4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Ben Syverson · July 14th, 2004, 10:41 PM

Jason, what are your notes on my algorithm? The green channel has a little zippering left over, but if you get rid of it completely, you lose a lot of information. At 100%, it's almost impossible to see the zippering, and I think once it was projected or on a screen, you wouldn't be able to see it at all...

Les Dit · July 14th, 2004, 11:21 PM

Ben
Be a little careful about the sample images, as they were probably taken at the exposure that would result in the best still, rather that 1/48 sec, or whatever you want to shoot video with.
Ask them what shutter speed they used. Maybe it was 1/200 sec to minimize noise?
-Les

Ben Syverson · July 14th, 2004, 11:32 PM

I think you mean 1/2 second. (?) That's impossible -- the maximum exposure time is 36.44ms. I'm sure they had the subjects well-lit, but so will I. :)

Basically, I need a camera that will operate over USB2 or Firewire. This is it. And it's extremely inexpensive. I'll give it a shot and keep people updated on how it fares. It costs less than half of what my GL1 did, so even if it's really noisy, it'll be an interesting experiment. It's not like I'm going to be handing this thing to Bill Pope, ASC to shoot my movies. :) I do have some really sweet C-mount B&H - Angenieux primes, though, left over from 16mm days -- the 25mm is f0.95! Hottt.

My thinking is that if I window the camera readout to 1280x720 and drop the frame rate to 24fps, I may be able to reduce the datarate enough to record directly to a laptop with one of those 7200rpm 60gb drives. We shall see. Even at full res and full frame rate, it's only 38 megabytes a second (it's 8 bit).

I think it'll be interesting to have some variety on this forum -- both the SI-1300 and the SMX150...

Oh, I should mention for the sake of comparison, that 36.44 milliseconds (0.03644) is rather close to 1/48 of a second, which is 20.83 milliseconds (0.0208333...).

We shall see how adjustable the exposure time is.

Matthew Miller · July 15th, 2004, 02:18 AM

Obin,
Good luck in developing that software. Wicked good stuff man. Obviously I'd have to first own a sensor and frame grabber to even be considered for beta testing. I'm gonna have to come to a decision and get one soon. Then I can freaking contribute.

by the way, the "zippering" that ben pointed out in those images of the thumb pins is exactly what I was trying to explain about the image from your camera once it was projected on a big screen. Of course, it seems that this will not be a problem anymore. You need to get on recompressing us a video with no image doubling and no zippering! Heeyah! (Whip cracks!)

Ben,
Awesome that you're biting the bullet and getting that sensor. Best of luck to you as well. It would really be something if you could get a Smooth 24fps over USB2. Even if you end up stepping down to a resolution just below 1280x720 to get solid capture performance, it may prove well worth it.
If any of those nice lenses you have are anamorphic, you could always consider doing a 960x720 window from the SMX-150C and stretching it back out to 1280x720 in post. Or shoot some cinemascope 1280x480 stuff!

I have adobe after effects and a PC, and since I definitely plan to get one of these cameras, it would be great if you could compile that filter for those of us poor souls who can't 'think different'.

Ben Syverson · July 15th, 2004, 02:47 AM

Matthew, I'm definitely going to try some anamorphic stuff! I've got a 16:9 adapter and a 2.35 adapter that I hope to test out in 1280x1024 mode. It'll be very interesting to see how that comes out.

The only thing I'm wrestling with now is finding a laptop that can handle the data. I just ordered the 7200rpm Hitachi Travelstar 7K60 drive from Memorylabs.net for pretty cheap ($189). Now I have to figure out what laptop to put it into. :)

One idea I had was to put the Hitachi in a USB2 enclosure, and bring it and the camera (and the software) along with me to a computer store. There I could actually test out various models. However, this doesn't test the most crucial thing I need to know: the machine's real-world ATA throughput. Once the drive is inside, the performance will probably be very different than running off the USB2. I've seen benchmarks for the Hitachi clock in at around 31 MB/sec sustained, so hopefully it will be able to handle ~21 MB/sec. (1280 * 720 * 24 / 1024 / 1024 = 21.09 MB/sec)

Anybody have any ideas or suggestions on high-performance laptops that weigh 5 pounds or less? I've looked at Dell's Inspirion 600m -- the specs look good, but as a die-hard Mac user, I don't know if I can bring myself to buy something so ugly. I've also looked at the Sony V505 series, but they're a little pricey.

