Question:
This may have been covered....but, is the expected shelf life of Blu-ray burned on consumers burners higher than DVD? I believe XDCAM optical is essentially Blu-ray in its basic burning technology (right?).

If so I think I will do a combo of hard drives and Blu-ray backups.....as well as probably RAID storage for my online work. I was thinking of going with the LTO drives but it pains me to go to a archive that is slow to access from (unless its changed a lot since I last used tape backups).

B

- Most of my work is short-form training and TV spots so I'll shoot, ingest, burn and store.


This sounds like a good idea, but there is something to consider here... If you first ingest the material to your Mac (I assume you mean via the XDCAM Transfer utility) the .mov files on your hard drive will in the future only be able to be read in a Final Cut. If in the future when re-edit time comes your situation changes and you find yourself working in a different platform, say AVID, your archived video will be useless. If you save just the .mp4 files you will be OK on the PC but Final Cut will not be able to read them. You could save the entire file structure on the card which should work.

My means of archiving is very similar and I also run Final Cut but I do it all from a PC. On a PC I use Sony's Clip Browser software to export all the materials on the card to a .mxf file. The export is a faster then real time process. about 4x would be my guesstimate. Then like you, I burn these .mxf files to DVD.

The advantages to me are clear in that I end up with a cost effective archive which is Mac and PC compatible. The footage archived remains in it's orginal native format. The XDCAM transfer software on the Mac can import the .mxf files with no issues. Once the master archive is produced, the DVD then goes to the robot for automated production of multiple backup copies.

The disadvantage to this is that unlike using the XDCAM transfer software on the Mac, the Clip Browser on the PC does not have the ability to mark points and export sub clips. So if you really only wanted to keep in the archive only 10 seconds of a 30 second shot, you are out of luck, you have to take the whole 30 seconds.

My EX1 samples can be downloaded from ftp://vegas:demo@download.gotfootage.com

David Schmerin
www.GotFootageHD.com

My means of archiving is very similar and I also run Final Cut but I do it all from a PC. On a PC I use Sony's Clip Browser software to export all the materials on the card to a .mxf file. The export is a faster then real time process. about 4x would be my guesstimate. Then like you, I burn these .mxf files to DVD.[/url]

I don't quite understand. I was hoping to copy the files off the card to my pc and then burn a dvd or blu-ray disc from that. I thought that would leave the files in their orginal format.

This is what I do with the files from my v1u on my dr-60.

Are you saying one just can't copy the files off an SxS card?

thanks.

If in the future when re-edit time comes your situation changes and you find yourself working in a different platform, say AVID, your archived video will be useless.

That's a really good point that I hadn't considered. I'm treating my archive just like I would treat the 1000+ miniDV tapes I have cataloged in my library. I think when my camera arrives, I'm going to test out this workflow...

(I'm assuming that when you hook up the camera to a MacPro, it just shows up as a device, right?)

Shoot, attach camera to MacPro, use toast to copy the image of the card to a DL-DVD. Label DVD and store, then ingest from camera to FCP.


Now... if I'm using 2 8 gig cards in the camera, does the camera show up as 2 devices or just 1? and what about when I'm shooting with a 16 gig card?

Using a G5 but MacPro should be the same. Each card in the camera shows up as a device.

I think the best thing is drop the folder on to a disc. You'll have the original files and folder structure.

Now what to do with 16GB card which doesn't fit on DVD-DL. That's why Blu-ray will make it easier.

Correct me if I'm wrong but LaCie makes a Blu-Ray burner that's mac friendly but right now, DVD Studio Pro can't author blu-ray ready dvd's.

However, the drive would still work as a big archive drive, right?

Authoring is one thing. Archival of data is another. I believe Toast will allow you burn data to Blu-ray. Adobe has Intel Mac compatible software that can author Blu-ray. I STRONGLY suspect Apple will announce Blu-ray support at Macworld in 10 days. FastMac also makes Blu-ray burners for the Mac.

Correct me if I'm wrong but LaCie makes a Blu-Ray burner that's mac friendly but right now, DVD Studio Pro can't author blu-ray ready dvd's.

However, the drive would still work as a big archive drive, right?

All this time I thought Iomega's REV drives were actually tape drives but it looks like they're removable hard drives - spinning platters and everything.

That cements my optical disc solution.

I can still find CD readers that can read 15 year old CD data discs. On the other hand I don't readily have D2 deck to play my D2 tapes. I have Syquest EZ135 discs that would take some work to find a working reader. I have Iomega Zip discs of varying sizes that would require me to find a player.

