Here is some footage Chris and I shot on Wed, as well as some screen shots of the footage and the FCP workflow.

the clips are encoded with ProRes 422, I'm not sure if you PC people can handle that (quicktime maybe?), but let me know and I can transcode into something that might work better for you.

I used Final Cut Pro 6 with the latest updates to transfer/transcode the files off the camera. Also as it turns out there are certain quicktime components that can't be installed (perian) if you are going to capture AVCHD footage.

Other than some component issues it was really a seamless process of getting the footage onto the computer. In FCP you have the option to either capture/transcode into ProRes 422 or into Apple Intermediate Codec. the time it took to transfer/transcode the footage on my 2.66 macpro was slightly longer than the duration of the footage ingested (12min of footage took about 13 min) with no other apps running the background.

As far as camera performance goes in the highest quality setting it looks to me to be very very close to the hv20, albeit a slightly softer image, and on the lower settings the image gets even softer with loss of sharpness and color. there was also some motion artifacting on fast shutter speeds with high motion subjects. the motion artifacting didn't seem to happen very often and is similar to what I've seen with the hv20 and mpeg2 artifacting.

Other things I noticed, the screen seemed considerably brighter than my HV20 which made checking exposure more difficult in the field, once in FCP the exposure bias on both cameras feels about the same. the selection/focus/everything else wheel I think is a big improvement as you can easily focus all the way through the range of the lens, the only detriment is that it is cheaply made and somewhat small, when trying use the directional pad I would hit the wheel and wind up somewhere other than where I wanted to be. the placement of the function and d-pad/wheel also makes making any kind of adjustments a two handed affair, whereas on the hv20 you can reach all the controls except focus with one hand.

Also, I've read reviews stating that the 24p on this camera was "compeletly unusable," from what I could tell the 24p on this camera handles exactly the same as the hv20, which I have no complaints about whatsoever.

The lack of zebras and peaking make it a much more difficult to find critical focus/exposure. the other glaring omission is the lack of manual audio control, using either the onboard or an external mic plugged into the mic port.

The playback in camera is pretty crisp, but unlike the hv20 you can't zoom into video files when playing back clips. the menus and controls are simple enough and fairly responsive, the lag isn't as noticeable in other HDD based cams I've played with.



Let me know if you have any other questions etc...

All the files live here:
http://file.meyersproduction.com/hg10/

Here are a few of note:

hg10 in FCP
http://file.meyersproduction.com/hg10/hg10%20in%20FCP.mov

hg10 in 24p (pulldown removed)
http://file.meyersproduction.com/hg10/hg10%2024p%20prores.mov

hg10 in 60i
http://file.meyersproduction.com/hg10/hg10%2060i%20prores.mov

i'm currently uploading some h264 versions for people who don't want to download the prores versions, as well as the hv20 24p clips... should all be up with in the hour...

Any chance of just the raw files themselves, not transcoded?

added a couple to the queue to upload...

THe videos play as a black screen, I hear sound though. :(

what are your system specs?

-Win XP Pro
-Version 2002
-Service Pack 2

-AMD 64 Processor 3500+ 2.2 GHz Processor
-2 GB RAM
-Geforce 6800 GT video card

I just updated quicktime also.

what is a good lossless codec,anyone, that i can encode to that will work on a pc (coming from FCP/Compressor)?

here is a clip in AIC, let me know if this works for anyone...
http://file.meyersproduction.com/hg10/hv20%2024p%20AIC.mov

here are some compressed versions (h264):
http://file.meyersproduction.com/hg10/compressed/

and here are a couple of raw files:
http://file.meyersproduction.com/hg10/raw%20files.zip

here is an animation file, let me know if this one works...

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hg10/24p%20tv%20mode%20animation.mov

Thanks for the footage.

Is this the highest quality setting ? A bitrate analysis applied to the raw files displays a H264 bitrate between 6 and 9 MBPS (peak). The same test with simular footage from a Panasonic HDC-SD1 shows a peak rate of 13 MBPS.

THe compressed versions worked great, and the footage is fantastic. I'm sold on this camera unless something else comes along before xmas.

thanks again for posting.

They probably aren't, if I remember correctly this cam shoots 15, 12, 8, and 5, and i had just grabbed clips that were small file sizes... I'll kick up a few more up overnight and post them up in the morning.

The 00005 clip is either the highest or the 2nd highest, and the 00008 clip is the 2nd lowest I believe.

Thanks for the footage.

Is this the highest quality setting ? A bitrate analysis applied to the raw files displays a H264 bitrate between 6 and 9 MBPS (peak). The same test with simular footage from a Panasonic HDC-SD1 shows a peak rate of 13 MBPS.

