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Machine vision lenses are not worth the expense; you can find good cinema lenses for less. I think I paid in the US$200-300 range for my vintage (but never used) Cinegon.
Rob, I wouldn't recommend jumping on the IBIS at the moment. It's just not ready for film production -- it's extremely insensitive, the global shutter mode cuts your exposure further and is thus totally worthless, and better things are right around the corner. It's been fun to experiment with, and it does have an interesting look, but it's rather frustrating at times... The Altasens models should be coming out pretty soon, and then you'll be able to choose from a few different vendors. For example, if you need CameraLink, Steve and SI will have you covered. If you want FW800, Sumix will hook you up. There also may be price adjustments based on competition. I'd sit back and relax for a couple months and keep working on the script. :) And to Soeren: The DOF is not the same as a standard resolution video camera with a 2/3" sensor. Remember that higher resolution will expose smaller circles of confusion. So if you have a 2/3" sensor with a resolution of 160x120, it will look like everything's in focus all the time. If you have a 2/3" sensor with 2 megapixel resolution, you'll spend a lot more time focusing... What is this obsession with 35mm DOF, anyway? A lot of 35mm cinematographers would kill for better DOF! To my eye, 720p on a 2/3" sensor gets me shallow DOF when I want it, and deep focus when I need it. It's the perfect size. People on these boards spend way too many hours slaving to make things look like Panavision. Why not embrace this unique format for all its beautiful properties? - ben |
Actually 2/3" format is about the same as 16mm which passes for a lot of professional products all the time on T.V., and nobody complains about DOF problems.
I agree though, 35mm DOF is nice for some things, but for general use, documentaries, etc., it's an extreme pain-in-the-butt. |
Ben, thanks (again ;o) for all the information you're sharing. However it seems you misunderstood me in regard to the DOF thing.. it was just to clarify things for me - meant as a question more or less. It's not that I'm "obsessed" with 35mm sensor sizes/DOF or anything. And of course you're right about the DOF differences when it comes to the different resolutions. However I meant the uhm.. dunno how to put it... the "overall rough DOF effect". ;-P
I'm fine with 2/3"... however I'd like to have slightly more res than "only" 720p. What about this (well sorry - although I'm not obsessed with 35mm DOF there _is_ some sort of obsession here with anamorphics ;o) -> all of these "easy to use" sensors (when it comes to handling all the data etc.) sport at least 1280 x 1024... by using an anamorphic adapter you wouldn't be far from 1080p (using some high quality scaling in post ;o). So instead of dismissing 304 "lines" of resolution simply use the full frame and an anamorphic lense. (yeah I know that you'll loose some light because of it) |
With the Altasens you ARE at 1920x1080, no need to try.
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Soeren,
I'm a big anamorphics fan as well -- I have a Kowa 1.75x lens I use for shooting 2.35:1 with 4x3 sensors... But I'm not planning on using it in HD, just because I want as little glass in front of the lens as possible. It's not a light loss issue, it's a chromatic aberration issue and a softness issue. Also, I've come to really like the 16x9 format. I thought briefly of shooting full frame with a 16x9 anamorphic adapter, but I'd rather shoot clean... Personally, resolution is not a big deal -- 720p is good enough for me... I'm just excited to be shooting with a frame larger than 720x480... |
Hey guys thanks for the replies. I understand the sentiments of not blowing 1000 on an ibis-5 when in the end it isn't what any of us want. My idea all along has been to wait for the Altasens. However, I have a script now and need to start raising some money, having an HD raw system was going to be one of my big selling points. So basically I need a few pieces of eye candy that 'prove' that I have that system. What I was hoping was that buy buying a cheaper camera I could get a couple of test shots while learning more about these systems for when the altasens came out. Like I said, I am still weighing all options, which is why I posted.
