Forgive me the naivity of my questions, but here they go:

1. The EX is advertised as 'native 24p' capable; does this mean it writes full frames rather than segmented frames (fields), like the V1?

2. What exactly does the SHUTTER on/off switch do? What does it mean to switch shutter off?

2. What exactly does the SHUTTER on/off switch do?On other cameras where I've seen that before, it refers to "Auto Shutter Control On or Off." In other words, most likely it's a switch for auto shutter vs. manual shutter.

Yeah, this sounds like the only possible explanation to me. But why drop "Auto"? We're all used to switching between auto and manual settings of many things, including the shutter - so seeing the SHUTTER ON/OFF switch underneath the EX's lens barrel made me wonder...

the Sonys are weird. To control the shutter speed manually you need to switch the shutter switch on the front of the camera to ON that is if it's anything like the DRS250.
Confusing but that's how it works. Otherwise the shutter is in the auto mode.

Don

1. The EX is advertised as 'native 24p' capable; does this mean it writes full frames rather than segmented frames (fields), like the V1?

I'm not sure 100% but I think they are true 24p frames. At least this is how I understand the higher end XDCAMHD cameras to handle 24p. With those cameras it is my understanding that the progressive modes really do encode the mpeg2 video as progressive. This explains why keying works so well with progressive footage from the XDCAMHD cameras. As for the EX using this same method I do not know. I would like to think they would since this camera is supposed to compliment the higher end cameras. I'm sure there would be a lot of grunts and complaints if SONY did it in a different way for the EX.

Forgive me the naivety of my questions, but here they go:

1. The EX is advertised as 'native 24p' capable; does this mean it writes full frames rather than segmented frames (fields), like the V1?


This would imply (or guarantee) that each frame is captured, encoded and stored as a full field, as opposed to capturing, deinterlacing and gluing together 2 interlaced fields to make a pseudo-progressive frame.

The same should be true for other progressive frame rates, including 720p60.

Tom

Tom, it sure would, but my question is if it actually does:)

XDCAM HD captures as 24PsF which is progressive segmented frame. The sensors are progressive and capture a progressive image, but it gets segmented into two fields. However, those two fields don't have any motion delay between them because they are captured at the same point in time.

As to the shutter switch... it's fairly common for high end video cameras to have this switch. Basically, in the off position, the shutter speed is identical to your frame rate (24p=1/24, 30p=1/30, etc.). When you turn on the shutter switch, you are informing the camera that you wish to alter the point at which the charge is read from the CCD pixels as opposed to the time period equal to 1 frame... effectively creating an electronic shutter. For the slow shutter mode, the charge is allowed to accumulate longer than the period of a single frame before being dumped and read out into the registers.

I suspect, but can't confirm, that the XDCAM EX will employ the same method of 24 and 30 fps to maintain compatibility with the existing models as far as NLE's are concerned.

-gb-

Reading between the lines I expect the EX will have the same shutter features as the F350/F330, so as well as the usual shutter speeds that are fractions of the actual shooting frame rate there will probably also be a range of slow shutter speed.

The advantage of PsF frames is that they can be handled by interlaced systems as well as progressive systems. By using PsF you can drop progressive material into interlaced projects with ease. HDCAM also uses PsF.

Thanks Greg. It surprises me a little that the XDCAM HD also uses 24(5)PsF, like the V1 I'm using now. Many viewing devices (even high-end HDTVs) have problems with properly interpreting the progressive segmented frames when fed withing a standard 1080/50(60)i stream, in that they try to deinterlace it which causes heavy line twittering. I hoped this wouldn't pose a problem with the EX...

Another disappointment arises from the fact that using 24PsF means the whole pull-down removal stuff will still be there to complicate things... Since (due to the BD-HD DVD specs promoting 24p over 25p even in Europe) I'd probably be using 24p more often than 25p, I was hoping it's coming without those probs that we the PAL users didn't have so far...

Regarding the shutter thing, yes I remember somebody saying something like "I only use (switch on) the shutter when..." or something like this, and it was a high-end professional cameramen talking. After your explanation, the SHUTTER ON/OFF switch does make a perfect sense.

As to the shutter switch... it's fairly common for high end video cameras to have this switch. Basically, in the off position, the shutter speed is identical to your frame rate (24p=1/24, 30p=1/30, etc.).