It seems optical discs readers/burners remain backward compatibility. I think you'll be able to read a Blu-ray disc in 15 years as long as the disc itself holds up.

Archival is as much about "player/reader" availability as it is about the media itself.

I have visions of people with JVC HDV 720p60 tapes and in 15 years finding only Sony HDV players. Some years back I worked on a preservation project in which the source was 1/2" reel to reel video (and there were several formats). Cleaning the tapes were one thing but finding a working compatible player was a real bear.

All this time I thought Iomega's REV drives were actually tape drives but it looks like they're removable hard drives - spinning platters and everything.

That cements my optical disc solution.

In my experience, tape / archival backups are complete hardware/software solutions or not at all.

I once kept a whole bunch of feature film edits and mixes on 8mm data tape, with a SCSI tape player that I kept in an old machine specifically for the purpose of retrieval at a later date (BTW that old machine still has a 3.5", a 5.25" and an 8" FDD drive...)

Around 3 years later I was able to pull the data off the 8mm tapes and get them onto a DLT drive.

Five years after that I tried to restore the DLT drive data (to move them onto an LTO drive) but was told by the software manufacturer (who is still a major player in this arena) that the current version of my $300 archival software no longer controls the older DLT drive, and that I would have to pay an extra $200+ to get the DLT data converted to LTO.

When I told them about my old 8mm tapes the kid on the other end of the line practically laughed in my face.

Needless to say I got my old machine out of the cupboard, fired it right up, got out my original 8mm tapes (which I still have in storage) and did it all again myself, this time from 8mm to LTO, for nothing.

But as you can see, this means holding on not only to the tapes themselves, but also to a viable recorder/player and the controlling software that works with that player. For as many years as you need to keep your storage going, or at least to get you to the next level.

Back then 8mm was the thing. Then DLT. Then LTO Now it's LTO3, soon to be LTO4. Everybody swears backwards compatibility with their systems, but only a few actually deliver it (without charging extra, that is).

Good thing is this: all those ole 8mm tapes (around 60 of them)? The data from them fits into a couple of LTO2 tapes. And probably just a tiny portion of the next generation of archival storage..

I tend to use the third newest computer in my collection for backups, pretty much dedicated to it, BTW, so I don't get frustrated with backup and retrieval times. The newest one is usually on editing and render intensive work, then the second one is media management, ingest and outputs.

So don't junk your old computers!

My means of archiving is very similar and I also run Final Cut but I do it all from a PC. On a PC I use Sony's Clip Browser software to export all the materials on the card to a .mxf file. The export is a faster then real time process. about 4x would be my guesstimate. Then like you, I burn these .mxf files to DVD.
The advantages to me ... I end up with a cost effective archive which is Mac and PC compatible.

Smart and platform independent solution.
We have to understand that it is best to liberate our workflows from what we are suggested by the software industry and opt for kind of "abstract" files that run on various platforms, under various OS' and with many apps.
.mxf is such an independent solution.

To add a final touch on the hardware side, I'd use a Macbook Pro or a Mac Pro (both Intel) and run Sony's Clip Browser Software under Parallels/Win on any of those two platforms mentioned.

In my experience, tape / archival backups are complete hardware/software solutions or not at all.
I'd rather opt for "not at all" and go for a workflow as outlined in post above.

I don't quite understand. I was hoping to copy the files off the card to my pc and then burn a dvd or blu-ray disc from that. I thought that would leave the files in their orginal format.

That's exactly what I do and it works fine (at least on the mac). Using the XDCAM file transfer app is more time consuming than just duplicating the mounted SxS card.

I just duplicate the cards, rename the copy to something meaningful and then point the transfer app at that copy to import the clips or subclips to the editor when the time comes.

I haven't solved archival for myself yet, but I'll probably go with the XDCAM drive and disks as that will also give me the ability to send content to others who will recognize the format / media and be able to handle it.
It will also give me the ability to upgrade to a bigger XDCAM camera should business require it in the future and continue using the same media.

I'm using Revpro 35 for archiving now and will adopt 70 when it comes, as a couple of hire houses in London will use this as a "shippable" commodity, it is robust and fast, and I can't see many hire companies "lending" their Express media to clients to offload, at least not until it all gets really cheap. I can edit directly from the Rev Pro drive (firewire) at 1440x1080, although I doubt it'll manage full HQ 1920x1080 without a render, or transfering the files needed to HDD.

Also, I'm about to add a Sony laptop, with twin 160gb (raid possible) drives, 4gb ram and blueray burner, as well as Express 34/54 slot, to the system. Not a bad little tool for 1200 euros.