I think a big problem for people like me is that I come from a film making background not an engineering background. While I do dabble with all sorts of engineering related things the nuance of a really good bayer de-mosaicer is beyond me. So without something in my hands to work with and test its all just speculation. I really appreciate all the work everyone has been going to, it has been a huge education for me, I'm just itching to get my hands dirty. I agree with Ben on the DOF. A really well composed shot with really shallow DOF is amazing looking, but its like morphing or matrix effects. If it is over used its worthless. When you are making a movie its important to take things shot by shot. You should concern yourself with only what is needed for that shot. So if you only have 10 shots that will require intense DOF there are ways to fudge it (use a longer lens, mess with it in post, ect...) I really loved the idea of a 35 adapter at first but then realized that in the end it probably isn't necesary if enough time is given to what the shots are going to be and how they will be achieved. As far as the anamorphics are concerned I agree that it is a really viable option, I just finished shooting a project on 35 anamorphic and it was beautiful (and insanely expensive) I am not aware of any c-mount anamorphics, which puts us back to an adapter of some sort. |
information!
Ok, I been following the forum for a few month now.
and see that people say that this forum is to share information and then back up when is it is the time to release it. I'm going to spend my time and my very low badget ( all from my pocket) to build a camera and if I do it taken information from the forum I will be devoted to it posting step by step my progess. please practice waht you say, that is the way it should be. Ben Syverson please Is there the beta software available? Let see if any one here is willing to share the secrets of any working set up. So right now we only have available altasens and ib5a any other recomendations? I know I can build a very small computer but waht we are talking here is waht kind of interface to use that depends from the cmos you actually buy. I have read that there is a camera working wiht firewire interface but at the moment I haven't found any cmos wiht taht interface. Ok I'm open to hear from you guys. I'm actually filming with super16 and I love it enough dof at 1.4 so I can live at the moment with 3/4 inch and when a good 1inch cmos came to play yust buy it and snap it on to your camera.and go shut that it is waht all of this is about. |
Marto,
My software was available on my website, but someone hacked into our server recently, so it'll take me a bit to get it back up there... I should remind people that I'm not developing a comprehensive image capture application -- my software is a free After Effects plug-in for de-bayering. There are no "secrets" here, despite what you might think from reading some peoples' posts. Rob, Obin and I have been very up-front about the systems we put together and how we're going about it. For instance, I'm a pretty strong advocate against mini-PCs and Cameralink. My opinion is that if you use an interface that's available on a laptop (such as Firewire or Gigabit Ethernet), there's no need for a custom built mini-PC with an overly expensive Cameralink PCI card. Sumix is designing a Firewire800 Altasens camera, but just like everyone else using the Altasens chip, they're at the mercy of the chipmaker. From what I understand, Altasens has promised to deliver to manufacturers sometime in December, which should give us release dates of January or February. (?) Sumix has also stated interest in developing for Linux and Mac OS X, both of which endear them to me as well... The Altasens and the IBIS-5A are both 2/3", and have a very similar size to Super16, so you'll probably like the image characteristics. - ben |
Thnks Ben
waht you think about this micron MT9M413 1,280H x 1,024V (1,310,720 pixels) 12.0µm x 12.0µm 19.67mm 0–500+ frames/sec. (full array) >10,000 frames/sec. with partial scan 660 MB/sec. (master clock 66 MHz) <150mW @ 60 frames/sec. <500mW @ 500 frames/sec. +3.3V 10-bit digital through 10 parallel ports (color or monochrome) TrueSNAP freeze-frame electronic shutter 280-pin ceramic PGA High Speed I know waht you mean but where I can find a firewire altasens cmos censor sumix sells usb? do you know when it'll be released? will you be willing to send me the plug ing by email or chat/ thanks |
Hello Board! I thought I would introduce myself and say hello. I have been with DVinfo.net since it's birth many years ago. Chris Hurd being a friend of mine I make this board my forum home-base. Chris kept telling me to check out the Alternative Imaging Methods forum for some time, so one day I did while thinking what so special about this forum that Chris keeps pushing me to it. Well, to my surprise I knew why, the first clip I saw i couldn't believe it. Since then I have anonymously watched things develop. I have told Chrisa while ago that the alternative board section is and should be voted number 1 in DV magazine as being the most cutting edge publicly on display in HD/digital cinema research and design. I hope they do this. This place is cutting edge. I'm from the film side, that's where i learned my craft, Since the early eighties I have been also an advocate and supporter of electronic cinematography long before any of my collegues would even look at it. High-Def has had me hooked since I was 17 back in 1987 where I got to have my first use of it, and ever since then addicted to it's resolving power etc. That was also the year that Julia & Julia with Turner and Sting camera out, this was the first HD movie I saw on the major big screens in USA. It was in its fetus stage compared to the infant it is today. I have worked with the best from Showscan 60fps ( my favorite ), Iwerks to where we are today and in between. Many years ago, I wanted to build my own HD like system, but you all know that up tell recently it was cost prohibitive as well the technology was not off the shelve as it is becoming. When it comes to technology I am best at putting the pieces together and designing a workable system from components. My limitation is I don't build CCD,Cmos,circuit boards or write software. I have the highest respect for those that can.