When I give it a second thought, it sort of answers another questions the V1 and Canon A1 users often ask: why - when you switch from interlaced to progressive, and the shutter is auto - does the camera always default to the shutter speed identical to the frame rate? E.g. with my PAL model, the default shutter speed is 1/25th and the progressive frame rate is 25fps... Now it seems logical, and answers the doubts of those who claimed that in progressive mode (considered also to be the most 'filmic' setting), the default shutter speed should be that of a film camera, i.e. 1/48th for 24p etc...To use the analogy with high-end cams, in progressive mode the shutter is being switched off by default on those semi-pro machines.

I never used film cameras, so I've always been happy with my V1 switching to 1/25th when in progressive (25PsF) mode. Apart from very bright conditions, when even ND2 filter is not enough and I would have to close the iris beyond 5.6 (which I never do because of diffraction softening) - I use 1/25th a lot. Which means, that should I be lucky enought to buy the XDCAM EX one day, I'd not be using the shutter at all (to translate it into the high-end cams jargon) :-)

Thanks Greg. It surprises me a little that the XDCAM HD also uses 24(5)PsF, like the V1 I'm using now. Many viewing devices (even high-end HDTVs) have problems with properly interpreting the progressive segmented frames when fed withing a standard 1080/50(60)i stream, in that they try to deinterlace it which causes heavy line twittering. I hoped this wouldn't pose a problem with the EX...

Another disappointment arises from the fact that using 24PsF means the whole pull-down removal stuff will still be there to complicate things... Since (due to the BD-HD DVD specs promoting 24p over 25p even in Europe) I'd probably be using 24p more often than 25p, I was hoping it's coming without those probs that we the PAL users didn't have so far...



Hi Piotr,

I'm pretty sure that the XDCAM EX does not use the same progressive format that the V1 uses. The V1 places it's 24p in a 60i stream thus requiring the pull-down that we all are facing. The XDCAM EX encodes in two fields creating the progressive image (your NLE will detect this as true 24p meaning no pulldown; I'm going off what I've studied, so forgive me if any info is incorrect). Trust me Piotr, if the XDCAM format had the same 24p issues the V1 has we would have heard about it all over this forum (and the XDCAM would have definitely been referenced in the V1 forum... so there is hope)

Todd

Hi Piotr,

I'm pretty sure that the XDCAM EX does not use the same progressive format that the V1 uses. The V1 places it's 24p in a 60i stream thus requiring the pull-down that we all are facing. The XDCAM EX encodes in two fields creating the progressive image (your NLE will detect this as true 24p meaning no pulldown; I'm going off what I've studied, so forgive me if any info is incorrect). Trust me Piotr, if the XDCAM format had the same 24p issues the V1 has we would have heard about it all over this forum (and the XDCAM would have definitely been referenced in the V1 forum... so there is hope)

Todd

So basically what you're suggesting Todd is that it's NOT going to be 24PsF, right? But hey, the EX is not going to differ from the current XDCAM HD in this department, so there are people around who actually know rather than speculate on this!

So basically what you're suggesting Todd is that 24PsF will be edited just like the 25PsF is now with the V1E?

Actually I believe that your NLE will recognize that the XDCAM EX footage is already 24 'true' progressive (where the V1 us recognized as interlaced; the NLE has no idea that the footage from the V1 is progressive).

I really don't think you have to worry about the way you'll have to edit the XDCAM footage (I'm in the same boat as you with the V1).

There is a gentleman named Greg Boston who posts quite frequently who owns a couple of XDCAM's so he could probably give you more information about the capabilities of the way the camera handles 24p.

Todd

Actually I believe that your NLE will recognize that the XDCAM EX footage is already 24 'true' progressive (where the V1 us recognized as interlaced; the NLE has no idea that the footage from the V1 is progressive).

I really don't think you have to worry about the way you'll have to edit the XDCAM footage (I'm in the same boat as you with the V1).

There is a gentleman named Greg Boston who posts quite frequently who owns a couple of XDCAM's so he could probably give you more information about the capabilities of the way the camera handles 24p.

Todd

Well, actually it was Greg himself who stated a couple of posts ago the XDCAM HD uses segmented frames, Todd:)

And BTW: I have no problems editing the 25PsF from my V1E using Vegas; it recognizes it correctly as progressive even though it's burried within the 1080i stream. My problems start when I play back my clips with anything other than a software MPEG2 player that has the option of switching deinterlacing off - there's been a long and detailed thread on this in the V1 forum, you can search for it and see why.

The sensors are progressive and capture a progressive image

On the current XDCAM HD models the CCD's are interlaced.

