4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Rob Lohman · August 16th, 2004, 01:00 AM

Wayne: sure, sponsorship would be great. But I'm not sure how
that would work or how to approach etc. Not too sure on who
would actually want to do that (can't really see a reason why).

Jason: he is using the Sony CineAlta, same one as George is
using for Star Wars.

Wayne Morellini · August 16th, 2004, 01:01 AM

Quote:

I am going to look for cheap but nice cameras, to lower the overall system cost to under $2000 (without expensive software or lense).

I forgot to mention, if anybody has cameras they can post I will be discussing it on the Home Made HD Cinema Cameras - Technical Discussion thread.

Wayne Morellini · August 16th, 2004, 02:55 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : Wayne: sure, sponsorship would be great. But I'm not sure how
that would work or how to approach etc. Not too sure on who
would actually want to do that (can't really see a reason why). -->>>

I see your reasonning. They do this stuff quiet a bit for the public recognition of being the leading company making things happen (getting the job done), or for profit, or business political reasons (firing a shoot over the shoulder of the competition), or just benevoulance (like their giving moiney to charity). They like to be seen as the ones solving problems. Companies with lots of money are the most likely companies to fund thius sort of thing. The free publicity they get out of it canbe many times the outlay, and keeps them in the industry, or public's, mind as a leading coimpany to do business with. But you don't just storm the beaches with people onmass asking all at once, you have one, or two, select people that work togther to liase with the companies.

We have a bit of a problem though, because the companies in the market might not like to do it for business reasons. So we have to find other companies. As it is a computer, machine vision/surveilence related they are the most likely companies, with computer companies also have the most cash to spend on these sorts of things.

Just think of all the things IBM. Xerox, Apple, MS etc etc etc etc get upto that have no real bearing on their profits, but on their reputation. You can buy industry and customer loyalty through reputation and status.

But at the moment we are so divided between different camps (CL, GBE, FWb, USB2, HDSDI) that require different software for each, with x amount of people doing software, it is going to be hard. One software solution for all cameras would be best. If we did have one solution accross all thesed cameras and the ability to register for each camnera then there is a sure market including broadcast cameras cameras (HDSDI, Firewire). Still maybe we should stick with Cameralink machine vision, whereever it is GIGBE, USB, or Firewire implementation of it. Whatever the interface it is sent accross we end up with the same command, data, and variable structure.

Sumix (I'm sure SI allready has) needs to come up to you and say, Rob, and Rob ;), please support our cameras, what doi you need to know. They may even have their own capture software, but it would be good to clear the air. The Cameralink standards organisation should also support you (not saying they would though but it would be a great new market opportunity for their members) and co-develope a pro caputure tool with you, maybe some members will. But untimately it would be good to have support in windows as standard.

An interesting idea, have you thought of the idea of a translator program (emulator) that translate HDSDI commands to camerlaink, and cameralink to HDSDI, and camerlink data to HDSDI data, making cameralink appear to be an HD-SDI camera so we can use existing capture software? Then we can use Cinerella??

Wayne Morellini · August 16th, 2004, 07:36 AM

For anbody wanting a Apple Tablet/HF monitor, have a look at this article on a recent Apple patent:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08...ple_tablet_mac

Obin Olson · August 16th, 2004, 08:21 AM

so what monitor do I need to buy that will have a LVDS connector on it?

Rob Scott · August 16th, 2004, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Wayne Morellini wrote:
They do this stuff quiet a bit for the public recognition of being the leading company making things happen (getting the job done), or for profit, or business political reasons (firing a shoot over the shoulder of the competition), or just benevoulance (like their giving moiney to charity).

I'm not convinced that they'd touch a project like this. Sony or Panasonic could provide a product like this if they wanted, and there is a reason they don't -- they want to keep the price high for professionals. Apple (et. al.) want to stay on friendly terms with these companies, and a project like this could be seen as an attempt to undercut them. Politically I think it would be a hard sell.

Wayne Morellini · August 16th, 2004, 09:43 AM

If it was discussed privately and the approaches were done privately, instread of here, we would have room to manouver before somebody at those companies finds out. While Apple is cosy with it's editing line other companies aren't. Other comnpanies might be more inclined to support this, as they don't give too much of a rats ... what their competitors PS2 think, or have no connections to the video industry. Twianese, Indian, Chineese and Korean competitiors might not care what their broadcast competitiors think, and might do it just to spite those companies. Don't worry, there are plenty of people that knock even the idea of this project, but solutions canbe found.