Paul

I can still find CD readers that can read 15 year old CD data discs. On the other hand I don't readily have D2 deck to play my D2 tapes.

That's funny you would say that... About 3 hours before you made that post, a client of mine called me and asked if I could author a DVD for a video he made less than 10 years ago. He's sending me the master... on D2.

It took me about half and hour but I found a place in LA that would do the transfer for me.

I have had a lot of hard disk failures so I would opt as well for a blueray archival method.
But I am still a fan of putting the tape in the shelf...

would it make any sense to shoot in 35 mbit and then archive to DV-tape (at 25 mbit HDV)?
OK, there is a loss of quality but still a trace when all the other archives failed... HD Crash, BR Disc unreadable and so on...

would it make any sense to shoot in 35 mbit and then archive to DV-tape (at 25 mbit HDV)?
OK, there is a loss of quality but still a trace when all the other archives failed... HD Crash, BR Disc unreadable and so on...

Probably not worth the time. In order to have your archives really worth anything you need to be able to restore them and use them when you need the footage. In order for your timelines to make sense and have the Time Codes make sense, you would have to archive to dv tape as HDV, then capture off that tape, then edit. By then, you've wasted the benefits of tapeless workflow.

I've got miniDV tape that's about 10 years old and I pray to St. Oxide everytime a client calls up and wants a reedit. I don't think miniDV tape is as robost as one would hope. I've had some issues with old tape. On the other hand, I've got CD-Rs that are 15 years old and read as good as new.

A question which is loosely related to this topic:

What workflow do you guys use with the EX1?

Our studio has just bought a couple and they'll be arriving soon.

So you're out in the field shooting.....fill up your memory cards.....what happens next?
Do you download them straight into a laptop?
Are there any storage devices just to dump the data straight onto, without the need for a laptop?
Do you store the data straight to a RAID array so that as soon as the data comes off the card, you've got a backup?

My concerns are that i'm often out on the road for a few days in a row shooting in various locations without going back to the studio in between. In the past, i always had the tapes to turn back to if any hard drives etc fail, but now i'll be re-using the flash cards in the EX1.

If I were in that position, I would take my MacBook Pro with the expresscard slot and clone the cards to DVD-DL. If you're using 16 gig cards you can split them using clip browser.

Then delete all clips from the card and go at it the next day.

Rob

Interior (set piece) scenes - bring your main NLE and 23" screen, go tethered if you want to. Get everything onto your main editing HDDs as soon as you can, make backups, either DVD, Blu Ray, other HDDs, whatever, probably two sets if you can.
Triple check for data integrity the hard way. (you might have a night shift AE or put your editor on nights on for this, it's so important)

Erase and reshoot.

Exterior (location) scenes - laptop to DVD and backup to USB powered HDDs. They're small, cheap laptop drive enclosures that run power off the USB port of your laptop.

That evening, or when you're next at AC power access at your shooting HQ, port to your main NLE and backup as above, triple check for data integrity and then erase originals.

Apple carts (hand trucks with a G5, eSATA RAIDs and 23" screens on them) are pretty common on every set these days.

All this time I thought Iomega's REV drives were actually tape drives but it looks like they're removable hard drives - spinning platters and everything.

That cements my optical disc solution.

I haven't used REV but personally I would never consider any archival solution which involves Iomega products. Over the years I've had far more Bernoulli, Zip and Jaz discs fail than optical - and I've used a lot more optical discs as well. I still have files on Bernoulli and Jazz discs which would take some work to track down drives which I could use with any modern system - and though I still have a Zip drive around here I've long ago moved everything important off the discs because so many started failing after a year or two.

In fact, I have some of my earliest photoshop work stored on two formats - bernoulli and cd (I remember paying $50 to have the disc burned in 1994!) - and while the bernoulli disc may or may not even be readable (if I could find a drive and system to access it on) the cd is still readable in all five of my current computers.

Just got the double DVD Set "Mastering the Sony PMW-EX1" by Vortex Media, featuring Doug Jensen. Learned lots of new techniques & details, but here's his take on Archiving:

First he uses only 8Gb SxS cards, because they fit neatly onto DL DVDs, which is one of his archive media, which he keeps in a separate building from the second:
The second is external 250Gb Hard Drives, which will take 13 hours of HQ footage.

He says the chances of both media becoming corrupt at the same time is virtually nil. The cost of this double archive is 65 cents per Gb, which compares favourably with most other methods, including BluRay.

Andrew - i can see where you're coming from with the laptop approach. Have you done this already? How long does it take to clone an 8gb card onto DVD?