I guess I should just bite the bullet -- even at $1700 for a laptop, I'm still looking at around $3000 for a portable uncompressed HD rig. Not bad if it works! :)

You know, another idea is to not sweat the hard drive throughput so much. If you had 1GB of RAM free, shooting at 21MB/second, you could record to RAM for about 48 seconds. It wouldn't be the most convenient thing in the world, but in all honesty, most of my shots don't last longer than 48 seconds...

Obin Olson · July 15th, 2004, 07:59 AM

Ok we need a good bayer filter..anyone have an a link to somthing good?

Gang, I spoke with a film-out house in NYC, they are saying that most of the work they do is 1080p filmout!! They could do 4k but MOST stuff is 1080p! so that means with the new Rockwell chip at a NATIVE 1080p we can shoot right to film no problem! this is kIckIN it! they also told me the 1280stuff will be very clear and work GREAT for a big theater projection. Filmout only needs 8bit ;) just a FYI for you guys!

Richard Mellor · July 15th, 2004, 08:49 AM

Hi everyone this movie was shot @ 1080p
from a famous director .

It will be out august 6th.

http://www.collateral-themovie.com/

Obin Olson · July 15th, 2004, 11:03 AM

what camera?

- wait - SHOT? or you mean filmout @ 1080p

Ben Syverson · July 15th, 2004, 11:12 AM

Obin, did you check out my results?

Rai Orz · July 15th, 2004, 11:24 AM

Wayne,
about creating camacases, lets email together next time. At the moment i need a working inside.

Joshua Starnes · July 15th, 2004, 12:05 PM

- wait - SHOT? or you mean filmout @ 1080p

It was shot at 1080p using a Sony F950 and recorded to HDCAM.

I'm not sure what the filmout was but I have heard they did all the color correction at 2K, it's possible they filmed out at 2K. Star Wars filmed out at 2K, so do the Pixar movies (in fact, Pixar claims to have the ability to film out at 4K, but says they don't bother because there is absolutely nothing to be gained by doing it).

Ben Syverson · July 15th, 2004, 12:08 PM

By the time you get to a theatrical release print, which is many generations removed from the negative, no one in the world will be able to sit in a cineplex and tell the difference between 2k and 4k...

Richard Mellor · July 15th, 2004, 12:42 PM

the movie was shot with a viper 3 chip 1080p filmstream @12bit
2.37 aspect ratio
It was outputted to 35mm film . I can't wait to see this on the big screen.

Steve Nordhauser · July 15th, 2004, 12:57 PM

Ben:
I don't like to talk about competitor's products so I will talk about a very similar product that we sell. This would be an IBIS-5 based USB 2.0 camera - the SI-1280F-RGB-USB. First, research the IBIS-5 info on this site. Also, be sure you know what bit depth you are working with - 8, 10 or 12. I think the internal A/D might be 10 but it isn't very good - we use an external 12 bit for less smearing. We consider the IBIS-5 (even the new A sensor) to be unacceptable for anything other than high speed and machine vision. Also, although we run our USB cameras at 40-48MHz under certain conditions, it is fairly CPU loading sensitive so if you do much on the PC you can drop frames. Some OEMs go this fast but don't worry about some corrupted frames. Also, the IBIS-5 is not very sensitive - OK, it is an insensitive lout. That is because so much of the pixel is used for the global shutter transistors. There is also a fair amount of global shutter leakage (1.5%) when the electronic shutter is off - this can lead to smearing of bright objects.

The sensor also has quite a bit of single pixel and column offset. You can correct this by doing a dark field correction (also called offset correction) and some other post processing but this eats up your dynamic range. I you start with 256 levels and have to subtract a value of 60 to reach black, you have less than levels to the pixel.

Maybe Sumix has done something magical here, but I would suggest an evaluation period.

Obin Olson · July 15th, 2004, 12:59 PM

Ben I want to try you filter ASAP in after effects on our footage
can you write it for PC AfterEffects?

