4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · July 14th, 2004, 09:37 AM

oh, sorry.
Anyone here to answer the questions I made Steve N.?
Or just to point me to an old answer ??

Wayne Morellini · July 14th, 2004, 09:44 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : Wayne:
Wayne on GigE:
I'm inclined to agree with you - pixel packing and maybe lossless compression at 2:1 (visually lossless at 6:1??) could really extend GigE and we will probably go that way in a bunch of months. This is mostly useful for remote head cameras (remote from the PC) although we could possibly migrate the FPGA into a simple digital interface or camera link. That might make the 3 chip Altasens make some 'sens'. -->>>

That's great, this year? My interests are plainly size, and doing away with a $500 frame grabber board, which would probably suit your customers to. There are also twin GBe on some main boards.

About compression, I agree. I would like to see both true lossless and visually lossless, and even 20 to 50:1 wavelet.

On a side piont: Rob, with something like the Toas system you can record to DVD and include a player/codec/decoder plugin that should work on windows, unix, and Mac.

Thanks

Wayne.

Steve Nordhauser · July 14th, 2004, 10:03 AM

@Juan:
Most mechanical shutters do not like to be run continuously - the exceptions being LCD and spinning wheels. They are certainly an option but for rolling shutter what you need to do is expose the sensor during vertical blanking time (all pixels integrating) and shut it off for readout. This is the same effect we have been discussing with running at double rate and an extended vertical blanking and tossing every other frame.

The SI-3300 is just coming out of engineering - we don't have much experimentation time on it yet. It has smaller pixels than the SI-1300 so the DOF is greater at 1280x720. At 1920x1080 it can run 24fps @10 bit. Not integrated with Streampix yet so recording is an issue.

Really fast disks tend to be hot and noisy and not as large. Other than removability, I would think a larger array of 250GB 7200RPM SATA drives would be best for recording. Just my thinking on this.

Wayne Morellini · July 14th, 2004, 10:17 AM

Interesting. Reducing the number of drives and increasing the speed would help, you still get multiple capacities too.

Thanks

Wayne.

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · July 14th, 2004, 10:18 AM

Thanks Steve :).
The problem I see is that I believe that 4 7200 rpm HDrives inside a thight enclosure would produce more heat and consume more power than one 10,000 rpm HDrive.Just common sense, so I'm surely wrong.

Rob Scott · July 14th, 2004, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn wrote:
The problem I see is that I believe that 4 7200 rpm HDrives inside a thight enclosure would produce more heat and consume more power than one 10,000 rpm HDrive.Just common sense, so I'm surely wrong.

It's possible. IIRC, Kinetta is using 12 drives in theirs! 40 GB iPod-style drives (=480 GB), which I think are <5,000 RPM.

BTW, no need to apologize about the questions earlier. I don't think we ever discussed drive speed in any detail.

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · July 14th, 2004, 10:40 AM

Don't know its pricing, and I don't know if it could be usefull.
It is a PCI card with two 1 GHZ G4 CPUs and consumes 40 watts.

http://www.eqware.net/Products.html

Also there is this German Cameralink grabber, which has an FPGA on board, don't know if it could be modified to compress the image on board.

http://www.silicon-software.com/microenable3.html#_mE3

And here is a cheap PCI FPGA card from Xilinx (from $399)

http://www.fpgajournal.com/news_stor...0040210_06.htm

Wayne Morellini · July 14th, 2004, 10:45 AM

I thought the drive speed and throughput was allready researched?

I have got some good news:

Proposed 500Mb's Wireless Lan (but ptobablynot this year)

Actually now I think of it, previously I posted about a next gen board that had simular wireless claims.

Bill gates forcasting the death of DVD

He doesn't mention that he (or MS) had investment in a 3D DVD replacement, and the many other alternatives.

New small formfactor Shuttle case with PCI-Express

Is there anybody here that can help Rai? From his post I think he is prepared to use simple capture software in a stationary case?

Rob. I looked at the vB code guide on that Camcorderinfo site, any chance we could get a more comrpehensive one like their's?

Steve Nordhauser · July 14th, 2004, 11:15 AM

That shuttle is nice. It can handle 3 internal HDs so you can do a two drive raid and leave the OS on another drive. Two slots (one pci-32 and one pci-X) so you put a capture card in one, maybe a TV out on the other for preview if you didn't want a computer LCD display for preview. Plenty of power there.

