4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Obin Olson · June 4th, 2004, 01:26 PM

go download a version that is a bit less complex at www.norpix.com

Jacques Mersereau · June 4th, 2004, 01:57 PM

I am praying that after reading all the great suggestions for the XL2
that this board provided, that Canon knocks our socks off 7/1/04!

Valeriu Campan · June 4th, 2004, 08:36 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Dennis Jakobsen : Yes I just recieved a pricelist, and the IPX2M30HC is 4,600$...

However that model could only be decreased in its horizontal resolution, and so the framerate would remain the same. But they recommended the IPX2M30C, since this version could.
But I guess they are too expensive...

-->>>

It's good to see a larger sensor. If used with lenses mounted direct would give a FOV of super16.
I don't like the S/N which is less than 60. It would be nice to be at around 65.

Wayne Morellini · June 4th, 2004, 10:55 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : I must clear this up, what I was talking about was NOT a 35mm adaptor but a c-mount lens that would focus macro about30-40mm away from the front on a groundglass from a 35mm rearprojection adaptor so that we can keep the FOV and the DOF of the 35mm lens.... -->>>

Sorry, I was thinking of getting rid of the need for the lense in the c-mount first place (makes it shorter, and probably opticall truer), then you can swap between straight 35 mm and with relay and straight C-mount anytime you like.

Laurence Maher · June 5th, 2004, 04:30 AM

Hey guys,

What type of color separation does the IPX2M30HC have? 4:2:2? What type of interface does it have. Described it as "DIGITAL"? That's vague to me. Does the $4600 include capture software so you can hook it directly up to a pc or mac? I'm not sure what the difference of 60 Mhz signal to noise ratio as compared to 65 means? Will someone explain this? What's the output rate to the capturing computer in Mbps?

Also, guys, this is a 16:9 chip (incredibly convenient) and fits directly with C-mount. Does someone make a C-Mount to 35mm slr adapter?

Obin, you said this one can't do different frame rates? Specs said it could (my guess at least 720p at 40 fps). That's not too bad.

It this thing is $4600 total for the camera plus bug-free software to work it, isn't this pretty much the camera we've been looking for, or are you guys shunning it becasue that's too expensive for you?

Give me some input guys.

Thanks.

By the way . . .

Jacques said

"I am praying that after reading all the great suggestions for the XL2
that this board provided, that Canon knocks our socks off 7/1/04!"

Is there some scheduled announcement or product release from Canon on that date regarding the XL-2 HD camera that I haven't heard about yet?

Hey Wayne,

I know this is off subject, but it seems all the threads over at camcorderinfo.com are non-accessable. Man, I wrote you and Jim Messerschmidt some post that took damn near an hour and now it's wiped. You getting the same problem?

Jason Rodriguez · June 5th, 2004, 07:19 AM

With every 6db you're gaining a stop of dynamic range.

Signal-to-Noise ratio basically deals with the amount of signal versus the amount of noise in the image. Every 6db you have basically doubled the percived intensity of the signal (you're one-stop brighter). So at 58db, you're only getting around 9-10 stops of usable dynamic range, although the last 6db at the bottom is typically all noise, so it's more like 8-9stops. Actually most HD cameras only have a S/N ratio of 54db (which gives them a maximum of around 8-8/12 stops), so 60db isn't bad, although digital still cameras can be up to 72db, which gives you a nice clean 11-12 stops of dynamic range, which is getting very close to film.

Obin Olson · June 5th, 2004, 02:18 PM

anyone want to jump in a help me find a "relay" lens as you call it for the agus35 adaptor I made for the dvx100? it's got to fit my c-mount 1300 camera and attach to the agus35 with a 72mm thread mount.....or i can make a new mount at whatever mm we need for the c mount lens

Steve Nordhauser · June 5th, 2004, 06:19 PM

Obin,
There are aparently 3 ways to mount the camera behind the lens (I only knew of two before reading this group). The first and simplist is positioning the sensor at the focal point of the current optics. This would be the film plane. I would allow for some adjustment since it is very difficult to know exactly where the sensor surface is. (to 0.001"). You will see that on the SI-1300, there is a set screw on the nose and a ring that can be turned. This will allow you to move the c mount shoulder with respect to the sensor plane. Whatever adapter you make, you want it to be optically black inside so no stray light rays bounce around and to seal the system unless you are in an optically black box (like the inside of a film camera).

Second, as people have been talking about, you can put a ground glass at the film plane and use a macro c mount lens to focus on the image on the glass.

