I'm going to be shooting a feature early next year that will take place pretty much 99% outdoors in the woods at night.

How would you recommend shooting something like this? We're thinkin about this issue now, so we can become proficient before it comes time to shoot...

Would you get a generator and use Incandescents?
Figure out a way to get the power company to hook power up to the site (this is just a theory, haven't actually researched the possibility of this yet)
LED's or Fluorescents on Batteries?

What would the best set up be for efficiency, quality, and cost saving?

Also, what technique would you use to light something like this? We were thinkin using strong lights and reflectors to light the subjects (actors) and use another light or two just to light the background enough to establish the location. Any pointers?

Thanks so much

Dale

Much depends on how wide you want your shots to be. If you want to film wide shots at night in a wood you can find yourself with a pretty big lighting rig very quickly. On one short I was involved in we had 12k & 6k HMIs creating a moonlight effect. While on a music video, which had a smaller area, 4k and 2.5k HMIs.

An elevated light source will help sell a moonlight effect in a wood.

Generators make life a lot easier, unfortunately, unless you've got the money for a silent film generator they can be pretty noisy. Batteries are OK for localised effect, but you don't really have enough life for a full night's filming.

You do have long power cable runs as well.

Finding a good location will save a lot of problems, because working in a wood at night can be difficult and people can easily have accidents working in the dark. If you can find a wood near a building with a power supply will help if you've a limited budget.

An alternative is to shoot day for night.

Yes, thanks for the info...

That helps a lot in guaging the intensity of lights we'll need...

We'll definitely try to get power out there somehow if possible then...

We're definitely considering DFN, and are actually more proficient in post than production, but are afraid of consistency and it overall looking "real" and believable.

If you know of some secret techniques for DFN, please, share! We're always experimenting... thanks so much!

Dale

Hey Dale,

Costco has a 15kw generator. I don't recall the price, but it seems to me it was under $1,000.. I don't know about the volume level. I know the Honda generators are pretty darn quiet, but more expensive too.

For what it's worth.. :)

Eric

Its worth a lot... Thanks eric. I'll definitely give it a look!

...I know the Honda generators are pretty darn quiet, but more expensive too...
Some of the Honda's are very quiet. Some aren't. Their quietest are the EU "super quiet" series; EU1000i, EU2000i, EU3000is and EU6500ISA.

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/gensup.asp

You'll still want some good 100' 12ga. stingers.

One option I came up with last night for this was if you could find a location behind a store or something. Then you'd get a lot of spill from the parking lot lights into the woods, and maybe with a little bit of fill to add some different colors or shapes with your own lights, you could get away without lighting up the forest on your own. :)

It might be possible to find a location that is adjacent to a structure of some sort that has power (utility building, bathroom, etc). Tieing in to the service there would give you a good amount of juice to work with. You'll need a trained electrician and a lot of cable (and obviously permission), but this would eliminate the sound issues with generators.

Small units cleverly placed that pick out the greenery in the background will give you some depth, while backlight or sidelight with a bit of frontal fill (at least stops under) for the actors will get the job done. Sounds like an ambitious project!

I think we've overlooked the obvious..

Does the camera have Nightvision? :)

The most efficient answer is a generator, a condor, and HMI's of a size to cover the area you are trying to light. I can tell you from experience that trying to make do without a slient generator in a quiet area such as woods at night can be a real nightmare. I have successfully used a collection of Honda 2000ei generators and 1.2K HMIs for night scenes, but they were staged in a pretty small area. Are there any other viable sources of light in your scenes? Car headlights? Fire?

There aren't any big secrets to doing DFN. Depending on what you mean by "woods" though, you may actually have pretty good luck with day for night if you are careful. The trees do a good job of breaking up the sunlight and helping sell it as moonlight if you keep it as back light.

Very good suggestions...

Ralph: DFN is definitely still an option - we have some extensive testing to do yet, but wanted to do all the research on the front end beforehand so we know what our options are... Keeping everything backlit at all times is the part that's scary though, seems like that could get really cumbersome really fast, but who knows - you don't really til you try it right?

And you're right about the Hondas. I was doing some research on that today, and Honda makes those super-quiet generators like the EU3000 that's supposed to have a 52-58dB operating noise level... crazy. And they're amazingly affordable for what i thought they'd be. We're starting to look at this option. We do have a budget... hard to say for sure what it'll be but 30k could be easily reached...

Call me crazy. But I was thinking really hard about the matter, and i remembered i had been building a projector a while back and was using a 400w metal halide bulb in it. The thing was incredibly bright. 20,000 lumens or so i think. So i thought, why not get a 1500w metal halide bulb with a ballast and mogul and all that, and mount it to some type of reflective housing for a very cost effective and high-output light fixture?

