. They were showing the pro version, which cost $5k. Their consumer version (not at the show) cost $500, and was similar to consumer DVD authoring packages (basic menus only.)

Considering that there are still no BD-J titles available, I don't know that the $5k Sonic package includes BD-J. It might be that you author Java in a separate tool, such as J-Builder or Intelli-J, and the Sonic tool lets you integrate the Java code. However, I believe that you can author basic animations and such without Java, but you need Java to implement interactivity over the Internet.

Anyway, I believe that there are these levels of authoring:
0) Burn only (like in V8, apparently)
1) Menus only (consumer grade)
2) Menus and animations (pro grade)
3) Menus, animations and Internet-enabled interactivity (advanced, with BD-J)

Look at some of the sub-pages - you'll see a couple of Vegas screens you haven't seen before!

If you go by "look," then Vegas is the same as it was nearly 10 years ago. Changing the over all look and feel of an application is not only expensive and challenging, it's often bad juju. People get comfortable with an appearance and then don't want to learn a new workflow or layout.
There are many significant upgrades in Vegas8 from the Trimmer and Titler to under the hood/less visible changes. For instance, seeing a frame marker on every event is very useful/helpful, but certainly not a bullet point feature.

Perhaps the different "look" is from the changes mentioned by Sony:
"New in Vegas Pro 8 software are some radical advancements for customizing the layout and positioning of the traditional Vegas layout. The timeline can now be at the top or the bottom of the application. Docking window tabs can be at the top of bottom of the dock."

Perhaps the different "look" is from the changes mentioned by Sony:
"New in Vegas Pro 8 software are some radical advancements for customizing the layout and positioning of the traditional Vegas layout. The timeline can now be at the top or the bottom of the application. Docking window tabs can be at the top of bottom of the dock."

Those particular options are already available in version 7.

If you go by "look," then Vegas is the same as it was nearly 10 years ago. Changing the over all look and feel of an application is not only expensive and challenging, it's often bad juju. People get comfortable with an appearance and then don't want to learn a new workflow or layout.
There are many significant upgrades in Vegas8 from the Trimmer and Titler to under the hood/less visible changes. For instance, seeing a frame marker on every event is very useful/helpful, but certainly not a bullet point feature.

DSE,
My bigger wish (since Vegas4) is an overwrite mode and a track lock button. Two very basic features.
In the Sony forum, very few people asking for this and after seeing the V8 screenshots, I have no illusion: V8 don’t seem to have those features (so paradoxical for a product with “PRO” in his name…)
As a beta tester, please can you tell me if you know some editor using Vegas as a cutter (on long documentary project)?
How are they dealing with this lack?

TIA
Gilles

If I understand you correctly, there is a lock button in tools, and to replace an event with another one, there is "replace" in project media, or to overwrite an event by another event at the timeline level there is the "Takes" feature. But maybe you have something else in mind since you say that you have been asking for this for a long time.

I am using Vegas to edit a feature film.

DSE,
My bigger wish (since Vegas4) is an overwrite mode and a track lock button. Two very basic features.

True, there is no button but the feature is still available to lock an event:
Edit -> Switches -> Lock

To replace media: Right-click a file in the Project Media window, and choose Replace from the shortcut menu.

You can also use takes as Paul Fierlinger suggested.

True, there is no button but the feature is still available to lock an event:
Edit -> Switches -> LockWouldn't you consider the lock icon, when placed in the toolbar, to be a button? You can even select any number of events and lock them together with one click on the lock icon/button.

Absolutely; I negelected to mention that he can customize the toolbar. I meant the "default" layout. Regardless, I find it a non-issue. People seem to constantly point to things that Vegas is supposedly missing because they just do not realize that those things are there (and the Online Help and manual are quite thorough so I don't really understand why).

So, Gilles:
Options -> Customize Toolbar -> Select "Lock Event" on the left (under Available Toolbar Buttons) -> Click Add -> Click Close.