Third, you can use a relay lens to focus and resize the image from the main optical system. I don't have a clue, other than a ray tracing program like Oslo, how to select the optics. This is the method they frequently use in high end image intensifiers.

The second and third options will resize the image, the first is very simple. You might be able to take the c mount off the 12mm lens I sent you (a CCTV lens, not too valuable after your preliminary testing is done) and find a way to mount that a little in front of the film plane so that the camera sensor is in the right spot. c mount is about 17.5mm so that is the approximate distance from the camera shoulder to the sensor plane. That means the shoulder on the adapter you are making from the lens should be that far in front of the film plane.

I hope.
Steve

Obin Olson · June 5th, 2004, 07:18 PM

yes I fully understand(ihope) what you are saying. I like the 2nd idea because you get the FOV from your 35mm lens but most important you get the depth of field - this is one of the fundamental differences of film and video and overcoming this will be a very important step in the production of the lowcost HD camera that customers would want to shoot feature films on - the ability to pull your subject from the background is something almost every cinematographer wants in his/her camera.

This 1/2inch chip is not even close maybe a 2/3 or 1 inch would do the trick - I know this because I have a broadcast 3ccd camera that has 1/2inch chips and the DOF is not even close to film or super 16mm so a relay/macro lens shooting groundglass and a 35mm on the front would be a stopgap but we need 35mm sized chips EVEN if they are low(1280x720) resolution that is ok

Laurence Maher · June 6th, 2004, 02:14 AM

Gotchya Jason, 6 db for each stop, thanks.

Valeriu Campan · June 6th, 2004, 07:13 AM

Maybe just off topic. Just saw this post on Rob Galbraith site http://www.robgalbraith.com/ubbthrea...b=5&o=&fpart=1 regarding the Canon EOS MKII camera with a 8 Megapixel sensor:
15 fps ... hmmm!!!! if it is believable, consider that this camera doesn't have RAID drives, is designed only for stills work and writes data on CF cards. There is hope that with the proper hardware a HD dream camera is not too far away.

Obin Olson · June 6th, 2004, 01:00 PM

found what may be a great screen for this system once some people get the itX computer made, it's 1024x768 7inches and is touchscreen! I bet that would work well for a monitor/capture pc controller for this project!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3698&item=4134438908&rd=1

Wayne Morellini · June 8th, 2004, 12:26 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jason Rodriguez : With every 6db you're gaining a stop of dynamic range.

Signal-to-Noise ratio basically deals with the amount of signal versus the amount of noise in the image. Every 6db you have basically doubled the percived intensity of the signal (you're one-stop brighter). So at 58db, you're only getting around 9-10 stops of usable dynamic range, although the last 6db at the bottom is typically all noise, so it's more like 8-9stops. Actually most HD cameras only have a S/N ratio of 54db (which gives them a maximum of around 8-8/12 stops), so 60db isn't bad, although digital still cameras can be up to 72db, which gives you a nice clean 11-12 stops of dynamic range, which is getting very close to film. -->>>

I forget how it goes but doesn't it go something like this:

8-bit (each bit doubles value) = 48db + 6db for totally clear image. But for clear low light images you would add the db of the desired gainup, say 24db, that would be 78db dersired s/n, or for 10 bits, 90db. So the 54db is only for clear images in good light.

Some interesting news:

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/sho...5642#post75642

Quote:---
Concept HD
Guys,

Go to the HD Forum of Cinematography.com. You will find many arguments there by professional DP's against the use of industrial HD cameras in HD productions. I would urge everyone to wait for our camera announcements. Our cameras will not have these shortcomings.
----

Haven't had time to read the threads mentioned (haven't even read this thread yet) but well and truely worth looking at. I still say that any machine vision company should be able to pull through the goods, if they want.

Obin Olson · June 8th, 2004, 11:37 AM

pics:

dv3productions.com/test_images/test1.jpg
dv3productions.com/test_images/test2.jpg
dv3productions.com/test_images/test3.jpg
dv3productions.com/test_images/test4.jpg
dv3productions.com/test_images/test5.jpg
dv3productions.com/test_images/test6.jpg
test 4 is a raw/color worked split in half file
the rest have been treated from the RAW format

frames may be a bit blurry because i don't have the software workin right

test5 and test6 are the same location same lighting changed the "look" in photoshop

Rob Scott · June 8th, 2004, 11:43 AM

Obin ... very nice! Is that with your GG adapter or without? I assume you got your software working. Can you e-mail or post a raw file (i.e., pre-Bayer) so I can take a look at it ?

