Hit me with it: Should I go TRV950 or MX5000?

I've been unable to find a direct side-by-side comparision between the two cameras, so I look to the Group for some direct (read: unbiased, if possible) feedback for my purchase decision. When choosing, I've got a couple of considerations:

1. Japanese Menus - At first, I thought Japanese menus would be no problem, but - yikes - they're scary! I've seen the English translations, but changing settings on-the-fly during a fluid shoot situation seems fraught with disaster ...

2. Sony Accessories - I already own a Sony TRV99 Hi8 camcorder (5 years old), so some of the batteries, mics and lenses would likely work on the TRV950, but not on the MX5000.

I've scoured the groups and www.supervideo.com.

Thx! RL

See my VX2000 system at this thread:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4761
if you are interested in the VX2000 instead of one of the others.
Steven Forrest

Yes, the VX2000 is a fantastic cam for the money, today. Regarding your question, I'm not you, but I would go for the MX5000 over the TRV950, and just get used to the Japanese menus. This will take some time, however.

I've used the TRV900 pro version, own a MX300, played with the TRV950, and have read my eyes red figuring which I think is better and which one I like better. In other news from Japan, the MX5000 is outselling the TRV950 by 10 to 1. And..., I did like the TRV900/PD100A a whole lot better than the newer TRV950. (I haven't seen a PDX10 yet, and don't care too.) This is my opinion.

For a better opinion, contact:

sales@cameraaction.au

and ask them which is better, the TRV950 or the MX500. They sell both.

well , so much for unabashed indifference .
The 950 uses M series batteries and is threaded to fit 37mm filters and lenses if that helps a bit . I own a 950 and it is a fairly good camcorder from my work with it.
There is a japanese page that alledgedly compairs about 5 camera's but it is pretty dubious IMO. Perhaps someone will post the link as I errased it awhile back dut to my oppinion of it's veracity.
KennJ

Kenn, I think the TRV950 is good, solid cam. It just never did anything for me whereas the PD100A did. The main problem I have with the TRV950 is that I couldn't get a grip with it. It was slipping out of my hand, while pulling forward and to the left. After this, I stopped trying to take it for a test drive. The specs are good though, and I have read mixed reviews about the video image. With the MX300, it is lighter and easier to hold, thus a truer, "hand-held." This is my opinion only. I think the TRV950 is a good, smaller tripod cam. Even with the larger GL2, this Canon is a joy to hold while operating (for me).

Welcome to the forums, John Beale. As an enthusiast of the Sony TRV900, what is your take on the new TRV950?

Sincerely,
From one of your regular visitors! (great website)

PS: I read the informative reviews on your website:

http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/trv950/trv950.html

Stupid me. Your take is all here on your TRV950 page!

http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/trv950/trv950.html

Now my next question..., did you sell your TRV900 and buy the TRV950? (I'm debating a similar matter, should I sell my MX300 to buy a MX500?)

When will the madness end. I save up for something, buy it, then shortly thereafter out comes a newer, better model. It ain't fair, I tell you.

Hey there!

I am new one in owning 940E/950. And, to make it worse, I didn't get my user manual packed in retail box.
However, I've been reading about SHUTER SPEED in some posts here, but there are some basics about it that I don't understand...

I thought SHUTTER SPEED is function to be used only for shooting STILLS... Obviously, I was wrong...

Can someone explain it to me? But slowly, from begining!

What is it?
What does it do to taped material?
And how exactly can it help you make "Slowmotion", mentiond few posts below???

Thnx!
Vanja

I can't exactly explain to you how it works (someone else will
fill in on that I hope). I did a search on it, since it has been
explained before, but I couldn't find anything in a short time.

The lower the shutter speed the more things begin to strobe
and if your camera moves or something moves the more everything
starts to get blurry. The higher the shutter speed the less
strobing and blurring and everything will look crystal clear.

So a 1/25th shutter will have more strobing/blurring than a
1/50th or 1/100th shutter (these are PAL examples).

Most people use 1/25th or 1/50th shutter for PAL film "mode"...