Wayne Morellini · July 14th, 2004, 11:16 AM

I'm going to throw a curve ball here.

Playstation 3, next year

About the patent Please note: they can add cells to compete with the recent powerpc xbox2 spec. Cell is a more complex clearspeed like device.

Wouldn't it be good to put the wind up Sony by making a PS3 version. The processing power on this beast means only an internal hardrive and external link to the camera would be needed? I would even reccmmend the Playstation Portable (quiet powerful) for 720p except it didn't have external interface or IDE.

But still this is mostly in jest.

Rai Orz · July 14th, 2004, 11:21 AM

Wayne, yes we need at the beginning simple capture software in a stationary case on the end of a 10m cable.

With those system, we will start shooting the movie. I think, if the cam works with a external PC and the pictures are that what i hope, it push the power on. And at the last shoot there is also a new HD CAM, because all we wont a HDD-in-the-Cam-Case-Solution. What a great Story...

So, let me know, what parts work.

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · July 14th, 2004, 11:32 AM

Steve,
That Shuttle machine doesn't have a PCI-X slot but a PCI-Express.They are different.
Are there PCI-Express Frame Grabbers?

Rai,
Just my opinion.
Ask Steve which is the right motherboard to work with using SI GigEthernet drivers, put on it the fastest P4 you find, add a good RAID controller card (the best are the ones with the Intel XOR engine, they cost around $700), put as many disks as you want and I think you are ready to go if the capture software works well.
Another hint: It would be the best to buy a motherboard with a PCI-X slot (64 bit, 66 MHZ)

Steve Nordhauser · July 14th, 2004, 11:41 AM

Juan:
whoops, too good to be true. Ignoring the fancy suffixes, there are PCI-32/33MHz, PCI-64-33MHz, PCI-64/66MHz and one PCI-64/133MHz frame grabbers.

Rai:
Obin is the only one who has pounded on a real work flow with our cameras. The SI-1300/Epix FG/Norpix SW is the only solution that is complete NOW. The SI-3300/Epix FG is done but would need Norpix integration for the same work flow. I don't know how practical that is - let's say Obin seemed less than thrilled.

Wayne Morellini · July 14th, 2004, 12:09 PM

Have read newer information on the PS3, it will be shown at E3 may next year, and release musch later, so there is no point. Pity the price piont of console hardware is lower than PC.

So false alarm.

Jacques Mersereau · July 14th, 2004, 12:09 PM

Have you guys seen this one?:
http://radio.weblogs.com/0105910/2004/07/10.html#a900

July 14th, 2004, 10:03 AM	#723
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	@Juan: Most mechanical shutters do not like to be run continuously - the exceptions being LCD and spinning wheels. They are certainly an option but for rolling shutter what you need to do is expose the sensor during vertical blanking time (all pixels integrating) and shut it off for readout. This is the same effect we have been discussing with running at double rate and an extended vertical blanking and tossing every other frame. The SI-3300 is just coming out of engineering - we don't have much experimentation time on it yet. It has smaller pixels than the SI-1300 so the DOF is greater at 1280x720. At 1920x1080 it can run 24fps @10 bit. Not integrated with Streampix yet so recording is an issue. Really fast disks tend to be hot and noisy and not as large. Other than removability, I would think a larger array of 250GB 7200RPM SATA drives would be best for recording. Just my thinking on this. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

July 14th, 2004, 11:15 AM	#729
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	That shuttle is nice. It can handle 3 internal HDs so you can do a two drive raid and leave the OS on another drive. Two slots (one pci-32 and one pci-X) so you put a capture card in one, maybe a TV out on the other for preview if you didn't want a computer LCD display for preview. Plenty of power there. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

July 14th, 2004, 11:41 AM	#733
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	Juan: whoops, too good to be true. Ignoring the fancy suffixes, there are PCI-32/33MHz, PCI-64-33MHz, PCI-64/66MHz and one PCI-64/133MHz frame grabbers. Rai: Obin is the only one who has pounded on a real work flow with our cameras. The SI-1300/Epix FG/Norpix SW is the only solution that is complete NOW. The SI-3300/Epix FG is done but would need Norpix integration for the same work flow. I don't know how practical that is - let's say Obin seemed less than thrilled. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

July 14th, 2004, 12:09 PM	#735
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	Have you guys seen this one?: http://radio.weblogs.com/0105910/2004/07/10.html#a900 __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

July 14th, 2004, 09:37 AM	#721
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	oh, sorry. Anyone here to answer the questions I made Steve N.? Or just to point me to an old answer ??