Well, actually it was Greg himself who stated a couple of posts ago the XDCAM HD uses segmented frames, Todd:)

And BTW: I have no problems editing the 25PsF from my V1E using Vegas; it recognizes it correctly as progressive even though it's burried within the 1080i stream. My problems start when I play back my clips with anything other than a software MPEG2 player that has the option of switching deinterlacing off - there's been a long and detailed thread on this in the V1 forum, you can search for it and see why.

You're fortunate that your using Vegas (I'm on FCP and as of now there isn't a way to remove the pulldown other than use Cinema Tools). Simon just stated that the current XDCAM's CCD's are interlaced... now I'm confused a bit too.

Piotr, forgive my 'guestimates' about the way the XDCAM EX produces it's 24p images. Hopefully the workflow will be as simple as placing the clips in a 23.98 sequence and the clips will be 'true' 24p (in NTCS land anyway).

Todd :)

On the current XDCAM HD models the CCD's are interlaced.

Now, this is interesting! Does it mean some in-camera deinterlacing is involved in getting the progressive footage?

It'd be ironic, I dare say: the V1 with progressive chips only being able to record segmented frames within the interlaced stream, and the XDCAM EX with interlaced chips producing native 24p!

Now, this is interesting! Does it mean some in-camera deinterlacing is involved in getting the progressive footage?

It'd be ironic, I dare say: the V1 with progressive chips only being able to record segmented frames within the interlaced stream, and the XDCAM EX with interlaced chips producing native 24p!

XDCam uses 3:2 pulldown to retrieve 24p from the camera and disks as, like the V1 and most 1080 cameras, it wraps the progressive 24p image in the 60i stream. The only difference is that the camera has interlace chips instead of progressive like the V1. No idea if the EX will be natively progressive or interlace. XDCam achieves a true 24p image without resolution loss from its interlace chips. I don't know how, but somehow Sony has a way to do it. There are XDCam decks that will enable capture of 24p without pulldown but not from the cameras themselves. Also, if you capture through HD-SDI, I believe you can digitize 24p without having to use 3:2 pulldown. There is an NLE advantage with XDCam over the V1, though. XDCam is mostly supported; The V1 is mostly not. I went to an XDCam seminar, and they were capturing 24p into FCP with no problems.

Thanks John for this explanation! Since you're saying this based on a Sony's seminar, and it is confirming what our guru Simon has just stated - I understand it's been established beyond any doubt the EX's chips are going to be interlaced.

As I said: very unexpected indeed. Perhaps Sony has licensed the Canon's 'F' mode encoding:-))

I have no clue as to how the EX will derive 25p or if it's sensors will be interlaced or progressive. However how it records 25p is as irrelevant to the EX as it is to the V1P. 25p and 25PsF can and do record exactly the same thing, as pointed out many NLEs cannot handle 25p anyway nor can the majority of display devices. So even if the EX was to record 25p and it had say HD component outputs it would almost certainly still output 25PsF to them for the benefit of the display device.
As far as we can tell though the EX will not have HD component outputs so it might be a quite academic argument on that front. It will have HD SDI though and again, as far as I know you cannot feed 25p down HD SDI, it has to be 25PsF or 50i.

Shows you what I knew ;).

I do wish the EX had HD component outs, but I guess when Sony makes it's official announcements we'll know.

Forgive me the naivity of my questions, but here they go:

1. The EX is advertised as 'native 24p' capable; does this mean it writes full frames rather than segmented frames (fields), like the V1?


OK, so now we know:

- in HQ (1920x1080p), it's frame based (native) 24p!
- in SP (1440x1080i), it's the ususal 24psf within 1080/60i stream and pulldown, just like the old good HDV.

Does it also apply to 25p (in HQ) vs 25psf (in SP)? I'd think so!

OK, so now we know:

- in HQ (1920x1080p), it's frame based (native) 24p!
- in SP (1440x1080i), it's the ususal 24psf within 1080/60i stream and pulldown, just like the old good HDV.

Does it also apply to 25p (in HQ) vs 25psf (in SP)? I'd think so!

In 25p it's really unimportant if it records 25PsF or 25p. The cadence is such that pulldown removal is a piece of cake. Keeping in mind that nothing supports 25p anyway it's kind of a pointless issue. It's very nice to edit 25p on a 25p timeline but I've seen a few TVC shot on 35mm and edited on a 50i T/L.

Keeping in mind that nothing supports 25p anyway it's kind of a pointless issue.