For slow motion you want an higher shutter speed so that
the images become much clearer (much better if you are going
to slow the footage down in your editing application!). So I'd
use 1/100 or more. Ofcourse this might mean you need to add
more light or change Iris or f-stop to compensate for the darkening
of your picture.

As always: playing around with one setting at a time and looking
at the resulting footage is a good way to learn what everything
does visually!

OK, I tried recording in all shuter speed modes and I got pretty fine picture of what happens when I change them...

But, the higer number, the picture gets much darker, and in shutter mode, I can't adjust Exposure...
Does it mean I have to light the scene with stand alone lights???
Or is there a trick?

And more important Q;

When I turned DATA CODE on (pressed it twice), I get the info of !1: AUTO/MANUAL MODE; 2.SHUTTER SPEED; 3.WHITE BALANCE MODE; 4. F. <some number> MODE; 5. GAIN MODE (18-0DB)

I don't get numbers 4 and 5...

What does this F <number< mean - what do I adjust with it?
And what do those DB 18-0 mean - I thought it has to do with audio gain, but I noticed it changes sometimes when I change exposure... But, other times when I change exposure it stays still - I always work in MANUAL mode...

Vanja,

I'm not familiair with your camera since I myself have a Canon
XL1s. So I cannot tell you where something is located or how
to operate a certain feature. I hope others with your camera will
chime in and give you those answers!

I don't know why you cannot change your exposure. If my XL1s
is in full manual I can adjust Shutter speed and Exposure (iris,
f-stop) exactly as I want.

The iris, exposure or f-stop changes how open or close the lens
is and therefor how much light is being let through. f2.0 is very
open f15 is very closed (on my camera). This changes the light
being let through (exposure).

So your F number is the exposure. The last one GAIN mode is
what your camera does to the signal after it has been captured
by the CCD's. This allows you to boost the signal (introducing
noise) or lower it. The best is to set this at the lowest possible
setting to not introduce noise (ar as least as possible). My camera
is either at 0 db or -3 db (yes, negative). It never goes above 0
(unless I'm shooting and night and want to see something).
If possible I add light if my shutter/exposure doesn't allow for
a good enough picture.

Audio gain is something different. Your camere might also have
an AUTO GAIN mode. In which the camera decicdes for itself which
gain level it should use. I never use it since I don't want grain
or that it changes the setting whilst recording my scenes! That's
why everything is on manual (my whitebalance usually is on auto
though, on sometimes my focuse too)

I hope this explains it a bit more!

Thanx again!
I've visited urbanfox.tv site and all of those matters are really explainde well there...
And now, for the first time, I AM LITTLE DISAPOINTED in my DRV950...

WHY??
First of all... You can't manualy adjust IRIS...which is conected to F-points at 950...
It can be just in automatic, backlite, or spotlight modes

EXPOSURE changes only GAIN values (dB)... when you set it to MANUAL, darker you go, biger is value...(or vice versa, I forgot now - doesn't matter).

And SHUTER SPEED can be manualy adjusted only when SHUTER is on AUTOMATIC....

But THE WORST is that all those settings - when in CAMERA STNDBY mode - in actually SETTING THOSE VALUES - you don't see numbers....
Just some scales....

Only when you're done recording, you can see exact numbers of db, F-spots, Shuter, WB-Mode....

Why is it so??? Ican't belive it....
Can someone give me a good reason???
Or even better, tell me I'm wrong! I'd love it!
:(

Vanja,

As stated earlier I do not know your camera, so I cannot
help you with these device specific questions. I have send a
notice to the other forum moderators to take a look at the thread
and I hope that will get you some more help.

Sorry! Hope you find what you are looking for.

You really have to study the manual and play with the cam to get familar with it. A word of advice: get to know the cam before actually buying it. This way you will know what to expect. I have read about this cam's limitations. This shouldn't stop you from recording great video with it, however.

Ok, I have my new TRV950. Early play confirms that I don't want to use the built in mics unless I have no other option, so I'm in the market for mics.