And Chris, thanks for your response - that system would work on a larger scale production, but at the moment, we tend to produce more short docu films, a lot about sport, often shot in a day.
Its a case of rock up at the location, film all day to a pretty hectic schedule, then off to a hotel for the evening then onto a new location the following day.

In the past, shooting with the z1, you fill up your hours worth of tape, shove in a new one and you're good to go again.
So using the EX1, is it relatively quick? painless? simple? just to clone the card on the macbook, or would it be quicker dumping it down to a USB drive or something, then backing up later that evening maybe?

A slightly more expensive solution that i've already thought of is just to buy more memory cards, but they're pretty pricy at the moment!

Andrew - i can see where you're coming from with the laptop approach. Have you done this already? How long does it take to clone an 8gb card onto DVD?

All theory my friend, my camera arrives next week. ;)

But like an Olympic diver, I feel like I've gone through the motions in my head a hundred times before jumping into the water.

I'll post cloning benchmark results when the camera comes. However, my MBPro is only a 6x burner.

Smart and platform independent solution.
We have to understand that it is best to liberate our workflows from what we are suggested by the software industry and opt for kind of "abstract" files that run on various platforms, under various OS' and with many apps.
.mxf is such an independent solution.

To add a final touch on the hardware side, I'd use a Macbook Pro or a Mac Pro (both Intel) and run Sony's Clip Browser Software under Parallels/Win on any of those two platforms mentioned.

Sad as this is, we seem to have found a problem with our archiving solution... FCP6 can not read the .mxf files.

If you try to use the transfer software on the Mac to import .mxf files produced by the clip browser software on the PC you are going to have a few problems if you shoot in HQ 35mbs mode:

1) FCP and Clip Browser will not be able to read 720 .mxf files produced by Clip Browser.

2) FCP and Clip Browser will read 1080 .mxf files produced by Clip Browser but the but the scaling of the video will be seriously out of whack

3) If you try to bring in your video to Vegas first, Vegas can only render out 1440*1080/60i video

Back to the drawing board

David Schmerin
www.GotFootageHD.com

Samples of my EX1 footage can be downloaded from ftp://vegas:demo@download.gotfootage.com

FCP6 can not read the .mxf files.

David, I'm not sure about what you say.
www.flip4mac.com sell a plug in that allows exactly that.
Go to their site and download the trial software.
Unfortunately I don't have FCP6 yet so I can only import into FCP5
but not edit the .mxf files. But the import is no problem at all.

Are there any statements from Apple about .mxf file use
with FCP 6?

I could try and get related info elsewhere if so desired.
Just let me know.

Here is what FCP users might want to know:

Expect brand new MXF workflow with FCP round about January,
offering stunning speed.

Q.: Does the new workflow make use of mxf files within FCP,
no QT conversion necessary?

A.: YES

Q.: Will it be possible to write MXF files right out of FCP?

A.: YES

Q.: Will support of meta data and proxies be extended?

A.: Meta data YES
Proxies: to be looked into, but probably YES.

David, I'm not sure about what you say.
www.flip4mac.com sell a plug in that allows exactly that.
Go to their site and download the trial software.
Unfortunately I don't have FCP6 yet so I can only import into FCP5
but not edit the .mxf files. But the import is no problem at all.

Are there any statements from Apple about .mxf file use
with FCP 6?

I could try and get related info elsewhere if so desired.
Just let me know.

Peter,

I think you missed something here in that I am specifically referring to footage shot in the 35mb/HQ mode on the EX1.

XDCAM-HD and XDCAM-EX "HQ" codecs are not the same. All existing XDCAM-HD formats are already supported. Even Flip4Mac can not deal with the new 35mb 1920*1080 or 1280*720 formats as it would seem every format they support is HDV based or 1440*1080.

If you would like to test my theory, please feel free to download some of my test footage and try for yourself.

ftp://vegas:demo@download.gotfootage.com

Download the files 24pFlag_01.mxf or 24pFlag_02.mxf and please let me know of a way to import these file in to FCP as they are both 1280*720p/24 .mxf files exported via Sony's Clip Browser software.

David Schmerin
www.gotfootageHD.com

Here is what FCP users might want to know:

Expect brand new MXF workflow with FCP round about January,
offering stunning speed.

Q.: Does the new workflow make use of mxf files within FCP,
no QT conversion necessary?

A.: YES

Q.: Will it be possible to write MXF files right out of FCP?

A.: YES

Q.: Will support of meta data and proxies be extended?

