Hi all.

Can someone with the above setup try this little test for me and see if you get the same results as I did this afternoon? I can't figure out whether this is a ZR or an A1 issue.

Connect the ZR - 1000 to the Lanc port. Fire up the camera. Set the focus switch to Manual focus. Zoom in 90% on something about 3 - 4 metres (10 - 13 feet) away. Use the focus buttons on the ZR to try to get the object in focus. Note the distance figures on your display.

I was trying to get some footage using my new jib and had totally had a gut full of the Instant AF going everywhere but where I wanted it to, so with great reluctance decided to try manual. Every time I so much as "pinged" either of the focus buttons on the ZR, the distance figures jumped at least 1.4 metres, from, say, 3.4 to 4.8.

No matter how I used the buttons I could not get the distance figures more accurate than to within a metre.

I haven't reviewed the footage as yet but from what I could see on my 7" screen the camera was indeed jumping focus by huge leaps making it impossible to get the chosen object in focus.

If anyone has the ZR - 2000 could you try this as well?

I'm really hoping someone will say this is a bust ZR - 1000 rather than a total inablity to manual focus with accuracy with either of the ZR's.

Thanks in advance,

CS

As this seems to be an A1/ G1 issue (this behaviour hasn't to my knowledge been reported with any other Canon camera) perhaps this would be better moved to the Canon XH A1 forum instead?

Pretty please.

CS

Further investigation suggests (my) ZR - 1000 steps in a fixed sequence which varies the focus in bigger or smaller steps dependant on distance/ zoom depth.

IE, at short distances and full zoom it steps in huge chunks, longer distances and less zoom it steps in much smaller chunks.

The bottom line is this:

I cannot use the ZR - 1000 (unless it is faulty) to control the A1 on the jib at distances less than approximately 15 metres (50 feet) unless the lens is zoomed out to almost 30%, and get it to focus anywhere near the actual focal plane required.

This means, in a nutshell, my plan of using the A1 and jib for wildlife video is completely shot.

If someone can confirm the ZR - 2000 does not behave this way (or that my ZR - 1000 is cactus), I will be only too glad to hear it.

Just what I didn't need - yet another "I can't focus my A1" problem on top of all the others.

I am starting to think I may need another sort of camera for this - the A1 seems destined to be an "urban legend" and a "wildlife videographers nightmare" at one and the same time.

Somebody please tell me I'm wrong with this!

CS

PS. Thanks Mods...

Did you set your focus ring sensitivity to 01- SLOW?

(see custom functions - [FOCUS RING CTRL] Focus Ring Control)

It's on slow, tho' "slow" still isn't anywhere like slow enough. The manual focus ring on the lens works fine (well, as "fine" as the manual focus ring ever works) and can, with a very deft touch, notch up in 100 mm (4") increments from practically 0 to 10 metres in manual.

This problem is with the working of the ZR - 1000 (or not, as the case may be). It would appear, as I said, that the ZR sends a fixed length "focus" pulse/ data string to the camera which at shorter distances/ greater zoom results in huge jumps in the focus setting. As the distance increases/ the zoom decrease the pulse/ data string results in progressively shorter focus jumps.

Thus, at 4 metres distance and almost full zoom (my target critter is only 2" tall BTW) the focus jumps well in excess of a metre a pop (that's 3 to 4 FEET!). About as much use as an ash tray on a motorbike in HD land.

I really do hope someone can pull a rabbit out of a hat on this one (if you'll excuse the expression).

CS

I strongly suspect that "the problem" is not with the ZR - 1000 at all. Whilst the "issue" becomes apparent when using it, I now believe that what I'm seeing is a firmware bug in the A1 itself (lest there is, actually, a hard fault somewhere).

I've tested this on my XL1s, and the firmware in that camera DOES take into account the focus distance/ zoom ratio when moving the lens for focus under ZR - 1000 command. The A1 is not (apparently) applying the same correction under ZR command as it does when using the focus ring. Hence why I can manually focus in 100 mmmm (4") increments using the focus ring and not when using the ZR.

Can anyone either confirm or deny?

CS

Hey Chris, I think you hit the nail on the head, I remember reading a firmware update on the a1 that had something to do with the focus. I cant remember where i read it or can confirm it for sure. Sorry i cant help you but my guess is that its a firmware issue. Good Luck. I have the same controller and will see if i can find the information.

I've just fired off an e - mail to Canon Photographice Services here in NZ, asking if this is a possibility, guess I'll just have to wait and see what they say.

If anyone can confirm/ deny this behaviour with their system I'd appreciate it.

CS

I did a set of tests today to get more of a handle on what, exactly, was going on. To cut it short:-

At Z99 (full zoom in) the .1 metre (4") incremental focus is gone beyond 2.8 metres.

At Z90 it's down to 1.8 metres.

At Z80 it's down to less that 1 metre.

I was just sitting pondering further tests when it occured to me that this looked very similar to the results of having the "Focus Ring Control" set to "Normal".

