4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · July 16th, 2004, 04:11 AM

Ok, as you like.I'm not trying to start a war or say your filter doesn't work :).
If you think it is not suitable for this material, it's O.K. for me.
I have a couple of problems now that won't let me do anything with the machine I'm using.
Could you give me .Tiff frame from a Bayer camera to work with?

Edit:
Oh well, lastly I'm not sure wich image format it opens, so I guess it should open tiff, as some cameras output this format.
Anyway don't worry about what I say, cause I have no interest at this moment about modifying it to accept anything.

Jason Rodriguez · July 16th, 2004, 05:35 AM

DCRAW only works with RAW camera files. Those Canon "TIFF" files, are in fact raw files, not true TIFF files, the extension is quite misleading there.

My main gripe with DCRAW is the zippering effect on the edges (look at the watch-you have to mouse over the image to see the DCRAW output), and the color moiré that also occurs on highlights, etc. If you don't believe me about the results of DCRAW, just go over to www.dpreview.com, and do a search on their forums about DCRAW, and you'll see the same complaints (mainly color moiré is the biggie).

If you'll notice on the Canon output, there are no zippered edges, and yes, while the DCRAW dynamic range is better, the actual interpolation I don't believe is better than what Canon provides in their SDK.

BTW, here's an idea. Can you guys reverse engineer from the DCRAW software a canon .CRW file, so that with Rob's program, you can then use the Canon tools to interpolate the files (because it thinks it's from a Canon camera)?

Obin Olson · July 16th, 2004, 07:02 AM

I will be testing that plugin today and have a report later on ;)

I hope that it's good enough to use for the filmout we are going to do with this footage soon ;)

Anhar Miah · July 16th, 2004, 08:27 AM

First of all, i'm sorry if anyone else has raised this already, so please forgive me if this has been covered already,

BUT......

On the problem of storage, i was thinking why not use solid state?

Whatya guys thinks?

here is a quick google brought up:

E- Disk(R) SAN 48 FLASH SSD

Up to 2.5 million IOPS
Up to 16GB/sec Sustained Read Rate
Up to 9GB/sec Sustained Write Rate
48U cabinet: 295GB - 16.5TB
96 x 2Gbit (200MB/s) host ports
Remote/Local Software Management

And other such products

http://www.bitmicro.com/products_enterprise_net_ssd.php

please reply soon, i would like your take on this

Rob Scott · July 16th, 2004, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Anhar Miah wrote:
On the problem of storage, i was thinking why not use solid state?

It certainly looks good, the main issue would be cost.

Anhar Miah · July 16th, 2004, 09:34 AM

i'm hoping more searching may bring up cheaper/ budget options.

Like i said earlier that was a quick search, i'll look later, if anyone else knows of any cheap options please tell us about it!!

Questions:

(a)What compression schemes are you guys considering?
(b)Would the CPU be fast enough to do compression in real-time before writing to disk, if so generally how fast a CPU would be appropiate (3.0 GHz?)

thanks,

(again sorry if these have been asked before)

David Newman · July 16th, 2004, 09:52 AM

Yes a 3GHz P4 is fast enough. We have been experimented with direct 10/12bit bayer compression and achieved compression frame rate of around 60fps using 1280x720 sources using a single P4 with a fast memory bus (standard these days.) For 1920x1080 we expect the encoding rate to be around 30fps. These figures were gathered from a variant of the CineForm HD (CFHD) codec used within Aspect HD and Prospect HD. We are investigating the marketability of this type product.

Obin Olson · July 16th, 2004, 10:42 AM

Ben did a good job. Check the images out:

http://www.dv3productions.com/test_i...en_test_on.jpg
http://www.dv3productions.com/test_i...n_test_off.jpg

Ben Syverson · July 16th, 2004, 01:11 PM

Juan -- no worries, I was just trying to understand what you were saying.

Jason: I looked at the dcraw source, and it looks like they've documented the bayer patterns and file formats of each camera's RAW file pretty clearly. It should be a trivial effort to generate CRW's from any image -- bayer mosaic or not. I guess my question is: why? Is the Canon interpolation amazing enough to go through the effort?

Obin: thanks man! If you guys want to source to integrate into your app, let me know (it's pretty basic).

- ben

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · July 16th, 2004, 01:24 PM

Guys, I need a quick answer :D

What output format does the capture software output?
Can I get an AVI with the RAW video inside???
I'm trying to make a proof of concept codec with some guy, and we need to know what we are working with.