Obin Olson · August 16th, 2004, 10:24 AM

OK I have the 3300RGB..Steve what needs to be changed to view this camera with our CineLink software? is it as simple as a larger ROI/area frame size? if it's more can you please send me the DOCS for this camera?

thx

Steve Nordhauser · August 16th, 2004, 12:40 PM

OK, I take a 3 day weekend and get 5 pages in this thread to catch up on. Don't look for a video out from out cameras any time soon. Not until we put some intelligence in first so it will be awhile. For preview, I advocate using 4 pixel "quadlets" to create a 1/4 resolution color image with no processing.

That might work nicely with the VGA touchscreens - 720p is 1280x720 so a 640x360 preview image leaves room for some menu controls.

Joonas Kiviharju · August 16th, 2004, 12:55 PM

Lately I've been doing some modelling and designing camera-looks. So this is just a mockup for the very distant future, where we could really make the camera case any shape we want to. The physical size of this one should be quite small - maybe slightly bigger than an XL2 (with lens).

http://pupuedit.sourceforge.net/camera/pihlaja_HDO4.png

This is not that serious really. I'm just having fun modelling.

Obin Olson · August 17th, 2004, 07:53 AM

after taking test shots with my Canon 10D and the new SI3300RGB I have found that the range on the 3300 is about like the 10D in RAW mode..this is good news to my ears...anyone else?

Also it seems that to show the same amount of color I must boost the 3300 about 45% on the saturation level..not sure why but this chip seems to be less color heavy then others..not as bad as IBIS but not as good as Canon 10D...over all good stuff!

Wayne Morellini · August 17th, 2004, 09:44 AM

Joonas

I agree on the camera case, nice. I read you wanted to do a case, but I couldn't find where you said that.

I was thinking of doing a few cases, myself, but haven't got around to it and finding manufacturers. I have most of the specs and components in my head (very good virtual reality modeller ;). Actually i was talking to somebody, but they seemed to suddenlly dissapear and I haven't heard back, whatever happened to Rai??

Steve N

I agree about the preveiw, we are dealing with GBGR any way, that is close to RGB pixel. If you want a bit more resolution for focusing I suggest that with an RGB LCD with RGB cells in the pixels you can address the subpixels (so a 640*480 display becomes 1920*480 focusable display).

Another suggestion for the preview display, is to add a instant magnifyer feature for focusing, where you touch a button and the centre comes up double size while you hold it.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser :That might work nicely with the VGA touchscreens - 720p is 1280x720 so a 640x360 preview image leaves room for some menu controls. -->>>

Obin

Is the 3300 presenting more natural colours, and the Canon boosting them?

I think the 3300 is exciting, not because it is the best thing since sliced bread, but because it is a camera we can use (without problems). I look forward to seeing it, the footage from the previouse model looked exciting, this should be more.

Wayne Morellini · August 17th, 2004, 09:53 AM

Rob I would, and we can only try. It's not going to be simple or easy, but a rejection should come fast, so it is worth a go, otherwise we won't know. Just look at how Bill sold IBM his non existent DOS, I know some of the history that lead upto that. They turned down buying Atari, doing CPM, doing 68000 (probably linux), they even had a crack at buying Apple, but Bill pulled it off. He out did those companies, despite not having their power, money, infrastructure, or reputation, he even had to go and buy the OS from somebody else. I hate to say it, but truely a victory for the little guy (at that stage). If he can do it, we should be able to get some help in return for a million dollers worth of marketable publicity. Something like this should be able to hit the news lines of every major IT news site and magazine, not to mention the video sites and magazines. What we are saying going to them, is that we are here, and we want to make something of it, permanmently.

The world out there is a jungle of competing politics and business interests, even in companies, that get mixed up and stirred around. With certain people, at a certain place, in certain circumstances and times, things are possible, but we won't know until we put the spoon in and pull it out.

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : Wayne: sure, sponsorship would be great. But I'm not sure how
that would work or how to approach etc. Not too sure on who would actually want to do that (can't really see a reason why). -->>>

Jason Rodriguez · August 17th, 2004, 11:35 AM

Wayne,

I think there's something you're overlooking in this whole situation when you're thinking of pitching this idea to a big company.

Money spent on marketing

These are all companies that are owned by shareholders. They're not going to be spending a ton of money on projects that they then have to turn around and market for millions of dollars to get sales. How much money do you think Sony spends on marketing? How about Panasonic?

With big company $$$'s comes big company beaurocracy, big company ideas, much of them the antithesis of what we're trying to do here.

Why do you think Linux is doing so well as an underground movement, finally catching the attention of the big boys (IBM)? This stuff that we're doing is grassroots stuff, not big company consumerism.