June 4th, 2004, 01:57 PM	#92
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	I am praying that after reading all the great suggestions for the XL2 that this board provided, that Canon knocks our socks off 7/1/04! __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

June 5th, 2004, 06:19 PM	#98
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	Obin, There are aparently 3 ways to mount the camera behind the lens (I only knew of two before reading this group). The first and simplist is positioning the sensor at the focal point of the current optics. This would be the film plane. I would allow for some adjustment since it is very difficult to know exactly where the sensor surface is. (to 0.001"). You will see that on the SI-1300, there is a set screw on the nose and a ring that can be turned. This will allow you to move the c mount shoulder with respect to the sensor plane. Whatever adapter you make, you want it to be optically black inside so no stray light rays bounce around and to seal the system unless you are in an optically black box (like the inside of a film camera). Second, as people have been talking about, you can put a ground glass at the film plane and use a macro c mount lens to focus on the image on the glass. Third, you can use a relay lens to focus and resize the image from the main optical system. I don't have a clue, other than a ray tracing program like Oslo, how to select the optics. This is the method they frequently use in high end image intensifiers. The second and third options will resize the image, the first is very simple. You might be able to take the c mount off the 12mm lens I sent you (a CCTV lens, not too valuable after your preliminary testing is done) and find a way to mount that a little in front of the film plane so that the camera sensor is in the right spot. c mount is about 17.5mm so that is the approximate distance from the camera shoulder to the sensor plane. That means the shoulder on the adapter you are making from the lens should be that far in front of the film plane. I hope. Steve __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

June 6th, 2004, 07:13 AM	#101
Valeriu Campan Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 223	Canon EOS camera 8 Mp shoots @ 15fps! Maybe just off topic. Just saw this post on Rob Galbraith site http://www.robgalbraith.com/ubbthrea...b=5&o=&fpart=1 regarding the Canon EOS MKII camera with a 8 Megapixel sensor: 15 fps ... hmmm!!!! if it is believable, consider that this camera doesn't have RAID drives, is designed only for stills work and writes data on CF cards. There is hope that with the proper hardware a HD dream camera is not too far away.

June 4th, 2004, 01:26 PM	#91
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	go download a version that is a bit less complex at www.norpix.com

June 4th, 2004, 08:36 PM	#93
Valeriu Campan Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 223	<<<-- Originally posted by Dennis Jakobsen : Yes I just recieved a pricelist, and the IPX2M30HC is 4,600$... However that model could only be decreased in its horizontal resolution, and so the framerate would remain the same. But they recommended the IPX2M30C, since this version could. But I guess they are too expensive... -->>> It's good to see a larger sensor. If used with lenses mounted direct would give a FOV of super16. I don't like the S/N which is less than 60. It would be nice to be at around 65.

June 4th, 2004, 10:55 PM	#94
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : I must clear this up, what I was talking about was NOT a 35mm adaptor but a c-mount lens that would focus macro about30-40mm away from the front on a groundglass from a 35mm rearprojection adaptor so that we can keep the FOV and the DOF of the 35mm lens.... -->>> Sorry, I was thinking of getting rid of the need for the lense in the c-mount first place (makes it shorter, and probably opticall truer), then you can swap between straight 35 mm and with relay and straight C-mount anytime you like.

June 5th, 2004, 04:30 AM	#95
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Hey guys, What type of color separation does the IPX2M30HC have? 4:2:2? What type of interface does it have. Described it as "DIGITAL"? That's vague to me. Does the $4600 include capture software so you can hook it directly up to a pc or mac? I'm not sure what the difference of 60 Mhz signal to noise ratio as compared to 65 means? Will someone explain this? What's the output rate to the capturing computer in Mbps? Also, guys, this is a 16:9 chip (incredibly convenient) and fits directly with C-mount. Does someone make a C-Mount to 35mm slr adapter? Obin, you said this one can't do different frame rates? Specs said it could (my guess at least 720p at 40 fps). That's not too bad. It this thing is $4600 total for the camera plus bug-free software to work it, isn't this pretty much the camera we've been looking for, or are you guys shunning it becasue that's too expensive for you? Give me some input guys. Thanks. By the way . . . Jacques said "I am praying that after reading all the great suggestions for the XL2 that this board provided, that Canon knocks our socks off 7/1/04!" Is there some scheduled announcement or product release from Canon on that date regarding the XL-2 HD camera that I haven't heard about yet? Hey Wayne, I know this is off subject, but it seems all the threads over at camcorderinfo.com are non-accessable. Man, I wrote you and Jim Messerschmidt some post that took damn near an hour and now it's wiped. You getting the same problem?

