Hello All,

I am planning to head to SE Asia soon, and begin a new career and a "backpack photojournalist". I have extensive background in video, but have since transitioned into still photography as my interest and passion has been peaked by straightforward documentary photography. I have sunk my money into a great D200 package and now it has been suggested to me to carry along a small video camera, for moving images as well as gathering sound bites for use with still slide shows.

I have been struggling with which camera to buy, right now I jsut bought a Canon HV20 and really like it, however a drawback is having to carry alot of tapes around, which is a big drawback considering I need to keep my pack as light as possible. So since I the news about the HG10, I am now tempted to take back my HV20 and get one of these AVCHD cameras and just carry a 500GB or 1TB hard drive around with me.

So my question is what do you guys think I should do, keep my HV20 , or get into one of these AVCHD cameras, and if so which do you think is the best for my situation. I love the idea of an LANC port, since I has Varizoom PL left over from my video days, and would be nice to get some crawling zooms etc. But I think Im looking for overall camera quality as opposed to jsut having a LANC port. I like canon and have owned many canon vidoe cameras, including XL2, XL1, GL2, and now the HV20. So I like canon, however these Panasonic AVCHD cams are looking pretty good, especially the 3 Chip cams.

Just looking for some input from all you guys out there.

Cheers,
James

I love the idea of an LANC port...Hi James, your best bet will be Sony, since neither Panasonic nor Canon AVCHD camcorders have LANC. Panasonic never used LANC; Canon used to but dropped it from their consumer camcorders several years ago (it's now found only on the larger Canon three-chip XL and XH camcorders).

Unfortunately, Sony have dropped LANC from their AVCHD camcorders as well. This is the *greatest* shortcoming I've seen in the Sony CX7 thus far. I've asked Sony Electronics (which is different than the broadcast group) to respond to my inquiries about why, and if they'll offer it in the future.
Unfortunately, the PR group at Sony Electronics doesn't seem to be nearly as responsive nor capable as the PR group at Sony Broadcast.

Shows how out of touch I am -- I wasn't aware of that.

Panasonic used to have an AUX jack, wonder if any of their AVCHD cams have it?

There is no AUX jack on any of the Panasonic consumer cams.

I think its only the CX7 that has dropped the LANC as well as a viewfinder. My SR7 has LANC as well as external mic and headphone jacks. I quite like the camera. IF you get the SR8 you can record at high quality for I think 14 hours. Stills can be recorded to HDD or Memory Card. If you get a FH100 battery it might last you for days!!!!

Ron Evans

Ron,
TMK the SR8 has also dropped the LANC. I don't have the cam in hand, but have the spec and training guide for it, and there is no reference to LANC. Are you certain it's on there?

Actually there is only a 3.5mm "remote" connection, near the start/stop switch. No LANC at all.
MS

For what it's worth, you could use a small laptop to capture footage from an HDV camera so you don't have to carry a lot of tapes. That might not be as convenient as using AVCHD, but then it would be easier to edit the resulting footage. (Editing support for AVCHD is limited and performance could be a problem.) If you do go with AVCHD, it might make sense to check out the 3-chip Panasonic camera, but I don't know enough about that to say whether it's worth getting. Let us know what you decide to do...

So LANC isn't the biggest concern, more so overall picture quality. 3 Chip vs. CMOS ? Also is there a AVCHD cam out there yet that records full 1920x1080 , or are they all 1440x1080 at this point ?

I am jsut looking for the best bang for my buck, I'm going to limit myself to $2000 I think I can get pretty much any of the consumer end cams for that price.

I really love the image the HV20 produces, I am wondering how much of a degradation will be in the HG10, what differences will I see between 1920x1080 and 1440x1080 ?

What would be the recommended shooting mode to get the best quality image, 1080i or using 24p ? I am pretty sure you can take 1080i images and convert them to 24p in post. But what is the better route ?


J

they're all 1440 x 1080 at this point, but that's of little consequence.
Same with "3 chip vs CMOS" (you can have a 3 CMOS imager system just like you can with CCD).

Compression is the bigger deal. If you have lots of motion, AVCHD and small camera spells "challenging."
Carrying a small HDD system such as the DR60 might be a better option for you, used with your existing HDV cam.