Now to buiseness :-)

Obin, how 'bout posting some pics from the new 3300 :-)

BTW, were these new pics from your new capture app?

Obin Olson · August 18th, 2004, 07:56 AM

gone for a few days on vacation..hold down the fort for me!

I will be Mountain Biking in the North Carolina Mountains, maybe even get some white water rafting in ;)

I expect to have a working version of our CineLInk capture software when I get back!

Will post lots of stuff when I get back on Sunday

have fun !
keep it real!

August 16th, 2004, 01:00 AM	#1441
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Wayne: sure, sponsorship would be great. But I'm not sure how that would work or how to approach etc. Not too sure on who would actually want to do that (can't really see a reason why). Jason: he is using the Sony CineAlta, same one as George is using for Star Wars. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

August 16th, 2004, 12:40 PM	#1449
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	OK, I take a 3 day weekend and get 5 pages in this thread to catch up on. Don't look for a video out from out cameras any time soon. Not until we put some intelligence in first so it will be awhile. For preview, I advocate using 4 pixel "quadlets" to create a 1/4 resolution color image with no processing. That might work nicely with the VGA touchscreens - 720p is 1280x720 so a 640x360 preview image leaves room for some menu controls. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

August 16th, 2004, 12:55 PM	#1450
Joonas Kiviharju Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 52	Just a design mockup for the distant future... Lately I've been doing some modelling and designing camera-looks. So this is just a mockup for the very distant future, where we could really make the camera case any shape we want to. The physical size of this one should be quite small - maybe slightly bigger than an XL2 (with lens). http://pupuedit.sourceforge.net/camera/pihlaja_HDO4.png This is not that serious really. I'm just having fun modelling.

August 17th, 2004, 09:44 AM	#1452
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	LCD preview, Case etc. Joonas I agree on the camera case, nice. I read you wanted to do a case, but I couldn't find where you said that. I was thinking of doing a few cases, myself, but haven't got around to it and finding manufacturers. I have most of the specs and components in my head (very good virtual reality modeller ;). Actually i was talking to somebody, but they seemed to suddenlly dissapear and I haven't heard back, whatever happened to Rai?? Steve N I agree about the preveiw, we are dealing with GBGR any way, that is close to RGB pixel. If you want a bit more resolution for focusing I suggest that with an RGB LCD with RGB cells in the pixels you can address the subpixels (so a 640480 display becomes 1920480 focusable display). Another suggestion for the preview display, is to add a instant magnifyer feature for focusing, where you touch a button and the centre comes up double size while you hold it. <<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser :That might work nicely with the VGA touchscreens - 720p is 1280x720 so a 640x360 preview image leaves room for some menu controls. -->>> Obin Is the 3300 presenting more natural colours, and the Canon boosting them? I think the 3300 is exciting, not because it is the best thing since sliced bread, but because it is a camera we can use (without problems). I look forward to seeing it, the footage from the previouse model looked exciting, this should be more.

August 16th, 2004, 02:55 AM	#1443
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : Wayne: sure, sponsorship would be great. But I'm not sure how that would work or how to approach etc. Not too sure on who would actually want to do that (can't really see a reason why). -->>> I see your reasonning. They do this stuff quiet a bit for the public recognition of being the leading company making things happen (getting the job done), or for profit, or business political reasons (firing a shoot over the shoulder of the competition), or just benevoulance (like their giving moiney to charity). They like to be seen as the ones solving problems. Companies with lots of money are the most likely companies to fund thius sort of thing. The free publicity they get out of it canbe many times the outlay, and keeps them in the industry, or public's, mind as a leading coimpany to do business with. But you don't just storm the beaches with people onmass asking all at once, you have one, or two, select people that work togther to liase with the companies. We have a bit of a problem though, because the companies in the market might not like to do it for business reasons. So we have to find other companies. As it is a computer, machine vision/surveilence related they are the most likely companies, with computer companies also have the most cash to spend on these sorts of things. Just think of all the things IBM. Xerox, Apple, MS etc etc etc etc get upto that have no real bearing on their profits, but on their reputation. You can buy industry and customer loyalty through reputation and status. But at the moment we are so divided between different camps (CL, GBE, FWb, USB2, HDSDI) that require different software for each, with x amount of people doing software, it is going to be hard. One software solution for all cameras would be best. If we did have one solution accross all thesed cameras and the ability to register for each camnera then there is a sure market including broadcast cameras cameras (HDSDI, Firewire). Still maybe we should stick with Cameralink machine vision, whereever it is GIGBE, USB, or Firewire implementation of it. Whatever the interface it is sent accross we end up with the same command, data, and variable structure. Sumix (I'm sure SI allready has) needs to come up to you and say, Rob, and Rob ;), please support our cameras, what doi you need to know. They may even have their own capture software, but it would be good to clear the air. The Cameralink standards organisation should also support you (not saying they would though but it would be a great new market opportunity for their members) and co-develope a pro caputure tool with you, maybe some members will. But untimately it would be good to have support in windows as standard. An interesting idea, have you thought of the idea of a translator program (emulator) that translate HDSDI commands to camerlaink, and cameralink to HDSDI, and camerlink data to HDSDI data, making cameralink appear to be an HD-SDI camera so we can use existing capture software? Then we can use Cinerella??