July 14th, 2004, 09:44 AM	#722
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Nordhauser : Wayne: Wayne on GigE: I'm inclined to agree with you - pixel packing and maybe lossless compression at 2:1 (visually lossless at 6:1??) could really extend GigE and we will probably go that way in a bunch of months. This is mostly useful for remote head cameras (remote from the PC) although we could possibly migrate the FPGA into a simple digital interface or camera link. That might make the 3 chip Altasens make some 'sens'. -->>> That's great, this year? My interests are plainly size, and doing away with a $500 frame grabber board, which would probably suit your customers to. There are also twin GBe on some main boards. About compression, I agree. I would like to see both true lossless and visually lossless, and even 20 to 50:1 wavelet. On a side piont: Rob, with something like the Toas system you can record to DVD and include a player/codec/decoder plugin that should work on windows, unix, and Mac. Thanks Wayne.

July 14th, 2004, 10:17 AM	#724
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Interesting. Reducing the number of drives and increasing the speed would help, you still get multiple capacities too. Thanks Wayne.

July 14th, 2004, 10:18 AM	#725
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	Thanks Steve :). The problem I see is that I believe that 4 7200 rpm HDrives inside a thight enclosure would produce more heat and consume more power than one 10,000 rpm HDrive.Just common sense, so I'm surely wrong.

July 14th, 2004, 10:40 AM	#727
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	Don't know its pricing, and I don't know if it could be usefull. It is a PCI card with two 1 GHZ G4 CPUs and consumes 40 watts. http://www.eqware.net/Products.html Also there is this German Cameralink grabber, which has an FPGA on board, don't know if it could be modified to compress the image on board. http://www.silicon-software.com/microenable3.html#_mE3 And here is a cheap PCI FPGA card from Xilinx (from $399) http://www.fpgajournal.com/news_stor...0040210_06.htm

July 14th, 2004, 10:45 AM	#728
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I thought the drive speed and throughput was allready researched? I have got some good news: Proposed 500Mb's Wireless Lan (but ptobablynot this year) Actually now I think of it, previously I posted about a next gen board that had simular wireless claims. Bill gates forcasting the death of DVD He doesn't mention that he (or MS) had investment in a 3D DVD replacement, and the many other alternatives. New small formfactor Shuttle case with PCI-Express Is there anybody here that can help Rai? From his post I think he is prepared to use simple capture software in a stationary case? Rob. I looked at the vB code guide on that Camcorderinfo site, any chance we could get a more comrpehensive one like their's?

July 14th, 2004, 11:16 AM	#730
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	I'm going to throw a curve ball here. Playstation 3, next year About the patent Please note: they can add cells to compete with the recent powerpc xbox2 spec. Cell is a more complex clearspeed like device. Wouldn't it be good to put the wind up Sony by making a PS3 version. The processing power on this beast means only an internal hardrive and external link to the camera would be needed? I would even reccmmend the Playstation Portable (quiet powerful) for 720p except it didn't have external interface or IDE. But still this is mostly in jest.

July 14th, 2004, 11:21 AM	#731
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	Wayne, yes we need at the beginning simple capture software in a stationary case on the end of a 10m cable. With those system, we will start shooting the movie. I think, if the cam works with a external PC and the pictures are that what i hope, it push the power on. And at the last shoot there is also a new HD CAM, because all we wont a HDD-in-the-Cam-Case-Solution. What a great Story... So, let me know, what parts work.

July 14th, 2004, 11:32 AM	#732
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	Steve, That Shuttle machine doesn't have a PCI-X slot but a PCI-Express.They are different. Are there PCI-Express Frame Grabbers? Rai, Just my opinion. Ask Steve which is the right motherboard to work with using SI GigEthernet drivers, put on it the fastest P4 you find, add a good RAID controller card (the best are the ones with the Intel XOR engine, they cost around $700), put as many disks as you want and I think you are ready to go if the capture software works well. Another hint: It would be the best to buy a motherboard with a PCI-X slot (64 bit, 66 MHZ)

July 14th, 2004, 12:09 PM	#734
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Have read newer information on the PS3, it will be shown at E3 may next year, and release musch later, so there is no point. Pity the price piont of console hardware is lower than PC. So false alarm.