4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Aaron Shaw · August 14th, 2004, 10:41 AM

>>Try this: Show some HDV and some DV to some laypersons on an adequate monitor . Ask *them* which one looks better. Artifacts and all.
Everybody I've shown the stuff to picks the JVC footage. <<

Interesting. Have you displayed this on an SD tv though (since most of the population will be using such to view DVDs)? It seems like downconverting would be likely to cause problems and then you're still left with a single chip image. I don't know anything for sure though :).

Obin Olson · August 14th, 2004, 07:04 PM

Gawd! the storm did some damage!! I drove around in it taking pics of stuff thrown around...then I went surfing in the 8 foot + waves! now I am at the local Java bar...uploading the pics for the local newspaper ;) fun fun.. our house still has no power!

Jason Rodriguez · August 14th, 2004, 07:33 PM

Awh man, sorry about the power thing. When Isabel came through here last year, many of us were out of power for two-three weeks! FEMA was passing out gas generators in many neighborhoods, and at night all I could hear for two weeks was the gutteral chatter of generators-the streets smelled like I was riding behind a lawn mower.

Anyways, glad to hear you're all safe,

and oh, great surf! :-)

Obin Olson · August 14th, 2004, 08:29 PM

anyone who has the answer:

what is the bayer pattern of the 1300 and or 3300 Silicon Imaging cameras?

RGGB BGGR GGBR?????
I need to know asap for my programmer

what he is telling me:

"The main problem is that I also do not have the exact Bayer pattern from the camera and I have to code things by feel"

Rob Scott · August 14th, 2004, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Obin Olson wrote:
what is the bayer pattern of the 1300 and or 3300 Silicon Imaging cameras?

First line: GRGR ...
Second line: BGBG...
...and so on.

Obin Olson · August 14th, 2004, 09:10 PM

thx Rob

Guys:

what is an LVDS connector? and what monitors can connect to that?

it seems to be on some of the small boards that have DUAL head they have DVI AND LVDS....what is it?

Steve how can we have a DVI/VGA OUT from the Silicon Imaging cameras built in? this would solve so many issues for us..that would allow RAW data capture by the computer and a bypass of the video signal that could then be sent out to a monitor and viewfinder..can this be done?

then all the horsepower would be used for image CAPTURE

dunno..just thinking out loud

Rob Lohman · August 15th, 2004, 05:57 AM

LVDS

Quote:

In addition to general purpose point-to-point applications and multipoint applications, LVDS has been used for several years as an interface to flat panel displays. As a result, it is used extensively in notebook computers

Source: http://www.9xmedia.com/Pages/Technology%20-%20LVDS.html

On my recent web journey's I came accross some other stuff:

Ibase makes miniITX board for Transmeta 1GHz chip
Harddrive test
New VIA chipset with dual Pci-Express 16x channels

Wayne Morellini · August 15th, 2004, 11:16 AM

LVDS

Did I read that Camerlink is based on it, Steve?

The via dual PCIE link is broken.

<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : thx Rob
Steve how can we have a DVI/VGA OUT from the Silicon Imaging cameras built in? this would solve so many -->>>

That would be interesting, that VIA MB comming out will have DVI in/out (by the looks of it).

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Scott :
In fact, this weekend, a cousin of mine (actually a cousin-in-law, who oddly enough is also named Rob!) is going -->>>

Maybe you guys should take on a knick name so we can tell you apart, like: Rob, Bob, Tod, sod, or attack of the clones1 clone2 clone3 etc ;-)

Well since I have been feeling a lot better, I have been thinking of the possibility of doing a capture program for USB, Firewire, and Gigabit, as they are going to be the real future of low cost HD. I sketched up a kickass draft menu/control structure spec last night. Simple stuff that gives a strandard front end/controls and backend interface. It allows for all facets, and would allow people to plug in custom programs, hardware and do simple menue/screen files and changes. I am looking at some propper fast embedded OS's to do it on (or Linux, DOS etc) (maybe Apple will have a computer good enough to fit in a small shoulder case, hmm... I just had the ultimate thought on that subject). But I haven't got through the other stuff on the project yet, and I am looking at another one to two thousand pages of print out on my desk to add to the other eight (who would ever think reading was so slow ;), and I am loosing interest in doing it.