DSE,
My bigger wish (since Vegas4) is an overwrite mode and a track lock button. Two very basic features.
In the Sony forum, very few people asking for this and after seeing the V8 screenshots, I have no illusion: V8 don’t seem to have those features (so paradoxical for a product with “PRO” in his name…)
As a beta tester, please can you tell me if you know some editor using Vegas as a cutter (on long documentary project)?
How are they dealing with this lack?

TIA
Gilles

Why would you want an overwrite mode any more? Even Avid editors hate {b} overwrite mode, and few use it any more. There is an overwrite script icon that can be placed on the toolbar, but why on earth would anyone want to use it? CTRL+SHIFT+Q will insert a new track. Place overwrites on that track, which is the same method we teach in the Avid Media Composer and XpressPro training DVDs.

Spot, would you mind explaining what exactly this overwrite mode does?

Overwrite is an antiquated method of doing an insert edit, or placing a new video clip in the middle of an existing clip. So, you've got a primary video clip playing, and want to insert B-roll. In the old days, you'd do an insert or "overwrite" that would replace media in the primary video for the duration of the desired overwrite length. If you only had say...two video tracks and wanted to use one for titles and the over one for video, then an overwrite is necessary.
Basicly, it's merely a means of replacing sequential frames in an existing video event with new sequential frames.
Putting new media on a new track is much easier, and how even Avid recommends working in their Xpress and Media Composer tools.

No wonder I didn't know what it means; I avoid by all means available inserting a scene into an ongoing event. Sometimes there is a call for it but it's rare for me to allow myself one of those inserts. There has to always be a new place to go to instead of back to the previous one.

Thx for your suggestion Paul & John, but :

-about Overwrite mode: Here ( http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=291882) one of my old thread in the Sony Forum.

-about track lock button: I know the event lock switch feature. I want a Track lock feature (very more handy on long project).

Overwrite is an antiquated method of doing an insert edit, or placing a new video clip in the middle of an existing clip.
In my point of view (and many professional french editors), Overwrite mode is not antiquated. Adding track every time we need to overwrite event(s) complex unnecessarily the project.
After seeing your answer my conclusion is: there is very few real professional editor using Vegas (I’m talking about professional working on long project with many cut).
I really love Vegas, but it is time for me to look on another NLE.

So, if I follow your logic, because 1) you're a "professional French editor" and 2) you don't want to add an overwrite script icon or add a track, you're going to switch to a totally new NLE?

So, if I follow your logic, because 1) you're a "professional French editor" and 2) you don't want to add an overwrite script icon or add a track, you're going to switch to a totally new NLE?

James,
I’m the guy who wrote the Overwrite Script, so this icon is already in my toolbar ;)
Unfortunately, this is not handy as a real overwrite mode.
When I say “I really love Vegas”, this means: I made lot of French tutorials, I’m a French forum moderator and I made lot of free scripts (multicam, photo montage etc…)
But no matter how I love Vegas, this NLE have incomprehensible lacks (I don’t want to explain it again. If you are a professional you should know why).
I will continue to use Vegas, but for long project with hard cut editing I will certainly look to another NLE with very solid editing features and AFF export to make project completion in Vegas (color correcting, compositing, titling etc…)

To DSE:
Do you remember who wrote: I'd rather see an overwrite mode than see 10 bit (http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=453062) ? ;)))

Now, Vegas have 32-Bit Floating Point Video Processing, but no OM.

The term professionalism is quickly changing in these Internet times, and I for one, am glad for this to be happening.

The days when the only filmmaker worthy of the title Professional was the one associated with the big, commercially important studio loaded with huge staffs, monstrous equipment warehouses and disgusting, man-eating bosses.

People who mentally tie themselves to this fading picture are depriving themselves of the future, where the best works will be coming out of the living rooms and basement offices of the new professionals.

To make my point, here is a link to what I am working on right now. It is just a bunch of clips ready to be picked up by a website designer to create a website dedicated to our movie. There are clips from behind the scenes and there are clips from the actual film and there are too many stills and word .docs of bios which you will perhaps want to skip. Just look at the video clips, if you are interested in the point I am making in this post.

www.paulfierlinger.com/TulipWeb/