A quick check of the manual and aaaaaaarrrggggg! The "Normal" / "Slow" setting ONLY works on the Focus Ring - NOT the Lanc focus (well, if the manual doesn't mention it, I guess it doesn't do it).

Which means Canon are probably going to call this a "feature" and thus not deserving of a "fix".

Now, I'm not going to pre-suppose how they (Canon) are going to respond on this subject, but if the answer is "niet" to a fix then, in a nutshell, a Canon A1/ G1 (and probably the H1 to boot) on a boom/ jib/ crane in circumstances where AF doesn't work is practically uncontrolable focus wise.


Just thought I'd share that little gem with one and all.

More news as and when I get a response from Canon.

CS

i have a bepop zoe controller for my fig rig that can be used with a jib arm by use of an extension cord.. i have had no issues using it to focus.. but it has a variable speed zoom/focus dial on the controller itself.. which appears to be independant of the settings used on the camera..

im not familiar with the controller you are using but perhaps one of these would be suitable instead?

I've just been asked by Canon what the firmware level of the camera is (1.0.0.0)

Anyone else out there with a PAL A1 got an update on this firmware level?

VCR / playback mode.
Card mode.
System Setup
Firmware Level

Thanks,

CS

OK, well, the Support Centre in Auckland have tested their G1 with a ZR1000 and have, as far as they can tell, replicated the issue. So, apparently, have Canon Australia, tho' as their test was performed with a ZR2000 they are not entirely convinced it's exactly the same problem.

The interesting bit is this, there is a new firmware release for the A1/ G1 (shhhh, don't tell anyone) which apparently "addresses issues with the ZR1/2000 remote controllers", amongst other things. Whether it addresses my particular issue is left in considerable doubt at this stage.

More details of what's in this release I do not have (yet) BUT my A1 is (or will be very shortly) winging it's way to Auckland to have the new firmware installed (gratis), so that I can field test the whole ball of wax.

Yippee!

CS

has been done and, yes, the focus function with the ZR1000 is better, tho' not by much.

At

Z99 it's improved from 2.8 metres to 3.9 metres

Z90 1.9 metres to 2.2 metres

Z80 1.4 to 1.7


As you can see, not exactly startling results. It is conceivable that this upgrade didn't actually deal with this problem at all and all I'm seeing is a random change brought on by camera temp etc.

Unfortunately I still haven't had any details from Canon of what, exactly, this upgrade was supposed to acheive apart from a vague "problems with Lanc remote controllers", which didn't help much.

More details as and when.


CS

This is also being discussed here:

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=103258

Canon NZ have now confirmed my measurements, and come to the same conclusion - it's better, but not by much.

The good news for all you non - Canon Lanc users out there is that this upgrade does address issues with functions not working/ working correctly with these Lancs. What issues/ Lancs are not detailed. Guess if you have an issue you'd better give Canon a hoi and see if they'll do this upgrade for you.


CS

Chris -

I received my ZR-2000 today and was curious if I would experience a similar situation to your own. I didn't have the means to conduct a very rigorous test, but from the little I did, I didn't run into anything I would consider unexpectedly problematic. Focus speed on cam was set at normal. Instead of buttons, the ZR-2000 has a small focus dial with notched increments. Forgive my approximate (and non-metric) measurements, but if I set the lens at full telephoto and focus at about...

5 feet: each notch of the ZR's focus dial changes the focus a tiny fraction of an inch. I literally have to fully spin the dial 4 or 5 times to change the focus distance from say 4.8 to 4.9 feet. (By 'spins' of the dial, I don't mean a complete rotation, but more like a role of the thumb.)

15 feet: each notch moves the focus distance about a 1/2 inch, or 24 notches (maybe one spin) to go from 15 to 16 feet.

30 feet: about 20 notches to progress 1 foot.

At full wide, each notch might change the focus a foot or more. It would be nice to have more control over how it acts in each situation, perhaps, but it seems to be working according to prediction. Am I doing something differently than I should, to reproduce where things might start going wrong?

It's entirely possible the ZR2000 has a different mechanism for communicating than the ZR1000 (which relies on forward/ backward buttons) and thus the 2000 "looks" more like the actual focus ring on the A1.

This may explain why Canon Australia were a bit dubious about their findings with the 2000 regarding this problem.

From your figures it would appear that the 2000 is acting as one would expect, certainly not the schizophrenic mess the 1000 is.

Interestingly, it sounds like your 2000 actually works better than the focus ring (mine, anyway) - at full wide with my FR on "slow" it's very difficult to stop the focus making gigantic jumps backwards/ forwards.

Interesting indeed!

Thanks for that, food for thought.


CS

PS. I think as a result of what you've said, I'll contact Canon and sus out the chances of getting a ZR2000 to test this behavior- it may just be the answer I'm looking for. If my A1 misbehaves with a 2000 then it would seem I have an actual camera problem. You've made my day!

The 2000's focus does have a refreshingly manual feel to it, but I'm not sure how useful it would be to actively adjust focus in a moving, unpredictable environment. The tiny wheel is the size of a volume dial on an old transistor radio and just doesn't have enough torque to respond quickly. Nor could it be used as a kind of remote follow focus, since its speed is ramped rather than constant, not to mention the impossibility of measuring and marking points. As a final fine tuner, though, I think it will be quite handy.