What do you think about using MXF as container?

Obin Olson · July 16th, 2004, 02:21 PM

our capture software will support output of avi tiff jpeg maybe cineon - we will use any of the compressors for avi it would be nice to have 10bit native if someone has any ideas?

Ben Syverson · July 16th, 2004, 02:32 PM

I don't know about AVI, but in Quicktime, there are a few options:
Blackmagic 10-bit
Microcosm from Digital Anarchy
None16 from Digital Anarchy

Juan, why do you need the files in AVI format if you're designing a new codec?

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · July 16th, 2004, 03:22 PM

Obin,

Well that's the idea ;)

Ben,
Because it is a VFW codec.Just that :D
AVI is still the easiest container to work with under Windows environment , although it has a little overhead.
Codecs and containers are different things.
After some more testings, we get realtime 4.5:1 lossless compression for Green channel for a 1920x1080 Bayer.
Nice, isn't it?

The idea is: the same codec would support RAW Bayer Lossles and Near-Lossles (A.K.A. not so lossy), RGB and YUV 4:4:4 formats.
This way everybody could go NLE with the same codec the camera uses.
Ah, it is only meant for 1920x1080.

David Newman · July 16th, 2004, 03:25 PM

The problem with VfW codec is they can only export 8bit data in RGB, no YUV support and no deeper color supported. You should consider doing a DirectShow codec as it allows you to define custom pixel formats. I used the FOURCC codes BYR1 and BYR2. BYR1 supports 8bit packed raw bayer data from DirectShow and BYR2 is 16bit packed (with 12bit precision). If you use these FOURCC codes our codecs would be interchangable.

Obin Olson · July 16th, 2004, 03:47 PM

David, we want to support your codec for capture..can you provide anything?

Juan I see NO solution for editing 10bit unless David and CineForm jump in soon...I think if we could capture in 10bit compressed and then transcode over at 8bit when the NLE does it's renders etc that would be fine. This way we can open the 10bit compressed files in after effects and combustion for color work save 8bit and edit.

The biggest problem at the moment is if we want 10bit we must save 16bit tiff files and they are HUGE..no need for this at all..we need a codec/format that is a 10bit lossless compressed MASTER. Later in the editing pipeline it can be 8bit...

July 16th, 2004, 08:27 AM	#784
Anhar Miah Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: United Kindom, England Posts: 290	COOL!! JUST THOUGHT OF SOMETHING First of all, i'm sorry if anyone else has raised this already, so please forgive me if this has been covered already, BUT...... On the problem of storage, i was thinking why not use solid state? Whatya guys thinks? here is a quick google brought up: E- Disk(R) SAN 48 FLASH SSD Up to 2.5 million IOPS Up to 16GB/sec Sustained Read Rate Up to 9GB/sec Sustained Write Rate 48U cabinet: 295GB - 16.5TB 96 x 2Gbit (200MB/s) host ports Remote/Local Software Management And other such products http://www.bitmicro.com/products_enterprise_net_ssd.php please reply soon, i would like your take on this

July 16th, 2004, 09:52 AM	#787
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Yes a 3GHz P4 is fast enough. We have been experimented with direct 10/12bit bayer compression and achieved compression frame rate of around 60fps using 1280x720 sources using a single P4 with a fast memory bus (standard these days.) For 1920x1080 we expect the encoding rate to be around 30fps. These figures were gathered from a variant of the CineForm HD (CFHD) codec used within Aspect HD and Prospect HD. We are investigating the marketability of this type product. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

July 16th, 2004, 03:25 PM	#794
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	The problem with VfW codec is they can only export 8bit data in RGB, no YUV support and no deeper color supported. You should consider doing a DirectShow codec as it allows you to define custom pixel formats. I used the FOURCC codes BYR1 and BYR2. BYR1 supports 8bit packed raw bayer data from DirectShow and BYR2 is 16bit packed (with 12bit precision). If you use these FOURCC codes our codecs would be interchangable. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

July 16th, 2004, 04:11 AM	#781
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	Ok, as you like.I'm not trying to start a war or say your filter doesn't work :). If you think it is not suitable for this material, it's O.K. for me. I have a couple of problems now that won't let me do anything with the machine I'm using. Could you give me .Tiff frame from a Bayer camera to work with? Edit: Oh well, lastly I'm not sure wich image format it opens, so I guess it should open tiff, as some cameras output this format. Anyway don't worry about what I say, cause I have no interest at this moment about modifying it to accept anything.