So far, we've owned/own 4 different AVCHD cams from Panasonic and Sony, and while the CX7 is pretty decent for what it is, it's the first that has impressed me at any level. But it's still not HDV or better, contrary to early reports that AVCHD at lower bitrates would be significantly better than HDV.

The remote connection above the DC in ( page 107 of manual) is the LANC connection. Works with my Sony and Manfrotto LANC controllers( REC , REC pause, standby On and OFF). Applies to SR7 and SR8 according to the manual.

Ron Evans

The remote connection of SR7 and SR8 is based upon LANC protocol, but is not a full bi-directional LANC(TM) connector. See http://www.boehmel.de/lanc.htm for more details.

Yes you are correct that it appears to be just a unidirectional remote. Doesn't pass timecode for instance to my DHR1000 but responds to start, stop, pause but not jog/shuttle control. But for my use of tripod control, start stop zoom etc, it works just fine. Which raises the issue of whether there is timecode embedded in AVCHD? Maybe converting to HDV to backup on tape has other advantages!!!

Ron Evans

I've done some backpack journalism with a small video camera as well.

I'd be more inclined to keep the HV20 and go with tapes. The reason being... for the weight of a portable drive and power supply, you could carry plenty of tapes instead. If the drive fails, you've lost everything. If you end up shooting more that you thought you would, blank miniDV tapes will be easy to find while traveling.

Here's an old travelblog I did with writing, photos, and video.. only I just used a digicams video clips for the video portion. I shoot HDV now. View from bottom up.

http://www.poppinfreshmedia.com/skipmexmc.html

Another one with no video:

http://www.poppinfreshmedia.com/skiphuntsouthafrica/skiphuntsouthafrica.html


The next one I'll use the HV10 for the video portion. Was looking at the HG10 too, but I think I'd rather go for the HV20 for the general stability of tape and the fact ALL my footage won't be on one drive. If I wasn't carrying gear in a backpack, possibly exposing it to extreme humidity, heat, rain, bumps and bashes... I wouldn't be so concerned. If backpacking.. sometimes your gear will be stacked on top of a bus... or lower deck of a rickety boat... or the back of a truck with chickens and pigs.. not always the best environ for a hard drive. But I've never had a tape completely fail. Rarely even get a dropout, but it has happened.

For backpacking, the tapes would be better than a portable hard drive. If you were staying in hotels though, a small hard drive would be fine. 40 gig seems awfully small though.

Unfortunately, Sony have dropped LANC from their AVCHD camcorders as well. This is the *greatest* shortcoming I've seen in the Sony CX7 thus far. I've asked Sony Electronics (which is different than the broadcast group) to respond to my inquiries about why, and if they'll offer it in the future.
Unfortunately, the PR group at Sony Electronics doesn't seem to be nearly as responsive nor capable as the PR group at Sony Broadcast.

Hi Spot -
Just FYI, there MAY still be a LANC capability on the CX7 - Sony is showing that the CX7 works with the HCC underwater housing, I presume this means that the "D" shaped A/V connector has a LANC in, as did the HC3 and HC7 so you can control the cam while in the housing. I picked one up (CX) to check it out, will know more in a couple days... I'm thinking that with a little reverse engineering, it might be possible to build an adapter from a standard miniplug LANC control to the "D" jack... may even get around to experimenting a bit!

I've fiddled with that A/V jack, and found an almost usable audio signal on the HC3 for headphone monitoring (needed a preamp IMO), never tried the mic inputs, but presume it would work, and that LANC thing has been an interesting additional function, sounds like with the CX7, it may deserve some attention... I've got the block diagrams and schematics from the service manuals for the HC3 and 7... just have to get brave and see what can be cobbled up!

I'm not even sure Sony's "first line" guys know much at all about the actual products/compatibility/capabilities, I've gotten outright incorrect information when calling in... I'd rather poke the thing when in hand and see what it can do! And maybe look over the service manual <wink>.

I'll post if I get to fiddle with this idea further - but I'm throwing it out in case anyone else wants to experiment at their own "risk"!

OK, got a CX7 in hand, and it functions with the LANC control signal built into the SPK-HCB, which conrols at the least on/off, W/T, mode, rec, and photo... doesn't fit any HCB plates quite right, but I'll just mod a spare... should work fine, think this is a good candidate to add a WA lens to the equation...