Until yesterday I have had only two clips from this board. The two consisted of a flower pot on a buildings porch and surrounding parking lot. The other was of a guy with his watch and a red pickup truck. I have know idea the source except the link is from here. When I had put this on a 30+ foot screen it was remarkable many months ago and my jaw dropped. Not only because of the quality, but because the fact that is was done from a camera in the palm of their hand from a USB cable I believe. Again since I don't know who filmed it or what was used. I am guessing.... The quality on a screen looked like film, actually it reminded me of late 70's early 80's 35mm 5247 stock that had color issues. What's crazy is those clips are dupes that are not anywhere near the originals. I feel those of you that are doing this are ground breaking a path that will spawn all sorts of small camera manufactures like we had 20-30-40 years ago for 8mm-16mm 35mm motion picture cameras. Years ago I was speaking in LA on the future of Cinema and told the audience that one day people will be able to by off the shelve CCDs components memory card recorders etc and piece them together into a working component digital cinema system. I had know idea it was going to start to happen so soon. Here we are today- Why have I not bothered to post is I had nothing to offer to help you and felt it was better to listen and read in this case. My experience is, and many including Chris Hurd will back me up is I know imagery. I have had the privilege to work and be exposed to some of the highest level of quality. At Showscan many years ago when Douglas Trumbull owned it, this was detailed motion picture quality at it's best. Sony's special HD devision would bring cameras in to he lab and do extremely high-res tests of ShowScan in the early 90's, unfortunately it spoiled me to the point my eye becomes to damn picky and sensitive to quality issues. A problem with many cinematographers as well. Since I live just 45 minutes from ASC clubhouse, since I was teenager i have had the privilege to be in the Company of Daviau, Zsigmond, Wexler, Kovacs, Burum etc since I was a kid. That was my film School. Of course I have never got to talk to Storaro, ggrrrrrr...... He is a master of color and light. Yesterday, Markus Rupprecht came over to the FX1 section and posted his clips. The one with the lady was excellent, it's a good selling piece for this kind of technology setup . I will have plenty of stupid questions that I am sure has been answered many times. First question I have: What would it take to get 720P 10bit at 30fps and 24fps. Can a laptop be used for this? What brand cameras are out there that are proven. Lastly could I get a list of links to clips other then the one's I have mentioned. Thanks in advance. Michael Pappas Arrfilms@hotmail.com http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms http://www.pbase.com/PappasArtsHD http://www.PappasArt.com Costa Mesa, Ca, USA |
Hey Michael,
Welcome on board! :) I agree that this technology is extremely exciting -- from my perspective, it could change quite a lot in the industry within the next 12-18 months... Now, to answer your question... The datarates at the sizes you mention are extremely reasonable: 720p @ 24fps, 10bit: 26.36 Megabytes (MB, not Mb) per second 720p @ 30fps, 10bit: 32.95 MB/sec It's within the realm of USB2 and Firewire400, but most of the newer cameras will be using Firewire800, Gigabit Ethernet, or CameraLink (ugh). The clips you mention were shot by Obin (I believe), using a CameraLink-based camera tethered to a desktop computer. As far as I know, I'm the only one here using a laptop for recording -- everyone else is using desktops or custom hardware. Personally, I think laptops are the clear way to go. Desktops are too big, and custom rigs are too much trouble and too difficult to upgrade. Sumix is working on a FW800 camera using the Altasens 3560, the same sensor that is going into the Kinetta. Of course, the Kinetta will cost about 10X (literally) the price of the Sumix camera. The Sumix is the cam I'm excited about. The biggest advantage of FW800 is that you can make the camera bus-powered, for laptop shooting. In the meantime, I'm shooting with the same sensor as Markus and Rai, although I'm not quite as jazzed about it as they are. Any other questions? - ben |
Ben I found this camera it is using IBIS5a and have firewire interface.