Sure thing Bob; if one has native 24p than 25p is a non-issue. Was just wondering if the same logic applies to both NTSC and PAL modes.

After the brochure, and now the first impression reviews from Alister, Simon and Nigel - I'm almost sold on this little marvel.

The only 2 things that I'm still in doubts about are:
- will it work with the chepaer, non-Pro Express Card
- will it *somehow* make use of the lanc controllers I have, or something else but not very much more expensive.

Alister, Simon or Nigel;

May I ask you whether at 25Mbps, the HDV output of EX1's i.LINK will be compatible with the HVR-DR60 drive? The reason I'm asking is because I'd like to make my upgrade path from the V1/DR60 combo to the PMW-EX1 as cheap as possible, and using the EX1 with the two 8GB cards supplied AND/OR with the DR60 would let me wait till the 16 or 32 GB Express Cards price drop. TIA!

The 1394 out of the EX1 appears to be HDV only, not even DV.

PS: You only get one 8GB SxS card with the camera, not two.

The 1394 out of the EX1 appears to be HDV only, not even DV.

PS: You only get one 8GB SxS card with the camera, not two.

And HDV is exactly what I need to write on my DR60.
From the European announcement, the Euro 6500 price is for the EX1 with 2 x 8 GB SxS card, Guy.

OK, the Sony product brochure for the EX has the "Supplied Accessories" as one card only. 2 cards is probably a bundle for the UK only.

I had to laugh, on Sony's web site they had a 0% leasing option with an EX1 in the add. The problem is the promo is only valid for purchases made up till the end of this month. I'd like to see anyone use that option with an EX1 ;-)

OK, the Sony product brochure for the EX has the "Supplied Accessories" as one card only. 2 cards is probably a bundle for the UK only.

I had to laugh, on Sony's web site they had a 0% leasing option with an EX1 in the add. The problem is the promo is only valid for purchases made up till the end of this month. I'd like to see anyone use that option with an EX1 ;-)

Not just UK, also Germany - so I think all EU, really:

http://www.film-tv-video.de/newsdetail+M5e5b57791bf.html?&tx_ttnews%5Bday%5D=07&tx_ttnews%5Bmonth%5D=09&tx_ttnews%5Byear%5D=2007

"Der erste Festspeicher-Camcorder von Sony heißt PMW-EX1 HD. Der Camcorder soll als erstes Gerät der neuen XDCAM-EX-Produktfamilie ab November verfügbar sein und inklusive zweier 8-GB-Karten 6.500 Euro kosten."

On the current XDCAM HD models the CCD's are interlaced.

Simon, just been reading your review....1920x1080 with 8bit 4:2:2 via SDI. Now that is great news. Seems Sony has been listening.
Thanks for the writeup.

Initial release of the EX1 will see it ship with 2x 8Gig cards at approx 6,500 euros. Should be on the shelves in November. The 2x card bundle is a launch promotion for a limited period only. Express your interest to Sony Finance before the end of September and you will get the 0% deal when the EX1 ships.

Alister,

Do you know you we would contact in the U.S. to inquire about financing options?

Thanks

Initial release of the EX1 will see it ship with 2x 8Gig cards at approx 6,500 euros. Should be on the shelves in November. The 2x card bundle is a launch promotion for a limited period only. Express your interest to Sony Finance before the end of September and you will get the 0% deal when the EX1 ships.

The www.creativevideo.co.uk price is GBP 3,995 + VAT

Wow......one WHOLE 8gig card??

I feel Wedding Videographers asking the Bride and Groom to hurry up with their vows with so much recording time on such a large Media Card.

Wow......one WHOLE 8gig card??

I feel Wedding Videographers asking the Bride and Groom to hurry up with their vows with so much recording time on such a large Media Card.Alistair said *two* 8Gb cards for a limited period.

Its perfectly normal and typical for all camcorder manufacturers to not give away muhc (if any) free blank media with their machines. If someone if serious about buying a US$7,500 machine then the inclusion or not of a 8Gb card i think is unliklely to alter their decision (or not) to purchase.

16Gb card will be 700 euro, 8Gb card 400 euro approximate list prices. Should be a 32Gb card next year

16Gb card will hold 50mins of HQ, 70mins of SP.

Card technology is proprietary so anyone can make SxS cards.

Yes it will do 25P in HQ.

Not sure whether the 0% deal is available in the US and I don't know who you should call.

Alistair said *two* 8Gb cards for a limited period.