But we allready have Rob's, Obins and who ever else capture program (Ben??) (I actually know of at least two more, only one for us). I think I'm getting "stir crazy" like others here, and finding it hard to wait to next year to do something. Are any of you guys going to have anything soon? Are any of you guys doing support for USB, firwireb, Ethernet or HDSDI?

Ahhgggh the waiting, Michael Angelo, when when! ;)

Rob Lohman · August 15th, 2004, 11:27 AM

Wayne: I fixed the link, sorry bout that.

Next year was the estimation for having a reliable shooting
product Wayne. Developing products takes a while, especially
if you can't do it fulltime.

The basis for the camera is already quite developed. Rob S.
has it running with disk recording, camera control and color
preview. I'm working on compression and some other efforts
and work has also started on the convert application which
other programmers should be able to extend soon.

We are setting up the whole architecture up as flexible as
possible so it should not be too hard to support GigE Ethernet.

Don't expect USB2/firewire support since basically it just isn't
fast nor scalable enough (it won't drive the higher res chips
for example). At the moment it is cameralink only. I was hoping
to get the camera with a GigE interface so Rob S. can develop
the cameralink driver and I could do the GigE driver. However,
I don't have the cash to get the camera at this point in time.

So we'll have to wait and see how GigE turns out. However, the
most important thing is the whole platform. Once that is in place,
running smoothly and optimized it shouldn't be too hard to add
drivers for other communication channels that are now available
or will be available in the future.

I understand everyone is excited, but as Obin already found it,
you don't develop a complete product in a couple of weeks!

If all goes well you guys should see some actual stuff coming
from Rob S. and myself shortly.

Wayne Morellini · August 15th, 2004, 11:57 AM

Just did another swing pass the tape issue, no luck yet expensive for the sort of rates we want. But found this reference for 150 Terabytes of video for Lord of the Rings (how much of the budget did they blow on that??, and was that at only 2Mp or 8??)). That is why I wanted to look at tape so you could backup a couple of Terabyte of storage cheaply (compared to buying X number of drives) (The articles still say that tape is half the cost per mb (and 30 year shelf life), but I think that is compared to expensive server disk setuips rather tthan cheaper consumer drives).

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1012597,00.asp

Wayne Morellini · August 15th, 2004, 12:44 PM

Rob, when can you get to the stage of pro control, capture RAW, and convert, that would be all we need, it looks like your pretty close.

Yes it is part time, but what about sponsorship? With sponsorship we could get money to do it full time or get professional developement. I would love to approach Apple to see if they could support us and maybe do a special ICam edition computer for the camera? Or some other company that gets involved in these sorts of things, as a Public Relations excercise. Imagine the headlines, "Apple makes life possible for low end Indie Film makers, with new Icam based on XXDVinfo alternative HD system." (or something a bit shorter like "Apple saves Indie with Icam";) (actually, I'll copyright that one, if you want it buy me a good HD Raw camera system, ;-)E).

Cameralink, yes, gigabit Ethernet yes, high end cameras, Firewire 1600, USB3 (300-500MB's??), and 10Gigabit Ethernet are coming, so it is worth supporting present versions as a bridge to the new versions. We must remember that Steve I and Sumix started this, and we were going to support their cameras. I think we owe something to them (though they do not come here and talk to us), as they are developing good product on Firewire800 and compressed 3 chip cameras for us. We can assume that at sometime, even upfront, they will be packed, memory buffered (reducing the bandwidth to 1080 24p to 48MB/s independent to the shutter speed) making even USB2.0 possible (with a good driver) so Firewire800 compressed 3 chip is a possibility. All their announced products follow the recommendations I posted prior to the announcement, it is obviouse they are at least following these threads. The truth is camerlink is dead (eventually), you would have to go upto Ultra HD 3 chip to need it (unless I'm wrong on it's capacity). I'll put it this way, if Firewire is more reliable with less cpu overhead than gigabit ethernet, than I would say yes we should look at it, but if Summix drops it in favour of the Gigabit Ethernet/ 10GBe path than I say we shouldn't bother about it. Problem is, did Sumix select Firwire because there is some future broadcast industry universal capture standard we don't know of? Since we don't talk to Sumix (excpet for mainly Ben and Steve I), we don't know what is happening to support them.

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob
I understand everyone is excited, but as Obin already found it,you don't develop a complete product in a couple of weeks!