SO, there IS a LANC input per se, it's just hidden in the "D" shaped A/V connector. Think it's time to order a cheap import A/V cable to cannibalize! Shouldn't be a lot of trouble to mod a cable to have a minijack on it! Think maybe I'll try to put a mic in on it too! The SPK have a built in mic that goes in through that same input...

That should make sense, since the early specs specified remote through multi av jack. Can someone investigate the unidirectional aspect? The most important LANC function for me is the rec status command, since I use LANC on a helmet setup. (In short, I need to see wheter the cam is recording or not)

I'm really intrigued by the possibilities, so I'll probably get the old sharp stick out and poke at this in time...

One thing I noticed is the cam doesn't have to be on for the HCB to power it up - I think my other cams had to be on? Also noticed that it's smart enough to disable the flash (sort of a good idea for an underwater housing). You can definitely start and stop recording, and I would think the remote circuit could supply an indicator LED (saw something like this from a skydive supplier on ebay).

Just a matter of cobbling up an adapter... hmmm, let's see, I want a LANC jack, mic inputs, maybe a headphone out with preamp... think the LANC is the most critical, and hoping it will control focus... but as long as one is dreaming!

Still have to do some more picture quality tests with this little guy, but so far it's an amazing piece of tech. I definitely see the low light capability is improved over the HC7, contrary to some reviews, and PQ looks pretty darn good so far, but golly gosh a LANC jack woud have been nice!

One peculiar observation, I notice because this cam is SO light it seems to be FAR easier to keep steady in the hand - there's no mass there to counteract! I can practically run with the thing handheld and keep a shot steady! Interesting... gives new meaning to "run and gun"!

How about Panasonic's AG-HSC1U Pro AVCHD 3CCD High Definition SD/SDHC Camcorder?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/482162-REG/Panasonic_AG_HSC1U_AG_HSC1U_AVCHD_3CCD_High.html
Looks pretty impressive.
Thoughts?

I wish Adobe Premiere Pro edited AVC.

SO, there IS a LANC input per se, it's just hidden in the "D" shaped A/V connector.

Do you have any more info about this? I am interested in the CX7 but need to use a lanc record button (Like the CamEye http://www.skytools.m.se/cameyesport.htm) I'm willing to mod a D connector cable.

I'm hoping to find out later this week... busy times with the holidays, but this is becoming a priority question - after shooting some with the CX7, I'm seriously thinking going tapeless - and a LANC control would certainly be a helpful thing to have.

I'm certain the capability is there, as the HC3 and 5/7 both use the same A/V jack with the HCB/HCC sport packs, and it is called out as a LANC in the service manuals for those cams.

Silly question... is there enough of a market for an adapter to make it worthwhile for me to design with the idea of making a few of these, or would most rather have a diagram for DIY?

If the mod is reasonably priced, then I think so. Otherwise I think I have a correct diagram, see link: http://www.321govideo.com/av_out_pinout.jpg

Now, the only thing the D connector doesn't have is "Jack In". Do you know what this does?

Another option is to take the camera apart and see if the board has the LANC plug soldier locations. If so, then just add some wires and route it out of the camera somehow.

Hi John -
Sorry I haven't had time to post on this sooner, but I just got the chance to work on this LANC question a bit more...

The LANC input is definitely THERE on the camera - tested with Sony and Giottos (including focus functions) LANC controllers... that's the good news.

THE BAD NEWS is that there is another connection on that A/V plug that has to connect somehow to tell the camera there is a LANC signal coming in on the two leads... the Sports Pack electronic modules have that magic circuitry... I used an older HCA module which has both the A/V and a standard LANC plug - I could parallel a controller on that and everything worked perfectly...

SO, now it's a matter of reverse engineering the circuitry on that stupid board... got to figure out what that other lead connects to and how, and if there is additional circuitry required to activate the LANC (and mic inputs). I'm hoping it's a simple circuit... probably not, and it's of course SMC, so time for the magnifier headband!!

ANYONE got a service manual for any of the Sony Sports Packs???? A block diagram or schematics would save a LOT of time...

I've got a CX7 working 100% with a Sony and a Giottos LANC right now on my bench - my "adapter" currently is a pile of test leads and hemostats, but I will be able to put these together or offer instructions.

SO, the CX7 has a LANC input, AND it can be accessed!!! I'll start another thread since this is sort of off topic...