We still have to experiment this, but it sounds like it could work. They can make metal halide in color temps from 2700 - 20,000 - it seems like it could work. They're about 40 bucks for a lamp, and 150 for the ballast and mogul kit and all that.

So we're looking at one or two of those 3000w (2k MSRP) honda silent generators with two or three of those 1500w Metal Halide fixtures, and some smaller 500w and less fills... We're looking at 5 grand or close at least, for all this (that's about the cost of 1 Arri 4k HMI alone). Seems like a possibility
... and if we bust a bulb it's not 2k to replace...

That's if we can't find power close by. Seems like it could work - it's all theoretical though...

You're right Charles, it's a very ambitious project! - and we can't wait!

Let me know what you think...

Thanks

One thing to keep in mind this time of year is the flying insects. I'm in Raleigh and have been trying to do a few outdoor scenes recently, and it is next to impossible with all of the bugs attracted to the lights. It has been very hard if not impossible to keep those out of the shot.

Would a blacklight help out with that? And possibly UV filters on the lights?

Hah, good thoughts...

We'll be shooting in late winter probably (March hopefully), so hopefully it won't be too much of an issue...

Would the blacklight thing work though?

Well, they use them with bug zappers because bugs are attracted to UV light (they navigate by the light of the moon but are confused by the invention of the light bulb ;)

Blacklights/growlights are used in the silent bug catchers in restaurants and kitchens, because they give off more UV light than the ceiling lights do.

It seems to me it could work. Or at least help :)

Eric

Awesome idea... thanks!

Sure, I don't know that it'll be a 100% fix, but it should help somewhat. At least to lower the chances of bugs in the shot. The winter months should be fine but I imagine you'll want to do this another time if it's feasible. :)

Dale - FYI the honda generators are definitely great, BUT no small putt-putt genny can reliably handle its rated load constantly. For a 3000 watt honda genny, figure a 1.2K will run reliably, and you may be able to run 2 sometimes (rarely). The difference between that genny and that same model rented from a film-specific rental house can be pretty drastic - oftentimes they modify the windings to deliver max power on a single leg, or split and balanced power over 2 legs... They also mod the intake, fuel lines and control circuits to stay within tolerance to 60hz. Just know that the watts rating should be taken as... a sales spec more than an actual rating.

I'm pretty sure someone around here was running a 1.2K HMI off a Honda EU2000i generator (search on the generator name). You definitely don't want to approach the maximum rated load, but 60% should be fine. I've used the EU1000i an it is VERY quiet for a generator but I would recommend the 2000W model.

I use fluorescent lights, large deep-cycle marine batteries, and power inverters to get 120V. I have yet to do a large scene, but I did a two-person shot on the beach with this setup once.

Just some different thinking...

Knowing nothing about your script this might be totally off base but can you motivate the light by having your characters start a big campfire and feed/leave it burning?

Or what about taking a Coleman lantern or something similar along? Then the audience will EXPECT that as the light source.

When your audience expects a lightsource, particularly an "organic" one like a fire or lantern, it solves the problem of the darkness of the forrest, and you can pretty easily simulate it in the studio for close ups keeping your field shoot time down.

Just alternative thinking.

If you can use Bill's suggestion, you can get away with much less "moonlight" as you only need accents here and there. Put a daylight-balanced light on some background and a kicker/hairlight on the actors and you get enough blue accents. This would avoid the need for a huge daylight source up on a crane.

Also, propane lanterns make an interesting production when they are fired up. They also make a subtle hissing sound that could be used during quiet moments to add tension.

I'm going to be shooting a feature early next year that will take place pretty much 99% outdoors in the woods at night.

How would you recommend shooting something like this? We're thinkin about this issue now, so we can become proficient before it comes time to shoot...

Would you get a generator and use Incandescents?
Figure out a way to get the power company to hook power up to the site (this is just a theory, haven't actually researched the possibility of this yet)
LED's or Fluorescents on Batteries?

What would the best set up be for efficiency, quality, and cost saving?

Also, what technique would you use to light something like this? We were thinkin using strong lights and reflectors to light the subjects (actors) and use another light or two just to light the background enough to establish the location. Any pointers?

Thanks so much

Dale

I would look at a generator with LEDs

Marcus is right about those lanterns, although the hissing sound is pretty noticable on the audio track. The light they put out is interesting though. It's got very subtle variations in it (much more subtle than you could get from a flicker box) that give a little organic property to the light. Almost like it's breathing. I don't know what the color temp or CRI of gas fired lanterns might be, but it's certainly not in any sort of normal range. Despite that, we used them exclusively to light a creepy scene in an abandoned bunker, and they were just the ticket.