August 16th, 2004, 07:36 AM	#1444
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	For anbody wanting a Apple Tablet/HF monitor, have a look at this article on a recent Apple patent: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08...ple_tablet_mac

August 16th, 2004, 08:21 AM	#1445
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	so what monitor do I need to buy that will have a LVDS connector on it?

August 16th, 2004, 09:43 AM	#1447
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	If it was discussed privately and the approaches were done privately, instread of here, we would have room to manouver before somebody at those companies finds out. While Apple is cosy with it's editing line other companies aren't. Other comnpanies might be more inclined to support this, as they don't give too much of a rats ... what their competitors PS2 think, or have no connections to the video industry. Twianese, Indian, Chineese and Korean competitiors might not care what their broadcast competitiors think, and might do it just to spite those companies. Don't worry, there are plenty of people that knock even the idea of this project, but solutions canbe found.

August 16th, 2004, 10:24 AM	#1448
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	OK I have the 3300RGB..Steve what needs to be changed to view this camera with our CineLink software? is it as simple as a larger ROI/area frame size? if it's more can you please send me the DOCS for this camera? thx

August 17th, 2004, 07:53 AM	#1451
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	after taking test shots with my Canon 10D and the new SI3300RGB I have found that the range on the 3300 is about like the 10D in RAW mode..this is good news to my ears...anyone else? Also it seems that to show the same amount of color I must boost the 3300 about 45% on the saturation level..not sure why but this chip seems to be less color heavy then others..not as bad as IBIS but not as good as Canon 10D...over all good stuff!

August 17th, 2004, 09:53 AM	#1453
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Rob I would, and we can only try. It's not going to be simple or easy, but a rejection should come fast, so it is worth a go, otherwise we won't know. Just look at how Bill sold IBM his non existent DOS, I know some of the history that lead upto that. They turned down buying Atari, doing CPM, doing 68000 (probably linux), they even had a crack at buying Apple, but Bill pulled it off. He out did those companies, despite not having their power, money, infrastructure, or reputation, he even had to go and buy the OS from somebody else. I hate to say it, but truely a victory for the little guy (at that stage). If he can do it, we should be able to get some help in return for a million dollers worth of marketable publicity. Something like this should be able to hit the news lines of every major IT news site and magazine, not to mention the video sites and magazines. What we are saying going to them, is that we are here, and we want to make something of it, permanmently. The world out there is a jungle of competing politics and business interests, even in companies, that get mixed up and stirred around. With certain people, at a certain place, in certain circumstances and times, things are possible, but we won't know until we put the spoon in and pull it out. <<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : Wayne: sure, sponsorship would be great. But I'm not sure how that would work or how to approach etc. Not too sure on who would actually want to do that (can't really see a reason why). -->>>

August 17th, 2004, 11:35 AM	#1454
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Wayne, I think there's something you're overlooking in this whole situation when you're thinking of pitching this idea to a big company. Money spent on marketing These are all companies that are owned by shareholders. They're not going to be spending a ton of money on projects that they then have to turn around and market for millions of dollars to get sales. How much money do you think Sony spends on marketing? How about Panasonic? With big company $$$'s comes big company beaurocracy, big company ideas, much of them the antithesis of what we're trying to do here. Why do you think Linux is doing so well as an underground movement, finally catching the attention of the big boys (IBM)? This stuff that we're doing is grassroots stuff, not big company consumerism. Now to buiseness :-) Obin, how 'bout posting some pics from the new 3300 :-) BTW, were these new pics from your new capture app?

August 18th, 2004, 07:56 AM	#1455
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	gone for a few days on vacation..hold down the fort for me! I will be Mountain Biking in the North Carolina Mountains, maybe even get some white water rafting in ;) I expect to have a working version of our CineLInk capture software when I get back! Will post lots of stuff when I get back on Sunday have fun ! keep it real!