I've download 00011.MTS.zip and info about stream below:
file type : TS
video stream type : AVC/H.264
resolution : 1440x1080
profile:level : High:4.0
aspect ratio :30x17(Extended_SAR(4:3))
interlaced : yes
frames count : 450
frame size max : 356 352
avg : 67 894
avg/max (I) : 198 080 / 356 352
avg/max (P) : 126 012 / 224 256
avg/max (B) : 31 628 / 78 144
min : 7 104
file size : 30 554 112
--------------------------------------------

framerate declared : 29.97
--------------------------------------------
real : 29.97

bitrate declared : 16 000 000
--------------------------------------------
real max : 17 932 662
real avg : 16 279 272
real min : 14 638 350
--------------------------------------------

more raw files

this one should be on the lowest setting:
http://file.meyersproduction.com/hg10/00009.MTS.zip


and these 2 are on the highest setting:
http://file.meyersproduction.com/hg10/00011.MTS.zip

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hg10/00019.MTS.zip

How does the built-in mic compare to the HV20? Does it record camcorder noise similar to the tape mechanism (and buttons) of the HV20?

Thanks
Luc

it's hard to tell because the places we were had so much ambient noise, but from what i can tell there is less noise when using the controls than the hv20, just by the fact that they are mounted on the lcd, there is no tape drive noise, and the harddrive is very quiet, and in the clips i have i can't hear the hdd or the zoom motors, but again there is a lot of ambient noise. this cam also is a bit more solid in your hands than the hv20, the lack of a tape drive means no tape drive door, which eliminates the slight play that the body of the hv20 has which in my experience causes some noise when you adjust your grip etc..

some audio (after saying the settings i was pushing buttons changing exposure etc...)
http://file.meyersproduction.com/hg10/hg10%20audio.aif

Thanks a lot. It seems there's no tape noise in that recording (little bit difficult to tell with the sounds but I usually still would pick it up).
Sounds promising:-).

I guess the lack of audio volume control is not an issue if I don't need to lower it to reduce the tape noise:-).

By the way where did you buy it? Looking at [non-sponsor reference removed] it says ships in October?

That's right, it's not available until October. He didn't buy it -- he had his hands on it only for a short while. See http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=100722

I guess the lack of audio volume control is not an issue...Actually it has an audio volume control. That's what adjusts the audio volume when playing back pre-recorded video clips. What it doesn't have is manual audio level control over the built-in mic or the external mic input, for manually adjusting the incoming audio levels during recording.

Actually it has an audio volume control. That's what adjusts the audio volume when playing back pre-recorded video clips. What it doesn't have is manual audio level control over the built-in mic or the external mic input, for manually adjusting the incoming audio levels during recording.

Yeah I meant that (not having to adjust if there's no motor noise).

Well, users of the Vegas editing software will be disappointed. I have verified that Vegas 7 won't edit these files...just like Vegas won't edit Panasonic AVCHD...thanks Austin for posting the raw video. Plus, Sony has announced Vegas 8 to be shown at IBC won't edit any AVCHD except Sony's version.

I was debating between the JVC Everio HD, and the HG-10, and your clips sold me...I don't know why Camcorder Info said the 24P was unusable, it looked fine to me...maybe theirs was defective.


Also, I saw that your 24P clip was a 24 Frame file, not 1080/60i with pulldown...did Final Cut do that upon import or did you use a workaround (if so, what was it?).

and these 2 are on the highest setting:
http://file.meyersproduction.com/hg10/00011.MTS.zip

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hg10/00019.MTS.zip

Thanks again!

In respect to the codec quality, this is the best AVCHD compressed footage I have seen up to now. I assume this is the first camera on the market which provides AVC encoding up to 16 MBPS. If the next generation of single chip AVC codecs support the full AVCHD specification (current limit is 20MBPS), the AVCHD format becomes also interesting for prosumer camcorders, replacing HDV and maybe even XDCAM MPEG-2.

I assume this is the first camera on the market which provides AVC encoding up to 16 MBPS. I believe that's only 15mbps

it said 15mbps in the camera's menu...

I was debating between the JVC Everio HD, and the HG-10, and your clips sold me...I don't know why Camcorder Info said the 24P was unusable, it looked fine to me...maybe theirs was defective.


Also, I saw that your 24P clip was a 24 Frame file, not 1080/60i with pulldown...did Final Cut do that upon import or did you use a workaround (if so, what was it?).