If all goes well you guys should see some actual stuff coming from Rob S. and myself shortly. -->>>

I understand how long it takes, but I know you where ahead on a number of items and have been on it for months (has it been mnonths allready). So I'll be glad to see your stuff shortly.

I am going to look for cheap but nice cameras, to lower the overall system cost to under $2000 (without expensive software or lense). Ohh..nobrainer, I just figured something out, Cinerella should support Firewire 800 (in 12 bit with camera capture), If Sumix has been reading these threads they would have seen us talking about it :) . That means they don't need our software and can develope a more universal system. They simply can roickup and present an entire camera with software package. We are going to have to talk to them. I was going to talk to Cinerella shortly myself anyway.

Wayne Morellini · August 15th, 2004, 03:12 PM

OK, I have found out more about the wireless version of USB, which maybe the USB3 I saw in the article at the register (or the enquirer) sometime ago.

It is meant to go beyond 400Mb/s (b for bit). Bluetooth is dead meat, yeah. So that rep that replied to my letter in the Australian about USB bluetooth debacle can get n...ted (ohh believe me "the wicked witch is dead", time to get back to Kansas Dorothy).

There is some movement in the wideband comms sector, but unfortunately I closed the other article and haven't got a link here.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1530522,00.asp
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1530755,00.asp
http://www.uwbforum.org/membership/membership.asp

Ahh here we are, and even firewire wireless demonstration (after how many years??)

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1528297,00.asp

Periphials by years end.
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1634014,00.asp

Other highspeed (540Mbs IEEE 802.11n) wireless stuff:
http://www.convergedigest.com/WiFi/w...e.asp?ID=11995

Well, looks like you can wireless a few USB/Firewire cameras before we know it.

Obin Olson · August 15th, 2004, 07:20 PM

ok so what displays are on the market now??

I would need an LVDS monitor for this ...ideas?

Jason Rodriguez · August 15th, 2004, 08:20 PM

The board I showed you also had VGA out. It's the Axiomtek SBC83810.

Jason Keenan · August 15th, 2004, 11:13 PM

Another leftfield comment.

Over the last couple of days I have been haunted by "Rodriguez's". It seems that every time I pick up a piece of paper, it has the name "Rodriguez" on it. Not the same one mind you, all different ones. Wierd.

Anyway, I was thinking, I wonder if Robert Rodriguez might be interested in supporting a low budget HD project like this. Apparently he is shooting exclusively on digital now so I imagine he would be interested if he had the time. Maybe even throwing some cash in. You never know your luck in the big city.

Anyone know what he shoots on???

Raavin :)

August 15th, 2004, 11:27 AM	#1434
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Wayne: I fixed the link, sorry bout that. Next year was the estimation for having a reliable shooting product Wayne. Developing products takes a while, especially if you can't do it fulltime. The basis for the camera is already quite developed. Rob S. has it running with disk recording, camera control and color preview. I'm working on compression and some other efforts and work has also started on the convert application which other programmers should be able to extend soon. We are setting up the whole architecture up as flexible as possible so it should not be too hard to support GigE Ethernet. Don't expect USB2/firewire support since basically it just isn't fast nor scalable enough (it won't drive the higher res chips for example). At the moment it is cameralink only. I was hoping to get the camera with a GigE interface so Rob S. can develop the cameralink driver and I could do the GigE driver. However, I don't have the cash to get the camera at this point in time. So we'll have to wait and see how GigE turns out. However, the most important thing is the whole platform. Once that is in place, running smoothly and optimized it shouldn't be too hard to add drivers for other communication channels that are now available or will be available in the future. I understand everyone is excited, but as Obin already found it, you don't develop a complete product in a couple of weeks! If all goes well you guys should see some actual stuff coming from Rob S. and myself shortly. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

August 14th, 2004, 10:41 AM	#1426
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	>>Try this: Show some HDV and some DV to some laypersons on an adequate monitor . Ask them which one looks better. Artifacts and all. Everybody I've shown the stuff to picks the JVC footage. << Interesting. Have you displayed this on an SD tv though (since most of the population will be using such to view DVDs)? It seems like downconverting would be likely to cause problems and then you're still left with a single chip image. I don't know anything for sure though :).