http://www.isgchips.com/Templates/t_camera.htm I don't know witch cmos is better altacens or IBIS5a would be this camers sonthing you would recomend? thanks Hi michael I'm in my beginins stages of my project and willing to share any information I know. check sumix.com and micron.com |
Dear Marto:
Altasens :) Sincerely, Ben Syverson |
are you using IBIS5a ? by firewire?
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I got it, Altasens
dont get mad my friend |
I went mad long ago. :)
I'm using an IBIS-5A over USB2... (The Sumix 150-C) |
have you check the link I posted it is a IBIS5a with firewire any opinions about it?
tahnks sorry about my spelling it is a figth I have with my self too. |
Marto, I checked the link, but my opinion of any IBIS-5A based camera is pretty low right now, with the Altasens just around the corner. If you absolutely can't wait, then do what you gotta do -- otherwise, hang on for another couple months... From what I've seen, there's a world of difference between the IBIS and the Altasens.
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definatly I will have it into acount but I have a big project coming out the next month that I would like to do it digital.
waht budget are we talking about for a setup like yours I'm maybe willing to spend the mony anyway and then change to some thing better if I can snik the cmos in the production budget. thanks |
Hey Guys,
Nice to see things heating up here :-) BTW, I thought I'd bring up another interesting point again that kind of fell off quickly about a month ago. DNG (Digital Negative Format)-While Photoshop was the only supporter of this open RAW format when it was announced last month, there have now been a bunch of new commercial converts to the list. Phase One is going to be releasing their RAW conversion software using the .DNG format, as well as some photo-mangement solutions. So the message is this: If you don't want to fuss with RAW bayer demosaicers, don't! Take your RAW files and put a .DNG header on them (TIFF-EP with a couple extra tags specific to DNG, easy stuff really), and you can open them up with Photoshop's bayer converter, Phase One's bayer converter (soon), and with these two on board I'm sure we'll see Bibble come on board, and Yarc Plus, Dcraw, etc., etc. I've used Phase One's software, and I must say it's very, very nice stuff. Kind of like operating a telecine suite on your footage (for right now it's from my Canon D60). So anyways, this isn't hard to do, and it might make our lives a whole lot easier. I know that Scott said that you could take the .IHD files his software outputs and translate those to .DNG if you want, but also if you simply record the RAW information off the camera, you only have to put the .DNG header on it for it to be recognized by the conversion software, the only caveat being that these will have to be sequential files, and not a big binary RAW file or an .IHD that has multiple images embedded within it. So there might be a hit on drive performance, right now it's too early to say. So anyways, .DNG-I think this is a really good format for us to embrace that can make our lives much easier on the raw-bayer conversion end of things. |
I see waht Ben was saying.
http://www.altasens.com/products.html#2 Altasens 3560 anyone know the price range. thanks |
What is the difference between AltaSens ProCamHD 3560 and ProCamHD 2560 Looking at the 2560, it seems that this is well beyond where these chips have been before and I assume it's smaller file sizes as well on footage. Will the 3560 do the same as a 2560 , but if you ever need to use higher res shots for effects work it's always there to shoot with. Or are these two chips very different. What will the price be on a ProCamHD 2560.
