4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Ben Syverson · July 29th, 2004, 10:34 PM

Raavin, the PAL or NTSC-res cameras I've looked at haven't been much less expensive than the HD camera I'm using (which was around $1000). It seems that 720p is kind of the "sweet spot" pricing wise -- more resolution makes the price go up very quickly, but less resolution doesn't cost very much less.

Steve might have more info on this, but I've seen a lot of NTSC-res cameras that are actually much more than $1000, and I'd imagine that the average price would be at least $800.

Basically, if you're going to go to the trouble of doing all this just to get an image, why bother with SD?

- ben

Jason Keenan · July 29th, 2004, 10:38 PM

Sorry to be a pain Ben, but what camera are you using?? I just got through all of the posts after 3 days and it's going to drive me nuts. I thought the camera setup that Obin was using was around $4k US.

Here in Australia, a new XL1 is around $8k plus AUD and a lower range 3CCD camera like the XM2 is still $4.5k. As long as it was under $2k I think there would be heaps of interest. That's as much as a reasonable handycam.

Raavin

Ben Syverson · July 29th, 2004, 10:54 PM

Raavin,

I'm using an SMX-150c from Sumix, which operates over USB 2.0. For right now it's 8bit at 1280x1024, up to 27.5fps at full resolution (and 40fps at 1280x720). However, the company is developing new firmware and software for the camera to enable it to do 10bit -- possibly 10bit log from 12bit data. Anyway, it costs around $1000. I think Obin's camera is actually around that price too -- it's just that his camera necessitates the purchase of a CameraLink PCI board and some expensive software (if I understand correctly). Although he's working on his own software too.

If Sumix can get 10bit out of my camera and address a few usability issues with the software (they're working on it), I think it would be a great alternative to prosumer gear like the XM2 for certain projects. Even at 8bit, downsized to DV-resolution, the images I'm getting far surpass what you can get with prosumer cameras.

Juan, that sounds like an interesting setup, but it would necessitate the creation of an alternate bayer filter for the sensor, and from what Steve just said, it sounds like that's in the US$1,000,000 range. A bit out of my league. :)

- ben

Obin Olson · July 30th, 2004, 12:15 AM

"http://obin.weet.us/color_8bit_cinelink.jpg

---a capture with CineLink...opened the RAW file in photoshop convert to 8bit and apply a bayer filter plugin

Original RAW file:
http://obin.weet.us/Rec00001.raw

Ben can you write a plugin that allows AfterEffects to open that RAW file and apply a Bayer filter on it? I think it's a 10bit file...not sure..should be the same as the last RAW file I posted

Ben Syverson · July 30th, 2004, 12:18 AM

If you can get it into AE, you can apply my filter. But I've never coded an import plug-in before...

It should be relatively easy to write a command-line converter for your RAW files. All you need to do is slap a 16-bit TIFF header together with the data, and you've got a valid 16-bit TIFF. Could be coded in an afternoon...

Obin Olson · July 30th, 2004, 12:23 AM

want to take a stab at it Ben...it would help out this project a bit...;)

I am NOT a code writer ;)

Or maybe Scott?

what about a format that is native 10bit? or is the 16bit tiff just as good because the extra bits are zero's so no extra space is taken up?? ?

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · July 30th, 2004, 12:29 AM

BTW, really nice image!!!

Also your last outdoors clip looks really good.There are detailled highlights and shadows.Well done Obin!!

Jason Rodriguez · July 30th, 2004, 04:09 AM

Hey Obin,

What bayer filter plug-in are you using?

Rob Scott · July 30th, 2004, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Ben Syverson wrote:
It should be relatively easy to write a command-line converter for your RAW files. All you need to do is slap a 16-bit TIFF header together with the data, and you've got a valid 16-bit TIFF. Could be coded in an afternoon...

I'm planning a command-line "Convert" app as one of my next phases. It will be open source, so Obin's developer could add support for their RAW format to the app. Once I have made some progress I will probably start a SourceForge project for it.

Obin Olson · July 30th, 2004, 08:11 AM

ok here is a raw convert into BMP 8bit...what is causing this streak? it's not the sensor it has somthing to do with timing I think...ideas anyone? Rob?

http://obin.weet.us/streak.bmp

Les Dit · July 30th, 2004, 11:59 AM

Obin, Looks like a memory pointer was somehow reset to a point higher up in the picture during readout. That's why it is duplicating the image.
-Les

Obin Olson · July 30th, 2004, 05:33 PM

Ok who knows of editing software that can edit 10bit?

I am back to square one....we don't have a way to edit this stuff! LOL..funny that could be...

Rob are you fully in love with the SDK from Epix HA HA HA ;)

we are haveing troubles with it left and right..crappy stuff...did you find a way to capture the RAW black and white image and write that to disk AND display a live color preview?

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · July 30th, 2004, 07:19 PM

Speedrazor is supposed to support 10 bit, it supports Cineon images too...

Rob Scott · July 30th, 2004, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Obin Olson wrote:
Rob are you fully in love with the SDK from Epix HA HA HA ;)

Oh sure, it's the easiest to use and best documented stuff I've ever seen ... not

Quote:

did you find a way to capture the RAW black and white image and write that to disk AND display a live color preview?

Yup.

Les Dit · July 31st, 2004, 12:23 AM

I tried Speed Razor once on Cineons. It didn't like it, it had some kind of "VGA memory" error. I think that SR is very video oriented and they tried to use the graphics card to do a bunch of stuff. I guess that was the way to do things back in those days.
I think SR is a dead product these days.