August 14th, 2004, 07:04 PM	#1427
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Gawd! the storm did some damage!! I drove around in it taking pics of stuff thrown around...then I went surfing in the 8 foot + waves! now I am at the local Java bar...uploading the pics for the local newspaper ;) fun fun.. our house still has no power!

August 14th, 2004, 07:33 PM	#1428
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Awh man, sorry about the power thing. When Isabel came through here last year, many of us were out of power for two-three weeks! FEMA was passing out gas generators in many neighborhoods, and at night all I could hear for two weeks was the gutteral chatter of generators-the streets smelled like I was riding behind a lawn mower. Anyways, glad to hear you're all safe, and oh, great surf! :-)

August 14th, 2004, 08:29 PM	#1429
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	anyone who has the answer: what is the bayer pattern of the 1300 and or 3300 Silicon Imaging cameras? RGGB BGGR GGBR????? I need to know asap for my programmer what he is telling me: "The main problem is that I also do not have the exact Bayer pattern from the camera and I have to code things by feel"

August 14th, 2004, 09:10 PM	#1431
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	thx Rob Guys: what is an LVDS connector? and what monitors can connect to that? it seems to be on some of the small boards that have DUAL head they have DVI AND LVDS....what is it? Steve how can we have a DVI/VGA OUT from the Silicon Imaging cameras built in? this would solve so many issues for us..that would allow RAW data capture by the computer and a bypass of the video signal that could then be sent out to a monitor and viewfinder..can this be done? then all the horsepower would be used for image CAPTURE dunno..just thinking out loud

August 15th, 2004, 11:16 AM	#1433
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	LVDS Did I read that Camerlink is based on it, Steve? The via dual PCIE link is broken. <<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : thx Rob Steve how can we have a DVI/VGA OUT from the Silicon Imaging cameras built in? this would solve so many -->>> That would be interesting, that VIA MB comming out will have DVI in/out (by the looks of it). <<<-- Originally posted by Rob Scott : In fact, this weekend, a cousin of mine (actually a cousin-in-law, who oddly enough is also named Rob!) is going -->>> Maybe you guys should take on a knick name so we can tell you apart, like: Rob, Bob, Tod, sod, or attack of the clones1 clone2 clone3 etc ;-) Well since I have been feeling a lot better, I have been thinking of the possibility of doing a capture program for USB, Firewire, and Gigabit, as they are going to be the real future of low cost HD. I sketched up a kickass draft menu/control structure spec last night. Simple stuff that gives a strandard front end/controls and backend interface. It allows for all facets, and would allow people to plug in custom programs, hardware and do simple menue/screen files and changes. I am looking at some propper fast embedded OS's to do it on (or Linux, DOS etc) (maybe Apple will have a computer good enough to fit in a small shoulder case, hmm... I just had the ultimate thought on that subject). But I haven't got through the other stuff on the project yet, and I am looking at another one to two thousand pages of print out on my desk to add to the other eight (who would ever think reading was so slow ;), and I am loosing interest in doing it. But we allready have Rob's, Obins and who ever else capture program (Ben??) (I actually know of at least two more, only one for us). I think I'm getting "stir crazy" like others here, and finding it hard to wait to next year to do something. Are any of you guys going to have anything soon? Are any of you guys doing support for USB, firwireb, Ethernet or HDSDI? Ahhgggh the waiting, Michael Angelo, when when! ;)

August 15th, 2004, 11:57 AM	#1435
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Just did another swing pass the tape issue, no luck yet expensive for the sort of rates we want. But found this reference for 150 Terabytes of video for Lord of the Rings (how much of the budget did they blow on that??, and was that at only 2Mp or 8??)). That is why I wanted to look at tape so you could backup a couple of Terabyte of storage cheaply (compared to buying X number of drives) (The articles still say that tape is half the cost per mb (and 30 year shelf life), but I think that is compared to expensive server disk setuips rather tthan cheaper consumer drives). http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1012597,00.asp