What about the KH-F870Ufrom JVC. Or is this way over priced? http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/f...&feature_id=01 Michael Pappas |
Some random stuff:
The Altasens is real - we have had working cameras for about 2 months. Production volumes of the parts is the big problem. They are going through another mask revision (fine tuning) but that can add as much as 8 weeks of delay in shipment. *sigh* Keep in mind that if someone buys an Altasens from us now, we will ship a Micron now with the same interface and package and swap later for no charge. The good news is that we will probably be releasing the gigabit version at the same time as the production units are ready. This is a sweet spot for transmission - 1920 x 1080 x 30fps x 1.5bytes/pix (packed) = 94MB/sec packed or 75MB/sec at 24fps. This will be fine on both camera link and gigabit ethernet. Anyone know for sure what continuous video rate firewire 800 can sustain? On the IBIS5A lines, have you tried slowing the clock down a lot? Like in half. If the problem is the speed limited analog stage, the lines will go away at lower speeds. What we saw was the amplifier slew rates were low so as you shifted from a high level on a green to an adjacent red with a low level, the amp would move slowly and look like there was a partial red value. Really messes up the colors. |
Quote:
Quote:
- ben |
Only 80% of Firewire's bandwidth is dedicated to isochronous transfers (what you would be using.) For this type of data the theoretically maximum transfer rate is 80MBytes/s over 800Mb/s Firewire.
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Ben did you say the this Cmos will allow powering of the camera from the bus?
I'm aiming for 720p for production and for effects work I would go higher. What are we talking in ballpark prices for these. |
The Altasens model that Sumix is developing is bus-powered. The gigabit ethernet models could theoretically be powered by PoE (power over ethernet), but that wouldn't work for laptops.
I think the ballpark for these cams is US$4k - 5.5k. I haven't heard price info from Sumix, but that's the range Steve/Silicon Imaging has quoted... |
Quote:
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Oh, busted. Nevermind. :)
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Markus, when you said an optical solution for a 35mm adaptor, which solution did you use, a condensoe relay lense without projection plain, or are you talking about the Optexint angadaphd? With what ever adaptor you are using, are you getting true 35mm DOF and FOV, or only FOV, and are you getting more brigtness downconverting to 2/3rd, then with straight 35mm film?
Marto, when everybody but me answers it is ussually an indicatgion that it was discussed before a lot, and is in one of the 4 threads. The chip below is more costly, so nobody has built a camera on it. USB has a large CPU overhead hit, it is better to check for cameras based on Firewire. Gige, Cameralink, or UWB (Ultra Wide band wireless standard for USB2.0 and Firewire, next year). I have posted Philips firewire IBIS5 cameras in the technical threads too. Some of the variouse Phillips modles have multiple interfaces on them (including VGA preview). <<<-- Originally posted by Marto Lautz : waht budget are we talking about for a setup like yours I'm maybe willing to spend the mony anyway and then change to some thing better if I can snik the cmos in the production budget. -->>> I think I read somewhere or a reasonably cheap price for the Sumix Altasens. I forget but I think it might have been somewhere between $2K-3K. |
Welcome Michael:
Before you use a laptop, remember that many laptop drives are small and very data rate limited. This limts the max frame, bits, and shutter (if the camera does not memory buffer it). You would have to pick a laptop with a drive and drive interface with enough datarate, or with high interface and replace the little slow drive. 108024fps is likely to be beyond many laptops. Also you need to get a laptop with the right chips to run Giga-bit Ethernet and Firewireb at full speed. So for laptop it will be much better to get a firewire or Gige (Gigabit Ethernet) camera with on board lossless compression, buffered, packed, to reduce this data rate, and size on disk, to under half. As you can see we are still sorting out what to do with non buffered, non packed, non compressed desktops. But Sumix is supposed to introduce (and SI) an compressed firewire camera eventually, and with the right preview software (they are doing their own capture) it would be a perfect solution for laptops. We have discussed the KH-F870U from JVC. the original reference article said the price was to be under $2000, and we speculated that it must be $20, 000 instead. The only problem is that I've contacted JVC and they say it doesn't exist, or don't reply. The camera deosn't seem crash hot in range compared to the new altalsens, do you have any information on it? support denies all existence of the <<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : What about the KH-F870Ufrom JVC. Or is this way over priced? http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/features.jsp?tree=&model_id=MDL101390&itempath=&feature_id=01 Michael Pappas -->>> <<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : First question I have: What would it take to get 720P 10bit at 30fps and 24fps. Can a laptop be used for this? What brand cameras are out there that are proven. -->>> |
<<<-- Originally posted by Jason Rodriguez : NOT according to the datasheet from Altasens. The 720p-full-FOV mode is for monochrome only, or for a 3CCD camera that can dedicate each chip for red, green, and blue. Sorry about that, if you look back over the thread we were all a little bummed about that slight detail too. -->>>
I thought they used some sort of complimentary/primary hybrid colour processing to get over this problem with bayer cameras, from the pdf posted here (or in the technical thread) sometime ago? |
Hi Barend!