For what I shoot, I think that a decent shotgun and two wireless lavs (I think that term refers to lapel mics connected to a belt-mounted wireless transmitter, but please correct me if I'm wrong) should be enough, so I thought I'd field some opinions here. :-)

I intend to pick up a Beachtek XLR adapter (the DXA-4S), so I can use "real" mics. B&H has it for $170. Safe to assume I connect the shotgun to the adapter with the shortest XLR calbe I can find, such as this 1.5' one? http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bh5.sph/FrameWork.class?FNC=ProductActivator__Aproductlist_html___248818___AUAT83141.5___REG___CatID=4174___ SID=F303B6FB680

So far, for a shotgun, I'm leaning towards the Azden SGM-1X. Even though the SGM-X doesn't require the Beachtek adapter (and might therefore be more transportable and handier for quick shots or even vacation use), I think I want better than bottom end stuff like that. Also, it doesn't have a shock mount and will be a lot more sensitive to any handling noise. Similar concerns (no shock mount, no XLR) have led me to eliminate the Sennheiser MKE-300, although I've heard the audio quality is excellent.

The size of the SGM-1X also fits well in my case (so I don't want anything too much longer), and it comes with the shock mount. And it's fairly reasonable, too ($150 at B&H).

I've heard the Azden shotgun is not a truly stellar mic, but it should get the job done, yes? Is there anything better in that price range? I'm willing to spend more, within reason (don't go bother telling me how great Sennheiser's MKH 70's are, for instance!).

As for lavs, I guess the Azden WR22-LL Pro stuff looks somewhat interesting (I'm sure I'll want at least two lavs running, so the entry level WDR-Pro is out), but I'm not married to the idea. The cost is in my range, at approx $350 for the receiver plus 2 lapel mics.

For the record, I do indeed see that I can't have all three mics (2 lavs + shotgun) plugged into the Beachtek unit at the same time. I doubt that will be an issue, as 2 mics should be enough for my needs in most situations. If I ever need more than that, I'll just pick up a portable mixer.

Any tips or suggestions to get me started?

I have an Azden SGM-2X that I use with a Studio1 Productions XLR BP Pro. I recommend the XLR BP Pro over the Beachtek. Here's why... Glance through this thread to mid-way on the second page, and you'll see where I compared the two.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5446

Also, on the shotgun mic subject, here's a good low budget comparison...

http://www.lafcpug.org/review_shotgun_mic.html

Wow, that's a fantastic (and informative!) thread. Thanks!

Of course, now I have angst over getting the very BeachTek unit that I've heard such great things about until now. *g*

The Studio 1 unit seems to be a great deal (and about the same price as the BeachTek), and superior quality, but I have major qualms about buying an XLR adapter that's not camera mounted, due to how I tend to shoot. Much of the time, having wires dripping off my belt just isn't an option. :-(

Is the BeachTek unit really that bad, or is it just that the Studio 1 unit is just a bit cleaner for those looking for perfection (and can deal with the convenience/inconvenience of belt mounting, depending on your personal stance on the option)?

Glad to know the Azden mic works well for you. I'd be getting the shorter one, but they're still fairly similar, I think, and if it works well for you, it's little brother *should* work well for me, I think. :-)

Any other feedback on mics, esp. wireless, people?

The Beachtek is by no means "bad." I just found the Studio1 to be, as you said, cleaner, with more sound going through. The Azden or Audio Technica or other low-budget mics don't pick up nearly as much as the Sennheisers, so I figure the more you can avoid losing the better.

The main two selling points for me on the Studio1 other than the belt clip, was the fact that the ground is adjustable so you can use it on more than just one type of camera. Plus, you can use it with something like a MiniDisc just as easily. Hell, I even use it to hook XLR stuff up to my computer now and then when recording stuff into my Cakewalk Sonar software.

Hrm. Good tips, and that makes sense.

Based on the information before me so far, however, I think the BeachTek/Azden SGM-1X combo looks like my best bet for now. I really need the XLR adapter to be on-camera. And my budget is smaller than I hoped, since I just splurged on the camera itself.

As a hobbiest who wants to go further... at some point... I think I should cut my teeth at this lower level before I sink major bucks (make that, MORE major bucks) into high end gear that I'm not certain how I'll use... or justify to the girlfriend. ;-)

Since the amounts of money involved here are admittedly not huge, I can always upgrade down the line if I develop a real need for the higher end stuff. :-)

Anyone out there have anything to contribute on the wireless front, though? :-/

Well I am not familar with the Azden wireless. My fvorite is still the Sennheiser Evolution 100 series. Retails for $800 each, but can be had on the street for $450. Excellent UHF mic.