July 15th, 2004, 02:18 AM	#754
Matthew Miller New Boot Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 20	Obin, Good luck in developing that software. Wicked good stuff man. Obviously I'd have to first own a sensor and frame grabber to even be considered for beta testing. I'm gonna have to come to a decision and get one soon. Then I can freaking contribute. by the way, the "zippering" that ben pointed out in those images of the thumb pins is exactly what I was trying to explain about the image from your camera once it was projected on a big screen. Of course, it seems that this will not be a problem anymore. You need to get on recompressing us a video with no image doubling and no zippering! Heeyah! (Whip cracks!) Ben, Awesome that you're biting the bullet and getting that sensor. Best of luck to you as well. It would really be something if you could get a Smooth 24fps over USB2. Even if you end up stepping down to a resolution just below 1280x720 to get solid capture performance, it may prove well worth it. If any of those nice lenses you have are anamorphic, you could always consider doing a 960x720 window from the SMX-150C and stretching it back out to 1280x720 in post. Or shoot some cinemascope 1280x480 stuff! I have adobe after effects and a PC, and since I definitely plan to get one of these cameras, it would be great if you could compile that filter for those of us poor souls who can't 'think different'. __________________ This is where my optional signature could have been.

July 15th, 2004, 08:49 AM	#757
Richard Mellor Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: cambridge ma Posts: 247	1080p Hi everyone this movie was shot @ 1080p from a famous director . It will be out august 6th. http://www.collateral-themovie.com/

July 15th, 2004, 11:12 AM	#759
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	Ok we need a good bayer filter..anyone have an a link to somthing good? Obin, did you check out my results?

July 15th, 2004, 12:42 PM	#763
Richard Mellor Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: cambridge ma Posts: 247	1080p the movie was shot with a viper 3 chip 1080p filmstream @12bit 2.37 aspect ratio It was outputted to 35mm film . I can't wait to see this on the big screen.

July 15th, 2004, 12:57 PM	#764
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	Ben: I don't like to talk about competitor's products so I will talk about a very similar product that we sell. This would be an IBIS-5 based USB 2.0 camera - the SI-1280F-RGB-USB. First, research the IBIS-5 info on this site. Also, be sure you know what bit depth you are working with - 8, 10 or 12. I think the internal A/D might be 10 but it isn't very good - we use an external 12 bit for less smearing. We consider the IBIS-5 (even the new A sensor) to be unacceptable for anything other than high speed and machine vision. Also, although we run our USB cameras at 40-48MHz under certain conditions, it is fairly CPU loading sensitive so if you do much on the PC you can drop frames. Some OEMs go this fast but don't worry about some corrupted frames. Also, the IBIS-5 is not very sensitive - OK, it is an insensitive lout. That is because so much of the pixel is used for the global shutter transistors. There is also a fair amount of global shutter leakage (1.5%) when the electronic shutter is off - this can lead to smearing of bright objects. The sensor also has quite a bit of single pixel and column offset. You can correct this by doing a dark field correction (also called offset correction) and some other post processing but this eats up your dynamic range. I you start with 256 levels and have to subtract a value of 60 to reach black, you have less than levels to the pixel. Maybe Sumix has done something magical here, but I would suggest an evaluation period. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

July 14th, 2004, 10:41 PM	#751
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	Jason, what are your notes on my algorithm? The green channel has a little zippering left over, but if you get rid of it completely, you lose a lot of information. At 100%, it's almost impossible to see the zippering, and I think once it was projected or on a screen, you wouldn't be able to see it at all...

July 14th, 2004, 11:21 PM	#752
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	Ben Be a little careful about the sample images, as they were probably taken at the exposure that would result in the best still, rather that 1/48 sec, or whatever you want to shoot video with. Ask them what shutter speed they used. Maybe it was 1/200 sec to minimize noise? -Les