I removed the pulldown using the same method as with the hv20. the 24-in-60 looks like garbage on a computer monitor, and I'm almost certain this is what had the other guys complaining about the 24, if they were just looking at it on the computer then I could understand the "unusable" but on an interlaced monitor it will look the same as with the pulldown removed on a computer.

My work around for 24p is I batch encode using compressor 3 (FCS 2) to remove the pulldown. The HG10 was a bit different as when I initially captured it in RroRes and then tried to remove pulldown and re-export it to ProRes, I was getting some funky errors, so I would have to capture to AIC and then convert to ProRes removing pulldown or vice versa. On the hv20 I capture to 60i HDV and then export it to HDVp24.

imovie 08 works with the HG10

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hg10/imovie%20settings.png
http://file.meyersproduction.com/hg10/imovie%20import.png

It's quite the interesting little app... it also captures and transcodes to AIC at about 90-95mbps at 1440x1080 or 960x540. the coolest part next to the ability to just scrub through your video on the fly is the iphoto-esque image adjustments, and they playback real time (at least on my macpro)

it said 15mbps in the camera's menu...

Yes, 15 MBPS average, but up to 16 MBPS peak depending on scene content (VBR coding). If you play the files on a PS3, you can display the AVC bitrate.

Heinz, i have sample from Panasonic AVCHD cam with these parametras:

file type : TS
video stream type : AVC/H.264
resolution : 1440x1080
profile:level : Main:4.0
aspect ratio :30x17(Extended_SAR(4:3))
interlaced : yes
frames count : 278
frame size max : 446 208
avg : 63 558
avg/max (I) : 221 962 / 446 208
avg/max (P) : 66 094 / 148 992
avg/max (B) : 39 526 / 91 392
min : 17 856
file size : 17 670 144
--------------------------------------------

framerate declared : 29.97
--------------------------------------------
real : 29.97

bitrate declared : 16 000 000
--------------------------------------------
real max : 28 046 968
real avg : 15 239 430
real min : 11 609 213

Interesting is comparing GOP of samples from Panasonic AVCHD and Canon HG10.

Panasonic (from samples i own) have variable GOP from 12 to 16 and looks as IBPBPBPBPBPBPBPI...
HG10 sample 00011.MTS always have GOP15 as IBBPBBPBBPBBPBBI...

Max bitrate at 28Mbps is good for complex scenes:)

Austin, all of *.mts samples is 24p inside 60i ?

Heinz, i have sample from Panasonic AVCHD cam with these parametras:

file type : TS
video stream type : AVC/H.264
resolution : 1440x1080
profile:level : Main:4.0
...


Interesting...

All PANASONIC AVC Cameras I know use high profile (HP@L4). This may be one of the reasons why the footage from PANASONIC or CANON cameras is not supported by Vegas (SONY cameras use MP@L4). Someone in this forum said that the new PANASONIC FullHD camera generation (SX5, SD5) uses 13 MBPS with CBR. I cannot believe this, it does not make any sense.

Interesting...

All PANASONIC AVC Cameras I know use high profile (HP@L4). This may be one of the reasons why the footage from PANASONIC or CANON cameras is not supported by Vegas (SONY cameras use MP@L4). Someone in this forum said that the new PANASONIC FullHD camera generation (SX5, SD5) uses 13 MBPS with CBR. I cannot believe this, it does not make any sense.

Ulead videostudio claims they support AVCHD. So maybe that's an alternative even though not as powerful but good enough for most.

Otherwise you could convert but quite a hassle and you have to make sure it doesn't result in quality loss.

Not an expert on real-time encoders but seems CBR would be much easier to do.
I wonder how these real-time encoder decide it can lower the bitrate in a scene (since in theory more is always better).

Interesting...

All PANASONIC AVC Cameras I know use high profile (HP@L4). This may be one of the reasons why the footage from PANASONIC or CANON cameras is not supported by Vegas (SONY cameras use MP@L4). Someone in this forum said that the new PANASONIC FullHD camera generation (SX5, SD5) uses 13 MBPS with CBR. I cannot believe this, it does not make any sense.

Try samples from Sony SR7 and Panasonic SX6
http://www.archive.org/download/hdv_avchd/sr7_02.MTS.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/hdv_avchd/cx6_02.MTS.mpg

Both Sony SR7 and Panasonic SX6 had similar parameter of streams MP@L4.
Vegas7e can import those streams no problem.
Only HP@L4 samples produced by Canon HG10 impossible edit within Vegas7.

Try samples from Sony SR7 and Panasonic SX6
http://www.archive.org/download/hdv_avchd/sr7_02.MTS.mpg
http://www.archive.org/download/hdv_avchd/cx6_02.MTS.mpg

Both Sony SR7 and Panasonic SX6 had similar parameter of streams MP@L4.
Vegas7e can import those streams no problem.
Only HP@L4 samples produced by Canon HG10 impossible edit within Vegas7.