Vanja,

what you say about the effect of the exposure control is not true - at least not on my PDX10 (which, I believe, has the same menus in most cases).

In automatic mode, the camera will try to set exposure by adjusting the iris. If fully open (F1.6 on the PDX10) is not bright enough, it also applies a positive gain.

Then, when you adjust the exposure downwards, it first reduces the gain towards 0dB. Once at 0, it starts to close down the iris.

So the exposure control does directly control the F stop. But in the case that the scene you are shooting is dimly lit, it will add positive gain if the iris cannot open any further.

Regards,

Julian

Vanja,

What Julian explained is absolutely right. The exposure control does control the iris/gain as explained.

Anyway, I like the quality of 950 and appreciate its small footprint. VX2000/PD150 is good, but you just can't use it in every occassion.

Yesterday, I was warned 2 times while I were shooting during my tour in this country (I will not tell you where, but they're kind of sensitive here).

Before I buy my 950, I did consider VX2000 for its video quality. But, thinking that I'll be on the move more frequently this year, I decided 950. Initially, I was a bit dissapointed like you, but over the months, I've learned to appreciate this camera. Now, i really feel that I've made the correct choice.

It's such a good camera with great quality and feature. You know, I use its Bluetooth + my Ericsson phone to send mail+stills frequently ! I really appreciate that tiny built-in mail+web browser.

Julian and Yik!

Yes, You were both very "raight":)

I am back on the track in enyojing and loving my camera...
I worked around some problems (most of them, acctualy - concidering manual functions), and some others - well;

I just had to make my mind clear about that I didn't buy HIGH END PROFESSIONAL DIGI BETTA CAM..., right????

Anyway....I like that I can really learn fast...

Pitty it is so cold, though...

Heh, talkin about that...It says in Manual that operating conditions are between 0 and 50 degrees Celsius (Don't know hom much Farenthait it is:( (40-124 I guess)....
And it was much colder these few days (up to 15 degrees colder), but I took my camera for a ride....

And it worked allright, except, the FOCUS WHEEL got so hard to turn (I don't know if it is the rubber you turn it around that shrinks from a low tempereature, or some hydraulicks - althouhg I don't think that it works on such a sophisticated principals...

So, it got hard to turn, BUT MUCH; MUCH; MUCH MORE PRECISE!!!

Cause, in "normal" conditions, I sometimes keep on turning it forever and it changes just from 1.3 to 1.5m and then suddenly, just a small move and it jumpes from 1.5m to infinity...

Here, in "low tempereture conditions" it is much harder to turn but very equal disposition between the values!!!

And the friend of mine, who's proffesional camera-man says that the "real" camera's focus- and zoom-wheels are harder to turn than on these toys (he calls our cameras so, just to make me little nervous, but loves them though:)

Well. it was just my observation!!!!
Again... I can't expect my TRV to be sooo perfect, can I??

But, I still wonder, did any of you guys notice this Focus-wheel "un-evenness"?

PS

Rob, thanx for all of Your answers

Your more than welcome Vanja, my pleasure. Sorry I couldn't
be off more help with your camera specifics. Glad other people
joined in on that. Also good that you've got more hang of the
camera now, that's great!

Good luck with everything.

I just want to mention that I like using slow shutter speeds. Say I'm doing a wedding reception, or a church thing, and the lighting is poor. That's when I like to use a shutter setting lower than 1/60th. Also, low shutter settings give you another creative tool. I've shot parts of dance scenes with 1/15 and even 1/7.5 shutter settings, coupled with some neat pans/tilts, angles and fast zooms (not too fast though). Just make sure you have a good tripod---and do a little experimenting with slower speeds. My favourite creative slow speed? 1/30th and 1/15th. Unfortunately, my personal cams have the 1/30th speed missing, and my Pana only goes down to 1/50th (PAL version; 1/60 for the NTSC version).

The TRV950 (as well as the GL2) have all the slower shutter settings!