Let me know if someone does know if it works on XP with the latest directX installed, and with an Nvidia card. Maybe they only worked on some odd ball video card, I don't know.

-Les

<<<-- Originally posted by Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn : Speedrazor is supposed to support 10 bit, it supports Cineon images too... -->>>

July 30th, 2004, 11:59 AM	#1241
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	streak ( duplication of part of image ) Obin, Looks like a memory pointer was somehow reset to a point higher up in the picture during readout. That's why it is duplicating the image. -Les

July 29th, 2004, 10:34 PM	#1231
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	Raavin, the PAL or NTSC-res cameras I've looked at haven't been much less expensive than the HD camera I'm using (which was around $1000). It seems that 720p is kind of the "sweet spot" pricing wise -- more resolution makes the price go up very quickly, but less resolution doesn't cost very much less. Steve might have more info on this, but I've seen a lot of NTSC-res cameras that are actually much more than $1000, and I'd imagine that the average price would be at least $800. Basically, if you're going to go to the trouble of doing all this just to get an image, why bother with SD? - ben

July 29th, 2004, 10:38 PM	#1232
Jason Keenan New Boot Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 19	Sorry to be a pain Ben, but what camera are you using?? I just got through all of the posts after 3 days and it's going to drive me nuts. I thought the camera setup that Obin was using was around $4k US. Here in Australia, a new XL1 is around $8k plus AUD and a lower range 3CCD camera like the XM2 is still $4.5k. As long as it was under $2k I think there would be heaps of interest. That's as much as a reasonable handycam. Raavin

July 29th, 2004, 10:54 PM	#1233
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	Raavin, I'm using an SMX-150c from Sumix, which operates over USB 2.0. For right now it's 8bit at 1280x1024, up to 27.5fps at full resolution (and 40fps at 1280x720). However, the company is developing new firmware and software for the camera to enable it to do 10bit -- possibly 10bit log from 12bit data. Anyway, it costs around $1000. I think Obin's camera is actually around that price too -- it's just that his camera necessitates the purchase of a CameraLink PCI board and some expensive software (if I understand correctly). Although he's working on his own software too. If Sumix can get 10bit out of my camera and address a few usability issues with the software (they're working on it), I think it would be a great alternative to prosumer gear like the XM2 for certain projects. Even at 8bit, downsized to DV-resolution, the images I'm getting far surpass what you can get with prosumer cameras. Juan, that sounds like an interesting setup, but it would necessitate the creation of an alternate bayer filter for the sensor, and from what Steve just said, it sounds like that's in the US$1,000,000 range. A bit out of my league. :) - ben

July 30th, 2004, 12:15 AM	#1234
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	"http://obin.weet.us/color_8bit_cinelink.jpg ---a capture with CineLink...opened the RAW file in photoshop convert to 8bit and apply a bayer filter plugin Original RAW file: http://obin.weet.us/Rec00001.raw Ben can you write a plugin that allows AfterEffects to open that RAW file and apply a Bayer filter on it? I think it's a 10bit file...not sure..should be the same as the last RAW file I posted

July 30th, 2004, 12:18 AM	#1235
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	If you can get it into AE, you can apply my filter. But I've never coded an import plug-in before... It should be relatively easy to write a command-line converter for your RAW files. All you need to do is slap a 16-bit TIFF header together with the data, and you've got a valid 16-bit TIFF. Could be coded in an afternoon...

July 30th, 2004, 12:23 AM	#1236
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	want to take a stab at it Ben...it would help out this project a bit...;) I am NOT a code writer ;) Or maybe Scott? what about a format that is native 10bit? or is the 16bit tiff just as good because the extra bits are zero's so no extra space is taken up?? ?

July 30th, 2004, 12:29 AM	#1237
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	BTW, really nice image!!! Also your last outdoors clip looks really good.There are detailled highlights and shadows.Well done Obin!!

July 30th, 2004, 04:09 AM	#1238
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Hey Obin, What bayer filter plug-in are you using?

July 30th, 2004, 08:11 AM	#1240
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	ok here is a raw convert into BMP 8bit...what is causing this streak? it's not the sensor it has somthing to do with timing I think...ideas anyone? Rob? http://obin.weet.us/streak.bmp

July 30th, 2004, 05:33 PM	#1242
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Ok who knows of editing software that can edit 10bit? I am back to square one....we don't have a way to edit this stuff! LOL..funny that could be... Rob are you fully in love with the SDK from Epix HA HA HA ;) we are haveing troubles with it left and right..crappy stuff...did you find a way to capture the RAW black and white image and write that to disk AND display a live color preview?

July 30th, 2004, 07:19 PM	#1243
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	Speedrazor is supposed to support 10 bit, it supports Cineon images too...

July 31st, 2004, 12:23 AM	#1245
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	I tried Speed Razor once on Cineons. It didn't like it, it had some kind of "VGA memory" error. I think that SR is very video oriented and they tried to use the graphics card to do a bunch of stuff. I guess that was the way to do things back in those days. I think SR is a dead product these days. Let me know if someone does know if it works on XP with the latest directX installed, and with an Nvidia card. Maybe they only worked on some odd ball video card, I don't know. -Les <<<-- Originally posted by Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn : Speedrazor is supposed to support 10 bit, it supports Cineon images too... -->>>