That's exactly what I was thinking about too. How long could the cables be with GigE? And how "thick" would they be? Eg. for using it on a remote head on a crane or perhaps even on a steadycam... if the cables are really long and flexible this wouldnt be a problem at all. And although the image quality with 8 bits can be or is great too the posibilities of what you can do with the image in post are quite limited in contrast to what's possible with 10 or better 12bit! This is a much more "film like freedom" imho... (and that's why I'm still interested in the DVX100 mod from another thread here too ;o) Cheers |
GigE or 1000baseT over copper cables has a listed maximum cable length of 100 meters (CAT6). The cables tend to be very flexible and not much thicker than your usual UTP cable.
Another solution is to use Fibre Channel. An Ethernet to Fibre converter goes for around 150 dollars. You'd need a Fibre card in your recording machine, but then you can use up to 40 km of cable ;-) Should be enough to get to the nearest wallsocket... (That's a joke of course). Bar3nd |
Hello Wayne!
My requirements are pretty low compared to others on purpose. All I need is: 720P 8-bit 24fps @ 1/48th On purpose I am keeping my requirements at this level. My personal feeling this is perfect for narrative story telling. And since the video won't be compressed when first captured like Varicam-Cinealta does, there is a little room to work with it. I would have to assume a laptop would work at this level? Am I wrong? Michael Pappas |
I recently spoke to a guy at Norpix (they make the streampix software). He claims that you don not necessarily need a raid to store the images. You can apparently use scsi hard drives that run at 10,000rpm.
Also could anyone tell me if the imperx 1920*1080 camera would be suitale with its 1" interline transfer CCD, it has a "c" mount. Would the optics be good for this since it has the bigger sensor? The camera has minimum illumination of 1 lux and has a electronic shutter. www.imperx.com |
Markus:
I believe that what you are doing is correct, for you. A well informed decision is in knowing where the steep price steps are and finding the level that is right for you. If you can run your recordings over USB 2.0 or firewire into a laptop (maybe you already have it) you are there for a cheap price. If that level of performance is unacceptable and you go to 10 bit or 1080 or both, you need to know the system costs and increase in complexity - the total cost of the decision. Ben: The Altasens 720p mode is an odd varient on subsampling. Normally, if you just subsample, you get every second, third, fourth line. The smallest step would be 960x540. On the Altasens, there is a 1.5x subsample. From our manual: Quote:
RGGRRGGR....... GGBBGGBG...... GGBBGGBG...... RGGRRGGR....... RGGRRGGR....... It seems a bit for ripe for color problems (blocks of 4 red and blue and no others nearby) but it *might* work. |
Steve Nordhauser do you have systems that can do very good good 720P 8-bit - 24fps @ 1/48th second cinematography?
Michael Pappas |
Michael, yes. Email me off this list steve@siliconimaging.com and we can talk about the options. I try to keep sales separate from information to the list. Thanks.
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Hi Ben... Thanks for answering my questions.... And everyone else too!
How much bigger is a 10bit 720 capture @ 24fps.. Just curious? vs my setup I would like? Ben I would love to have full res at 12bit 4:4:4, but it wont be a portable system and it must be 100% portable. Until the higer res 1080P 10bit+ can be portable, the 720 8 bit will have to do.... In studio it can be full res, and that's why I wondered about Altsens since if it can do 720 8bit for portable and when in studio go to the higher res for effects etc work if needed. For HDTV work 8 bit is good, since all the broadcast content are not anywhere near as good as they could be. Michael Pappas |
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