Its perfectly normal and typical for all camcorder manufacturers to not give away muhc (if any) free blank media with their machines. If someone if serious about buying a US$7,500 machine then the inclusion or not of a 8Gb card i think is unliklely to alter their decision (or not) to purchase.

Makes no odds.....like you say....the fact is it is theee camera I want so I will end up buying it anyway.

Will be interesting in and around the date to see who else makes the cards though and at what price starting off.

Shane Ross (http://lfhd.blogspot.com/) posted about some of the stuff he saw at IBC including some info on the EX. Here is an interesting tidbit I hadn't heard before,
It records ALL of the formats that the larger XDCAM cameras record. 25Mbps, 35Mbps in the usual MPEG-2 4:2:0 format at 1440x1080 or 960x720. But it ALSO records the new 50Mbps FULL RASTER 1920x1080 format. NICE. And the image is very crisp.


-A

Shane Ross (http://lfhd.blogspot.com/) posted about some of the stuff he saw at IBC including some info on the EX. Here is an interesting tidbit I hadn't heard before,

Hmmm, the official brochure doesn't say anything about 50 mbs, however it will record the full raster 1920x1080 @35mbs. And I haven't seen 18mb VBR mentioned so it can't do all the bit rates of the bigger cameras.

-gb-

XDCam uses 3:2 pulldown to retrieve 24p from the camera and disks as, like the V1 and most 1080 cameras, it wraps the progressive 24p image in the 60i stream. The only difference is that the camera has interlace chips instead of progressive like the V1. No idea if the EX will be natively progressive or interlace. XDCam achieves a true 24p image without resolution loss from its interlace chips. I don't know how, but somehow Sony has a way to do it. There are XDCam decks that will enable capture of 24p without pulldown but not from the cameras themselves. Also, if you capture through HD-SDI, I believe you can digitize 24p without having to use 3:2 pulldown.

I'm fairly certain the camera records 24p to disc in PsF format. That's why 24P requires its own disc, formatted for 24p. You get more recording time on the disc which indicates it's not applying pulldown during the writing process (otherwise it would take up the same space as 30p/60i). It applies pulldown upon retrieval to come out the FW, composite, or HDSDI ports (24P via HDSDI is a feature of the forthcoming F355 camera). Via FAM transfer, I'm not 100% certain, but the editing timebase for the XDCAM HD 24P preset in FCP is 23.98 so if pulldown is applied during FAM transfer, the XDCAM Transfer tool or FCP must be detecting and removing it.

-gb-

Greg is correct about the bit rates. 35Mb 1920x1080 and 25Mb 1440x1080. I believe that when you are above 30fps it is 1280x720 at 35Mb so it should look very good. I hope to have an EX next week to shoot some more footage and I will be investigating the overcrank modes in much more depth.

Alister, if you are going to have an EX 1 in your hands could you possibly check for me (and for the rest of us) the issue of the wobble and rolling shutter please? Since weddings are my main line of business I'm particularly worried about the photographer's flash. Can you maybe post a screen shot where one can see the effect of the flash? This issue is the only worrying factor in my case to decide whether I will go for this camera or not. And unfortunately in my country the Sony agent would not be having a demo unit, and there are no rental services, so I really cannot test this out myself. Any feedback would be much appreciated.

So much has been said on the EX1, yet I'm still unclear about all its recording modes... On the brochure's last page (specs), it's said that in SP the camera is only capable of 1440x1080/60i (NTSC) or 1440x1080/50i (PAL).

Yet on page 5 (upper left corner), it's indicated that the EX1 is capable of 24p (with pull down) at 1440x1080, as opposed to native 24p in 1920x1080 or 1280x720.

So, which formats are really available through i.LINK (in HDV) - just the interlaced ones, or all written within interlaced stream (because if 24p with pull-down is available, I see no reason why 25PsF and 30PsF wouldn't)....

Anybody?

The rolling shutter issue is something that I'm wondering about as well.

I have reviewed some of my EX1 footage and there is a very small amount of shutter roll. I had to go through a lot of footage including tracking shots from train windows and fast pans of kite surfers, whip pans etc to find it. What I am saying is that while it is present, I had to actively search for it to find it. I could not find a shot where it is obvious or distracting in normal palyback. the worst I could find was about a 10 degree tilt to some telephone poles shot straight out of the window of a moving train. I hadn't noticed it before and I've watched that shot many times and only found it on a freeze frame when I was actually looking for it. So all in all for normal shooting I can't see it being an issue.