A.: Meta data YES
Proxies: to be looked into, but probably YES.

May one ask the source of the information?

David Schmerin
www.GotFootageHD.com

May one ask the source of the information?


You may always ask (asking is never forbidden) :-)
Let me put it that way: I don't remember his name +g*
But the guy is at the source.

Download the files 24pFlag_01.mxf or 24pFlag_02.mxf and please let me know of a way to import these file in to FCP as they are both 1280*720p/24 .mxf files exported via Sony's Clip Browser software.

Imported into FCP 5.1.4 as .mxf via flip4mac plug-in. During import
process converted into a .mov file (QT), Codec unknown. Other details:

1280x720, 23,97 fps, 35.90 MBit/s, Timecode at clip start: 02:44:17.20.

Does that help until FCP(next) will be available? Should be even far
better with FCP 6.0.2.

Imported into FCP 5.1.4 as .mxf via flip4mac plug-in. During import
process converted into a .mov file (QT), Codec unknown. Other details:

1280x720, 23,97 fps, 35.90 MBit/s, Timecode at clip start: 02:44:17.20.

Does that help until FCP(next) will be available? Should be even far
better with FCP 6.0.2.

Peter,

Sadly this does not help for two reasons...

1) I don't think it works. I did as you suggested and all looked good. The file appeared to import correctly with the proper data displayed. I could read the format and frame rate and everything else. Once the video imported, trying to place the video on a timeline or in the preview window caused a General Error to occur in FCP-6x.

2) If you are in the business of delivering material to customers on varying platforms, is it fair to them to say, Thank you for choosing me but if you want to use my stuff you have to buy a $500.00 3rd party plug-in, if it worked.

David Schmerin
www.GotFootageHD.com

My EX1 samples can be seen at ftp://vegas:demo@download.gotfootage.com

David,

thanks for helping me out as I do not yet
have FCP 6. So let's keep waiting for the
new anticipated version. Hope this one will
fill those needs.

So I just finished my first gig with the ex1. (:30 spot for a local credit union)

I really like this camera and it worked really well in the field. Here's my archive workflow.

After I shot, I plugged the camera into the computer (macpro) and when the card mounted I renamed it to my client's name. (CLIENT, for example).

Then I started up XDCAM transfer (separate from FCP) and added all the clips to the cue and started importing.

The one very cool thing that I didn't expect is that I was still able to play and check clips while the importing was happening. This way, I was able to make a quick rough edit and find the good VO takes.

Once the import was done, I started FCP, navigated to my XDCAM IMPORTS folder and in that folder was a folder named CLIENT (the name of the card)

I imported all the clips.

Now, I selected the card in the finder and made a copy of it using toast to a DL DVD. All the clips together were about 5 gigs.

Then I started editing the spot while the backup was running. It took about 25 minutes to backup and verify the DVD.

Then I boldly deleted all the clips off my hard drive and inserted the DVD. I Started XDCAM Transfer and pointed it to the DVD. Did a select all and IMPORT. All the media reconnected flawlessly.

One warning: Importing from the DVD archive took FOREVER - a 1 minute clip via USB from the cam was :38... off the DVD - 3:15

Nice to hear it went well Andrew!

Also...thanks for the valuable info on transfering and archiving.

copy/pasted for future reference. :)

thanks!

Here's my setup:

MacBook Pro running latest OS
FCP 6.0.2
XDCAM EX Clip Browser V1.0
XDCAM Transfer V2.1.0

Here's my problem:

When I insert my SxS card into MPB both the Clip Browser and Transfer programs see and open the clips on the card BUT if I copy the BPAV folder to any other location - HD, DVD, etc - on Clip Browser will see the files. XDCAM Transfer sees the BPAV folder as grayed out unless it is on the SxS card itself.

I'm puzzled.

Carroll Lam

You need to add the location of the new BPAV folder to XDCAM transfer window on the left.

So if you copied your BPAV folder to a drive called MEDIA, you need to click the add button in lower left and add that location as a place to look for BPAV folders.

What you're seeing is a cache of old cards and BPAV folders that were once in that location.

You need to add the location of the new BPAV folder to XDCAM transfer window on the left.


Yes, I've done that but when I select the location of the BPAV folder the folder shows up as grayed out in the Add Location window.

Puzzling.

Carroll Lam

are you pointing to the BPAV folder or the parent directory? I think you need to add the parent directory to the list - not point to the folder directly.

are you pointing to the BPAV folder or the parent directory? I think you need to add the parent directory to the list - not point to the folder directly.

that's correct.
You need to go one level higher in your folder structure in order to see the files.