File cx6_02.MTS.mpg is from a SONY camcorder (CX6 Memory Stick Camera). Btw. the new PANASONIC camcorders use a FUJITSU codec, which supports high profile HP@L4.0 but no PAFF and MBAFF. I don't know what codec the CANON camera is using (inhouse design or third party part).

Heinz, sorry, my mistake. I've mixed SX5 (Panasonic) with CX6 (Sony).

Thank you for clarification.

Popphoto.com:

http://www.popphoto.com/photonews/4432/canon-launches-hg10-camcorder-with-advanced-photo-controls.html

heath

does iMovie 08 work with HV20/HG10 24p or just 30?

Well, users of the Vegas editing software will be disappointed. I have verified that Vegas 7 won't edit these files...just like Vegas won't edit Panasonic AVCHD...thanks Austin for posting the raw video. Plus, Sony has announced Vegas 8 to be shown at IBC won't edit any AVCHD except Sony's version.

Opening just fine in Vegas 7e for me, Guy.

Not opening for me in Vegas 7e, DSE.

Spot, if you are opening Austin's raw AVCHD files in Vegas 7.0e, something else is at play. I'm using Vegas 7.0e Build 216, which I believe is the latest update. I have tried opening all the raw files that Austin has posted here and none open irregardless of whether the file extension is MTS or M2TS. This is the same behavior I get with Panasonic AVCHD files. If you are successfully opening and editing the raw AVCHD in 7.0e, I'm willing to accept something is wrong with my machine. Suggestions on fixing the problem are appreciated. Here are the errors I get from Vegas when I try to open or import these files:

How does the built-in mic compare to the HV20? Does it record camcorder noise similar to the tape mechanism (and buttons) of the HV20?

Thanks
Luc

I haven't shot with the HG10, but can say that there would be no transport noise. I'd expect the buttons to make noise, and on a couple of Austin's clips (thanks for those, BTW) the buttons cannot be heard well, but can be heard. Same with the Sony CX7. On a tripod it's dead silent. The HG10 is likely the same.

I haven't shot with the HG10, but can say that there would be no transport noise. I'd expect the buttons to make noise, and on a couple of Austin's clips (thanks for those, BTW) the buttons cannot be heard well, but can be heard. Same with the Sony CX7. On a tripod it's dead silent. The HG10 is likely the same.

Which clips can you hear the original audio? I tried a few but the audio are all overdubbed in those. The clips on watch-impress unfortunately always have this loud chirping sounds (crickets I assume).

That sounds very promising since that's the biggest thing I hate about the HV20 (and fixing appears overly complex if you're only interested in casual shooting). Also from what I've seen the AVCHD decoder works well enough now for my taste (the test clip from watch-impress is pretty good).

By the way I tried to play the MTS file from watch-impress and I can see the problems at this point. I wasn't able to load the file in the programs that claimed compatibility. But I think that's temporary.

Not opening for me in Vegas 7e, DSE.I'm having issues also with the same version of Vegas

Not opening for me in Vegas 7e, DSE.
Like Guy I can not open any of Austin's raw AVCHD files in Vegas 7.0e, Build 216. Tried with the file extension MTS and M2TS.

I have no problems opening raw AVCHD files from the Sony HDR-SR1.



Rich

I had no problem converting them to Cineform Intermediate using HDLink...

Any links to 24p footage with motion or movement to check the artifacting and motion trails?

In ProRes or AIC?

A question about AVCHD's 24p version: is it like HV20's that requires a 3:2 pulldown removal, or is it real 24p? And if it's like HV20's, why is it so? AVCHD can write individual files on the disk so it's not limited by tape and HDV standard as the HV20 is.

the hg10's implementation of 24p is 24 in 60. the exact same process is required to remove pulldown as for 24p with the hv20. IMO i think they left it in a 60i stream because a "typical" consumer isn't going to mess with 24p, and because most playback systems a consumer will have/be dealing with are going to be interlaced, tv, dvd etc...

as for david's ? there are numerous files here with some motion (mostly a fountain)

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hg10/

Thank you Austin.

I have the water fountain clip.

I was hoping to see a pan and some movement like a football player for action for example.

Once the cam is released, no doubt this will help.

I'm trying reconcile the one review about motion trails and unusable 24p with your observations to the opposite.

from what i can tell from that other review is they were perhaps someone not used to working with 24p or 24-in-60 footage... on a computer screen the 24-in-60 looks horrible to someone who doesn't know what they're looking at...