My wife and I had a free pass to the movie, "Darkness Falls." It's a low budget horror flick, but I thought I should bring it up here since most of the movie was shot with slow shutter pans, tilts and zooms. With the over use of these, it greatly added an effect of creepiness and terror. Mind you, I laughed all throughout the movie, while my wife was actually frightened.

Interesting observation Frank. I recently watched "Signs"(wife bought the DVD) and the first thing I noticed was the use of slow shutter speeds to acomplish a "feel"that was sort of earie and or spooky.
I also like to use the slower speeds for a smoothing effect, mostly 1/30th and 1/15th seem to work well for acomplishing this.
KennJ

Re: "Yesterday, I was warned 2 times while I were shooting during my tour in this country (I will not tell you where, but they're kind of sensitive here)."

The original Canon Optura (called something else in PALsville), looks just like a SLR camera. That may be the video cam for shooting in sensitive environments. This cam has a 1/3" progressive scan CCD, with all the low shutter speeds!

Well, this all sounds good...
And looks good, sa well, till there's no motion in shut...

But, when the moving starts, this 1/30 shutter speed provides an ugly effect....
Like delay motion....

Is there a way to avoid this, and still stay at lower speed???

Vanja

"But, when the moving starts, this 1/30 shutter speed provides an ugly effect."

If you use a tripod, you'll be surprised how nice the video will look, with a shutter speed at 1/30th.

what works for some don't work for all I guess.Personally I like the look and use it often but it's not for everyone.
Some folks just don't seem to really get the limitations of DV but rather feel that a couple of grand will get them the same quality as a 40 thousand $ cam and of course this leads to disapointment every time it happens.

Vanja Marin - check out about the film look(s) and about DV shot with lower shutter settings here:

http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/location/5272/

Check out some of the links I have posted here:

http://www.dvfreak.com/links.htm

I don't have my VCR at the moment (it is on service), but I am just reading article on "pass-through" on DV camcorders, and how it is very unussual that some pretty expencive models of 3CCD cameras don't support it....

So, does TRV 950???

When mentioning "pass-through", I don't think ov possibilitie to use cam as bridge for PAL monitor but for posibilitie to send material from analog VCR to comp (digitalize it), without having to record it on DV tape first....- so to get signal through camera (AVin and DVout - FireWIre - to comp)

So, can it convert it directly and send it straight to HDD????

PS
Excuse my English; I hope you've understood what I ment!:)

I heard it does, but I could be wrong. Perhaps get a Sony Store to check their spec catalog.

Look at 204 in the manuel under Signal Convert. The 950 can act as a pass through for an anolog signal with of course the caveat of having the proper software on your computer .
There are several places on-line to download a copy of the manuel if you do not have one by the way.

I am a beginner so I am not ready to shell out a lot of money for a "good" tripod, i.e. Manfrotto.
I saw on e-bay a certain "PTR-990" and am wondering if it's "okay".
The link is at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2912882322&category=30094 and hope if anyone with any experience with this particular model tell me if it's any good and if the price is not too hight.

Don't know about the tripod. But really it depends on what you are doing with it, but really any tripod with a fluid head and a sturdy build will do great. The key is that fluid head otherwise your pans will look like crap :)

The tripod I have: Velbon Videomate 607

Here it is at amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00004TYBM/qid=1046056591/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_8/104-0087999-3625543?v=glance&s=photo

I've been very happy with it.

This pass-through seems to be an inherent quality in most every dv cam these days. Even my 1 CCD camera (Sony TRV330) does it.

For a mere $189, you can have the Libec TH-M20
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bh4.sph/FrameWork.class?FNC=ProductActivator__Aproductlist_html___131444___LITHM20___REG___CatID=0___SID=F3C 75216110
which is a ball-leveling, two stage tripod with a mid-level spreader.

This will support up to 11 pounds, should work fine with the TR-950.

- don

Frank - the MX500 is a real advance on the MX300, and I'd say it was well worth the upgrade. From the tape loading to the little flash, from the looks to the side-screen, the 500 is hugely better than the 300.