Something I thought of after I posted - I did notice a slight weirdness when doing tests. While not constant or repeatable, there were a couple of occasions where, let's say focus is set manually at 15 feet: by engaging the ZR wheel, literally just touching it, the distance on the LCD would immediately jump to maybe 14 feet, before properly shifting, as if by the LANC signal suddenly seizing control away from the camera's internals, a jar of the focus elements would result. I didn't have an HD monitor to see if a pulse was visible, so it could be just an hiccup in the numerical readout, but it wouldn't be difficult to imagine how this could become problematic. Maybe this is something the firmware addresses?

All that said, however, the PAF button is mainly what I bought it for, and it is miraculous.

Good luck with your further investigations.

what Canon Australia found with theirs, not as erratic as the 1000 but not exactly what one would expect either.

Problem was, Canon NZ only had a 1000 to test, Canon Aus. only had the 2000.

I've e - mailed Canon NZ to see if they can get their hands on a 2000 and do some side by side testing.

For my purposes, where the "target" is usually many yards/ metres in front of the background and way too small to let the IAF get a lock, I need something that will let me set the manual focus absolutely spot on at a certain distance and keep it there. The IAF is useless as it will always return to the background, the "PAF" ditto and with the ZR1000, the blasted thing is all over the place like a dogs dinner, and won't stop when I take my finger off the button.

It's a bit like playing the slots at Vegas, hit the button, figures keep incrementing in the viewfinder and where it stops - nobody knows! Hit the back button and it starts all over again.


[Just in case anyone missed this - can't use the Focus Ring as, yeah, camera is 13 feeet away on the end of my new (unusable) jib!]

Thanks for the input J.G. Shall keep everyone posted.


CS

This just in from Canon NZ:

Quote.


"This is the answer I have received from Canon inc via Australia.



Hi Chris, (editors note, the guy at Canon NZ is also a Chris)

Canon Inc. has confirmed that the firmware update was intended to fix the communication issue with LANC device made by other brands. e.g. not responding to certain functions, no start/stop function etc. It does not "fix" the issue that your customer is complaining. Unfortunately there is no solution for it. It is a product limitation but is not a design issue. Please see below.

The camera's focus ring response to the speed of the ring movement. If the ring moves quickly, the focusing steps will be greater. If the ring moves slowly, the focusing steps will be finer.

The dial on ZR1000/ZR2000 has fixed preset speed(s) - balance between steps and focusing speed. Therefore, it is not as precise as camera's focusing ring when it is moved at the slower/slowest speed.

Canon has never said this firmware update fixes the issue the customer described. "

Unquote.

Basically, unless I can find a remote controller, made by somebody other than Canon, that allows for minute focus increments, that's it, period, final - no jib operation requiring accurate manual focus with either an XH A1 or G1 camera.

I cannot tell you just how gutted I am. All that planning, investment, work and effort to be taken out at this stage by a bl***y Lanc controller!


I simply find it totally unbelieveable. Time to go kick something REAL HARD! (no, not the cat).

Any and all suggestions as to how to get out of this mess greatly appreciated.


CS

Chris
If Canon NZ can let you try a ZR-2000 it might be worth the effort. Using the 2000 focus wheel I am seeing consistent incruments of 0.1m till around 6m then 0.2m to around 10m rising rapidly and consistently from there to infinity (as does the focus ring in that range). This would appear to be a lot better than the figures you were getting with the 1000 jog buttons in the 3-5m range.

Canon NZ are currently trying to source a ZR2000 for that very reason.

I queried a couple of points in the latest "JapGlish" response I had from Canon, and have had a response which was not at all satisfactory.

I intend to post results as and when the ZR2000 has been sourced and I have had a chance to test it out.

Incidently, in the interim, I e - mailed VariZoom with a pretty detailed description of the situation regarding the ZR1000, and basically asked them whether their controllers were any better.

Their answer is, strangely, absent. I suspect this is more than a controller problem and that other controller manufacturers may well have fallen into the same hole with the A1/ G1 cameras.

However, I won't know anything till I have a 2000 to try, which will be at Canon's convenience.

Rest assured, I will not let go of this, as too much is riding on it. The thought of having to change a complete camera system because of this rediculous behaviour is just so gut wrenching as to be untrue.

Thanks for your input, I've had very limited info on the 2000's behaviour with these cams, it's sounding encourageing.

More as and when.

Thanks,


CS

Chris:

Did you ever get better focus control with a LANC controller on your A1?

Thanks

Stuart

No.

I never managed to get a loaner from Canon and was left contemplating buying a ZR2000.

As the video budget was (and is) currently $"0" and I had too many other things demanding my time, it all went in the "too hard" basket.

As I'm currently waiting to see what Canon does (eventually) with the A1's replacement AND I'm contemplating the jump up to a higher level and away from HDV/ AVCHD, I've just put this annoyance on hold.


CS