July 14th, 2004, 11:32 PM	#753
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	I think you mean 1/2 second. (?) That's impossible -- the maximum exposure time is 36.44ms. I'm sure they had the subjects well-lit, but so will I. :) Basically, I need a camera that will operate over USB2 or Firewire. This is it. And it's extremely inexpensive. I'll give it a shot and keep people updated on how it fares. It costs less than half of what my GL1 did, so even if it's really noisy, it'll be an interesting experiment. It's not like I'm going to be handing this thing to Bill Pope, ASC to shoot my movies. :) I do have some really sweet C-mount B&H - Angenieux primes, though, left over from 16mm days -- the 25mm is f0.95! Hottt. My thinking is that if I window the camera readout to 1280x720 and drop the frame rate to 24fps, I may be able to reduce the datarate enough to record directly to a laptop with one of those 7200rpm 60gb drives. We shall see. Even at full res and full frame rate, it's only 38 megabytes a second (it's 8 bit). I think it'll be interesting to have some variety on this forum -- both the SI-1300 and the SMX150... Oh, I should mention for the sake of comparison, that 36.44 milliseconds (0.03644) is rather close to 1/48 of a second, which is 20.83 milliseconds (0.0208333...). We shall see how adjustable the exposure time is.

July 15th, 2004, 02:47 AM	#755
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	Matthew, I'm definitely going to try some anamorphic stuff! I've got a 16:9 adapter and a 2.35 adapter that I hope to test out in 1280x1024 mode. It'll be very interesting to see how that comes out. The only thing I'm wrestling with now is finding a laptop that can handle the data. I just ordered the 7200rpm Hitachi Travelstar 7K60 drive from Memorylabs.net for pretty cheap ($189). Now I have to figure out what laptop to put it into. :) One idea I had was to put the Hitachi in a USB2 enclosure, and bring it and the camera (and the software) along with me to a computer store. There I could actually test out various models. However, this doesn't test the most crucial thing I need to know: the machine's real-world ATA throughput. Once the drive is inside, the performance will probably be very different than running off the USB2. I've seen benchmarks for the Hitachi clock in at around 31 MB/sec sustained, so hopefully it will be able to handle ~21 MB/sec. (1280 * 720 * 24 / 1024 / 1024 = 21.09 MB/sec) Anybody have any ideas or suggestions on high-performance laptops that weigh 5 pounds or less? I've looked at Dell's Inspirion 600m -- the specs look good, but as a die-hard Mac user, I don't know if I can bring myself to buy something so ugly. I've also looked at the Sony V505 series, but they're a little pricey. I guess I should just bite the bullet -- even at $1700 for a laptop, I'm still looking at around $3000 for a portable uncompressed HD rig. Not bad if it works! :) You know, another idea is to not sweat the hard drive throughput so much. If you had 1GB of RAM free, shooting at 21MB/second, you could record to RAM for about 48 seconds. It wouldn't be the most convenient thing in the world, but in all honesty, most of my shots don't last longer than 48 seconds...

July 15th, 2004, 07:59 AM	#756
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Ok we need a good bayer filter..anyone have an a link to somthing good? Gang, I spoke with a film-out house in NYC, they are saying that most of the work they do is 1080p filmout!! They could do 4k but MOST stuff is 1080p! so that means with the new Rockwell chip at a NATIVE 1080p we can shoot right to film no problem! this is kIckIN it! they also told me the 1280stuff will be very clear and work GREAT for a big theater projection. Filmout only needs 8bit ;) just a FYI for you guys!

July 15th, 2004, 11:03 AM	#758
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	what camera? - wait - SHOT? or you mean filmout @ 1080p

July 15th, 2004, 11:24 AM	#760
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	Wayne, about creating camacases, lets email together next time. At the moment i need a working inside.

July 15th, 2004, 12:05 PM	#761
Joshua Starnes Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 356	- wait - SHOT? or you mean filmout @ 1080p It was shot at 1080p using a Sony F950 and recorded to HDCAM. I'm not sure what the filmout was but I have heard they did all the color correction at 2K, it's possible they filmed out at 2K. Star Wars filmed out at 2K, so do the Pixar movies (in fact, Pixar claims to have the ability to film out at 4K, but says they don't bother because there is absolutely nothing to be gained by doing it).

July 15th, 2004, 12:08 PM	#762
Ben Syverson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: chicago Posts: 434	By the time you get to a theatrical release print, which is many generations removed from the negative, no one in the world will be able to sit in a cineplex and tell the difference between 2k and 4k...

July 15th, 2004, 12:59 PM	#765
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Ben I want to try you filter ASAP in after effects on our footage can you write it for PC AfterEffects?