But Sony have moved the TRV950 into a lower class than the 900. It's lost the 900's six bladed aperture and it's switchable ND filter, and the 950 really is now well removed from the VX2k. The 900 was uncomfortably close to the VX2k and Sony were really loosing sales to this little upstart with its huge side-screen.

But I'd still be interested to hear what the venerable Beale has to say about this.

tom.

I should e-mail him and ask him for his take---to post on this thread. I heard he's been very busy these days.

But the 950 produces far better results than the 900 and Im not just talking about the usual low light debate. As far as it outselling the VX, I dont know any 900 owners but plenty of VX and 950 owners. I had the choice of a 950 or VX and I went for the 950 the extra £500 for the VX was just not worth it as under reasonable lighting I found there was very little difference in picture quality and at the end of the day thats what matters to me. People seem to have a real downer on this cam why I do not know. I know its the wrong forum to mention this and I dont want to upset anyone but I would rather a MX300 than 500 anyday, I waited six months to view this over hyped cam which I hoped to replace my 300 with and it was the biggest dissapointment Ive ever come across but I guess its each to there own Tom it would'nt do if we all liked the same thing.

Phil, are you saying you like the MX300 much more than the MX500? Do you like the TRV950 more than the MX300? What are your reasons? I'm simply asking because I'm curious. Thanks!

I am saying I like the 300 ver the 500 and Im not the only one, here in PAL Land (UK) the 500 has'nt had the over the top praise showered on it that it has in NTSC Land. I personaly feel it has allot to do with its low light performance. Living in a rather murky Country weather wise, I found the 500's images even on a overcast day were to noisy due to the 1/6" CCDs and I just simply dont like the picture it produces a kind of forced sharpness. Add to that its too small for my hands, I dont like the zoom switch, the viewfinders terrible (I prefer using the viefinder to LCD) and it looks like a childs toy. Panasonic should have put more effort into improving the 300 instead of bringing out a cam that doesnt know if its a stills cam or video cam. Overall as you can tell I much prefered the 300, picture quality and handling, and just think its a far superior machine thats sadly now no more. Overall I prefer the 950 to both of them put together, chunky build, superb handling, a real zoom rocker switch, sharp picture quality allmost free of noise even in lower lighting and the best stabilizer Ive ever come across. I was once I die hard Panasonic fan but personally feel they are loosing the plot fast, whats with all these poor performing 1/6" CCDS there stuffing into the latest efforts?

Phil:

What do you mean by real zoom rocker switch? On which cam?

Also, how's the 950 on overcast days?

Any/All:

What do you think about 900 vs. 950? I actually have a buddy that'll sell me his 900 for $1200 including battery and its in great working condition, but I'm leaning towards the 950 (actually the x10). I'm just waiting for the dv mag review on the x10. Should I consider the 900?

Derek. Although the TRV950's CCDs are slightly larger than the MX5's CCDs, the lux still sucks. But what can you do when cam makers shove in these small CCDs? (Don't answer that.)

Derek, the 900 is still a camera worthy of your cosideration, believe me. And if you've found a second-hand one where you know the history, so much the better. $1200 sounds a little high maybe, though it could come with a wide-angle, spare batteries, and extended warranty for that money? Who knows. Remember to check out the in-built microphones, and remember that any repair work will quickly loose the money you've saved, so make an offer based on that.

If you're looking at the PDX10 then don't let me stop you. It really is double the money you're talking about for the 900, and the native 16:9 chips alone make it the camera to have. But if it's the 900 vs the 950 and you have a $500 difference, then that money will buy you a great widie, loads of tape and a decent tripod, so the 900 it is then.

It's also better in my view for having a switchable ND, bigger chips, six bladed aperture and better low light performance, though somewhat noisier as they're not HAD chips. The motor drive capabilities in progressive scan are wonderful, and compact flash is still cheaper than Memory stick. Still a formidable camcorder.

tom.

The switch on the 950 is a Zoom rocker, the kind of zoom found on most cams until recently when to save space makers are putting silly little buttons and switches on instead. On overcast days the 950s great, bright sharp images with no grain.

Hello! Is there any way to set the time code on the TRV950 so that it counts from an hour other than 00? This would be extremely useful on multi-tape projects. Thank you.

I don't believe this feature exists below the PD150.

David Hurdon