June 5th, 2004, 07:19 AM	#96
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	With every 6db you're gaining a stop of dynamic range. Signal-to-Noise ratio basically deals with the amount of signal versus the amount of noise in the image. Every 6db you have basically doubled the percived intensity of the signal (you're one-stop brighter). So at 58db, you're only getting around 9-10 stops of usable dynamic range, although the last 6db at the bottom is typically all noise, so it's more like 8-9stops. Actually most HD cameras only have a S/N ratio of 54db (which gives them a maximum of around 8-8/12 stops), so 60db isn't bad, although digital still cameras can be up to 72db, which gives you a nice clean 11-12 stops of dynamic range, which is getting very close to film.

June 5th, 2004, 02:18 PM	#97
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	anyone want to jump in a help me find a "relay" lens as you call it for the agus35 adaptor I made for the dvx100? it's got to fit my c-mount 1300 camera and attach to the agus35 with a 72mm thread mount.....or i can make a new mount at whatever mm we need for the c mount lens

June 5th, 2004, 07:18 PM	#99
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	yes I fully understand(ihope) what you are saying. I like the 2nd idea because you get the FOV from your 35mm lens but most important you get the depth of field - this is one of the fundamental differences of film and video and overcoming this will be a very important step in the production of the lowcost HD camera that customers would want to shoot feature films on - the ability to pull your subject from the background is something almost every cinematographer wants in his/her camera. This 1/2inch chip is not even close maybe a 2/3 or 1 inch would do the trick - I know this because I have a broadcast 3ccd camera that has 1/2inch chips and the DOF is not even close to film or super 16mm so a relay/macro lens shooting groundglass and a 35mm on the front would be a stopgap but we need 35mm sized chips EVEN if they are low(1280x720) resolution that is ok

June 6th, 2004, 02:14 AM	#100
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Gotchya Jason, 6 db for each stop, thanks.

June 6th, 2004, 01:00 PM	#102
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	found what may be a great screen for this system once some people get the itX computer made, it's 1024x768 7inches and is touchscreen! I bet that would work well for a monitor/capture pc controller for this project! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3698&item=4134438908&rd=1

June 8th, 2004, 12:26 AM	#103
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	<<<-- Originally posted by Jason Rodriguez : With every 6db you're gaining a stop of dynamic range. Signal-to-Noise ratio basically deals with the amount of signal versus the amount of noise in the image. Every 6db you have basically doubled the percived intensity of the signal (you're one-stop brighter). So at 58db, you're only getting around 9-10 stops of usable dynamic range, although the last 6db at the bottom is typically all noise, so it's more like 8-9stops. Actually most HD cameras only have a S/N ratio of 54db (which gives them a maximum of around 8-8/12 stops), so 60db isn't bad, although digital still cameras can be up to 72db, which gives you a nice clean 11-12 stops of dynamic range, which is getting very close to film. -->>> I forget how it goes but doesn't it go something like this: 8-bit (each bit doubles value) = 48db + 6db for totally clear image. But for clear low light images you would add the db of the desired gainup, say 24db, that would be 78db dersired s/n, or for 10 bits, 90db. So the 54db is only for clear images in good light. Some interesting news: http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/sho...5642#post75642 Quote:--- Concept HD Guys, Go to the HD Forum of Cinematography.com. You will find many arguments there by professional DP's against the use of industrial HD cameras in HD productions. I would urge everyone to wait for our camera announcements. Our cameras will not have these shortcomings. ---- Haven't had time to read the threads mentioned (haven't even read this thread yet) but well and truely worth looking at. I still say that any machine vision company should be able to pull through the goods, if they want.

June 8th, 2004, 11:37 AM	#104
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	pics: dv3productions.com/test_images/test1.jpg dv3productions.com/test_images/test2.jpg dv3productions.com/test_images/test3.jpg dv3productions.com/test_images/test4.jpg dv3productions.com/test_images/test5.jpg dv3productions.com/test_images/test6.jpg test 4 is a raw/color worked split in half file the rest have been treated from the RAW format frames may be a bit blurry because i don't have the software workin right test5 and test6 are the same location same lighting changed the "look" in photoshop

June 8th, 2004, 11:43 AM	#105
Rob Scott Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, TN (USA) Posts: 358	Obin ... very nice! Is that with your GG adapter or without? I assume you got your software working. Can you e-mail or post a raw file (i.e., pre-Bayer) so I can take a look at it ?