July 16th, 2004, 05:35 AM	#782
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	DCRAW only works with RAW camera files. Those Canon "TIFF" files, are in fact raw files, not true TIFF files, the extension is quite misleading there. My main gripe with DCRAW is the zippering effect on the edges (look at the watch-you have to mouse over the image to see the DCRAW output), and the color moiré that also occurs on highlights, etc. If you don't believe me about the results of DCRAW, just go over to www.dpreview.com, and do a search on their forums about DCRAW, and you'll see the same complaints (mainly color moiré is the biggie). If you'll notice on the Canon output, there are no zippered edges, and yes, while the DCRAW dynamic range is better, the actual interpolation I don't believe is better than what Canon provides in their SDK. BTW, here's an idea. Can you guys reverse engineer from the DCRAW software a canon .CRW file, so that with Rob's program, you can then use the Canon tools to interpolate the files (because it thinks it's from a Canon camera)?

July 16th, 2004, 07:02 AM	#783
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	I will be testing that plugin today and have a report later on ;) I hope that it's good enough to use for the filmout we are going to do with this footage soon ;)

July 16th, 2004, 09:34 AM	#786
Anhar Miah Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: United Kindom, England Posts: 290	i'm hoping more searching may bring up cheaper/ budget options. Like i said earlier that was a quick search, i'll look later, if anyone else knows of any cheap options please tell us about it!! Questions: (a)What compression schemes are you guys considering? (b)Would the CPU be fast enough to do compression in real-time before writing to disk, if so generally how fast a CPU would be appropiate (3.0 GHz?) thanks, (again sorry if these have been asked before)

July 16th, 2004, 10:42 AM	#788
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Ben did a good job. Check the images out: http://www.dv3productions.com/test_i...en_test_on.jpg http://www.dv3productions.com/test_i...n_test_off.jpg

July 16th, 2004, 01:11 PM	#789
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	Juan -- no worries, I was just trying to understand what you were saying. Jason: I looked at the dcraw source, and it looks like they've documented the bayer patterns and file formats of each camera's RAW file pretty clearly. It should be a trivial effort to generate CRW's from any image -- bayer mosaic or not. I guess my question is: why? Is the Canon interpolation amazing enough to go through the effort? Obin: thanks man! If you guys want to source to integrate into your app, let me know (it's pretty basic). - ben

July 16th, 2004, 01:24 PM	#790
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	Guys, I need a quick answer :D What output format does the capture software output? Can I get an AVI with the RAW video inside??? I'm trying to make a proof of concept codec with some guy, and we need to know what we are working with. What do you think about using MXF as container?

July 16th, 2004, 02:21 PM	#791
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	our capture software will support output of avi tiff jpeg maybe cineon - we will use any of the compressors for avi it would be nice to have 10bit native if someone has any ideas?

July 16th, 2004, 02:32 PM	#792
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	I don't know about AVI, but in Quicktime, there are a few options: Blackmagic 10-bit Microcosm from Digital Anarchy None16 from Digital Anarchy Juan, why do you need the files in AVI format if you're designing a new codec?

July 16th, 2004, 03:22 PM	#793
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	Obin, Well that's the idea ;) Ben, Because it is a VFW codec.Just that :D AVI is still the easiest container to work with under Windows environment , although it has a little overhead. Codecs and containers are different things. After some more testings, we get realtime 4.5:1 lossless compression for Green channel for a 1920x1080 Bayer. Nice, isn't it? The idea is: the same codec would support RAW Bayer Lossles and Near-Lossles (A.K.A. not so lossy), RGB and YUV 4:4:4 formats. This way everybody could go NLE with the same codec the camera uses. Ah, it is only meant for 1920x1080.

July 16th, 2004, 03:47 PM	#795
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	David, we want to support your codec for capture..can you provide anything? Juan I see NO solution for editing 10bit unless David and CineForm jump in soon...I think if we could capture in 10bit compressed and then transcode over at 8bit when the NLE does it's renders etc that would be fine. This way we can open the 10bit compressed files in after effects and combustion for color work save 8bit and edit. The biggest problem at the moment is if we want 10bit we must save 16bit tiff files and they are HUGE..no need for this at all..we need a codec/format that is a 10bit lossless compressed MASTER. Later in the editing pipeline it can be 8bit...