August 15th, 2004, 12:44 PM	#1436
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Rob, when can you get to the stage of pro control, capture RAW, and convert, that would be all we need, it looks like your pretty close. Yes it is part time, but what about sponsorship? With sponsorship we could get money to do it full time or get professional developement. I would love to approach Apple to see if they could support us and maybe do a special ICam edition computer for the camera? Or some other company that gets involved in these sorts of things, as a Public Relations excercise. Imagine the headlines, "Apple makes life possible for low end Indie Film makers, with new Icam based on XXDVinfo alternative HD system." (or something a bit shorter like "Apple saves Indie with Icam";) (actually, I'll copyright that one, if you want it buy me a good HD Raw camera system, ;-)E). Cameralink, yes, gigabit Ethernet yes, high end cameras, Firewire 1600, USB3 (300-500MB's??), and 10Gigabit Ethernet are coming, so it is worth supporting present versions as a bridge to the new versions. We must remember that Steve I and Sumix started this, and we were going to support their cameras. I think we owe something to them (though they do not come here and talk to us), as they are developing good product on Firewire800 and compressed 3 chip cameras for us. We can assume that at sometime, even upfront, they will be packed, memory buffered (reducing the bandwidth to 1080 24p to 48MB/s independent to the shutter speed) making even USB2.0 possible (with a good driver) so Firewire800 compressed 3 chip is a possibility. All their announced products follow the recommendations I posted prior to the announcement, it is obviouse they are at least following these threads. The truth is camerlink is dead (eventually), you would have to go upto Ultra HD 3 chip to need it (unless I'm wrong on it's capacity). I'll put it this way, if Firewire is more reliable with less cpu overhead than gigabit ethernet, than I would say yes we should look at it, but if Summix drops it in favour of the Gigabit Ethernet/ 10GBe path than I say we shouldn't bother about it. Problem is, did Sumix select Firwire because there is some future broadcast industry universal capture standard we don't know of? Since we don't talk to Sumix (excpet for mainly Ben and Steve I), we don't know what is happening to support them. <<<-- Originally posted by Rob I understand everyone is excited, but as Obin already found it,you don't develop a complete product in a couple of weeks! If all goes well you guys should see some actual stuff coming from Rob S. and myself shortly. -->>> I understand how long it takes, but I know you where ahead on a number of items and have been on it for months (has it been mnonths allready). So I'll be glad to see your stuff shortly. I am going to look for cheap but nice cameras, to lower the overall system cost to under $2000 (without expensive software or lense). Ohh..nobrainer, I just figured something out, Cinerella should support Firewire 800 (in 12 bit with camera capture), If Sumix has been reading these threads they would have seen us talking about it :) . That means they don't need our software and can develope a more universal system. They simply can roickup and present an entire camera with software package. We are going to have to talk to them. I was going to talk to Cinerella shortly myself anyway.

August 15th, 2004, 03:12 PM	#1437
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	OK, I have found out more about the wireless version of USB, which maybe the USB3 I saw in the article at the register (or the enquirer) sometime ago. It is meant to go beyond 400Mb/s (b for bit). Bluetooth is dead meat, yeah. So that rep that replied to my letter in the Australian about USB bluetooth debacle can get n...ted (ohh believe me "the wicked witch is dead", time to get back to Kansas Dorothy). There is some movement in the wideband comms sector, but unfortunately I closed the other article and haven't got a link here. http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1530522,00.asp http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1530755,00.asp http://www.uwbforum.org/membership/membership.asp Ahh here we are, and even firewire wireless demonstration (after how many years??) http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1528297,00.asp Periphials by years end. http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1634014,00.asp Other highspeed (540Mbs IEEE 802.11n) wireless stuff: http://www.convergedigest.com/WiFi/w...e.asp?ID=11995 Well, looks like you can wireless a few USB/Firewire cameras before we know it.

August 15th, 2004, 07:20 PM	#1438
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	ok so what displays are on the market now?? I would need an LVDS monitor for this ...ideas?

August 15th, 2004, 08:20 PM	#1439
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	The board I showed you also had VGA out. It's the Axiomtek SBC83810.

August 15th, 2004, 11:13 PM	#1440
Jason Keenan New Boot Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 19	Another leftfield comment. Over the last couple of days I have been haunted by "Rodriguez's". It seems that every time I pick up a piece of paper, it has the name "Rodriguez" on it. Not the same one mind you, all different ones. Wierd. Anyway, I was thinking, I wonder if Robert Rodriguez might be interested in supporting a low budget HD project like this. Apparently he is shooting exclusively on digital now so I imagine he would be interested if he had the time. Maybe even throwing some cash in. You never know your luck in the big city. Anyone know what he shoots on??? Raavin :)