Eric

what type of machines does your roommate have access to?
We would need a med-large machine to cut a case that would house all the electronics..I was going with molds but hey if you have access CNC is da bomb!

Hey guys, i'm actually in the process of building a CNC mill for what its worth. I don't want to promise anything cause its not done yet but I would certainly be willing to put in whatever work I can. Oh yeah I have'nt forgotten about making the matte box either just had to post-pone it for awhile hopefully i will be fully on track in about 3 weeks.

they have a cnc machine. if you could send me some specs of what you were thinking of building, i could ask him if its possible.

OK, this time I take a short vacation and there is a civilized amount of reading. I'll be gone for another two days.

Obin:
Thanks for answering some of my product questions.

Obin on Altasens:
We have our first color camera running. I haven't checked them but my boss is busy messing with it. Here is an example:

http://www.siliconimaging.com/Sample...0corrected.zip

Altasens is being slow in releasing parts - probably no cameras until late October. We will have the boards ready, housings ready and support from frame grabber companies lined up.

Wayne:
That EOS controller is very cool - I've been looking for them. A motorized zoom is about $2K and up for c mount. For less you can use the Canon lenses. Great selection of optics. And putting a shutter on it. I'll talk to engineering about putting an RS-232 port on our cameras for lens control. Thanks.

On the SI-3170:
We had a few cinematographers messing with it about 1.5 years ago but as ....someone.... said, with the new cameras out, it isn't worth it. It is now nice for the people who need 3.2Mpix at 30fps but doesn't compare with the 3300 and 1920 for HD.

Machining:
This is also very cool - we have progressed to building cameras here. If people want, I would be happy to set up a web page to completed projects using our cameras.

TTFN,
Steve

Steve how much better color saturation would you say the Altasense has over the 3300? could you do a side by side test for me/us to see?

Hey Obin,

From what I've seen of the Altasens, it's far beyond the 3300 in ability. Saturation is not the only indication of quality, you can saturate something as much as you want if you have the right software. What does make a difference is the amount of noise and bit-dept; that's what limits saturation and other color-correction processes.

Frankly, from my experience the Altasens equals or surpasses the Thomson Viper in noise levels and dynamic range.

Of course it would be nice if I had a better RAW/bayer converter, such as something using Variable Number of Gradients, or maybe the one David Newman was working on, etc. Right now the converter I'm using, while quite functional, has a lot of problems when there's the slightest bit of noise, producing gridding patterns, etc. and I usually have to add a gaussian blur filter to remove that artifacting, and then re-sharpen the image afterwards.

But for real, the amount you can push this chips is quite astounding. And it pretty much will achive it's theoretical limit of 10 f-stops (1000:1) with the amount of noise that I'm used to seeing in a digital still camera like the D60 at around ISO500 (that would be ISO400 plus another 1/3rd stop). Or again, the amount of noise in the Viper, F900, etc. when trying to go for the maximum dynamic range (they're all around the same amount of noise, and to get the maximum dynamic range you have to underexpose them all a little, so again, it's around the same amount of noise or a bit less). Very good noise levels, color, and good dynamic range. I don't think you're going to get that out of the 10-bits on the 3300. In order to do that, you're going to have to set the white chip on the Macbeth to a setting of 25 RGB (out of 255 being maximum white), and at 10-bits, you simply can't do that without some severe banding when you normalize that, taking the bottom 10% of the image and stretching it out to the top 80%-90% and compressing the rest into overwhites. The clean 12-bits on the Altasens can do that, and I've been very impressed with this capability.

But whatever the case, as of right now, to get the quality we want out of these chips, we need a top-quality, big-screen capable bayer-converter; or maybe somebody has one and isn't telling us ;-)

Obin,

You got any screen shots of your capture app yet? Also is yours just a capture app, or a convert app also, and if so, what bayer de-mosaic algorithm are you using?

Hey Steve, should we be worried about initial quantities of the Altasens camera when you guys actually release it? Have you been excepting orders or do you not anticipate a problem? I can't wait to actually get my hands dirty on this project but unfortunatly I don't have the money to buy a 3300 just for experimentation.

I'm Baaaack
 

Altasens:
I don't see any real problems with the Altasens availability....once they start shipping. The problem is the turnaround time for silicon. They solve their problems, simulate, change masks, queue up for the foundary (no one actually makes their own chips anymore) cut and test the dies, package and test. This is an 8-16 week cycle. Once they have parts packaged, there shouldn't be an issue (I hope, since we have a bunch of orders on the books).

Obin:
I'm not sure at the raw data level what better saturation means. Better response curves on the Bayer color filters? The two sensors are from different companies so there is a good chance their filtering is different. Better IR cut filters? I believe Altasens suggested some and we would go with their suggestions. Slow pixel response (slow analog path) smearing one color into another? I think that both are OK with this but it is easy to tell with pure R, G, B targets. To be fair, you are comparing cameras that were meant for different markets (even at the sensor level) and a 2X price difference. If Altasens knows what they are doing, and they seem to, it will be a much better camera for those who can afford it.

Ethernet:
I just finished some more instruction on the ethernet interface and was given a benchmark on the SI-3300RGB. It was running 1920x1080@24fps, 10 bits (packed as 12) over a gigabit interface, continuous with 24fps *color* data display. Pitiful algorithm but you would record in raw mode. This is about 600Mbps. This is not cheaper than the camera link solutions but I would toss it out there for you integrators.

Jason:
Thanks for the work on the SI-1920 - no one flip out - he doesn't have one - but has been testing some sample images for noise and dynamic range for us.

Hey Steve,

Thanks for all the info. Also a lot of thanks to Ari Dresler who was willing to put up with my frequent requests for images at many different setting, etc. when I meant for him to poke around with registers on a "not-so-easy-to-use" interface.

And yah, it does seem like Altasens knows what they're doing, there aren't many motion picture sensors (practically none actually, except for the Viper/Cinealta, probably the new Panvision and prototype Arriflex) out there that can take a signal where the white chip is recorded at 25 linear (out of 255, or 10 IRE on a scale of 0 to 100 before gamma correction), and then get a wonderful, practically noise-free image (again probably equivalent to a pro-digital camera like the D60, 10D, D70, etc. at ISO500) with good color saturation. 9-10 stop range no problem. Quite amazing, and very exciting for us.

So we have passed the worst now...all this time our mother board has been the big hold-up! the pci bus has a problem and has been causing us weeks of run around and crap..I got a new board and I am running the 3300RGB at full 12bit 1080x1920 30fps!! not on disk yet but soon!

man it takes a pissload of light for this 3300 camera! I am not sure we could even use a mini35 type adaptor with this chip...how will the Altasense be?

Obin, you shouldn't be trying to expose the white chip (on a Macbeth chart) for 90% white, that's too bright. If you expose the white chip for 50% white, or maybe 40%, you should get more "sensitivity".

what is a "white chip" Jason?

The 90% white chip on the Macbeth. At the bottom of the Macbeth chart there are six grey-scale chips. The 90% white chip is of course the "white" looking one on the left-hand side.

Of course if you expose the 90% chip at 40-50%, you're technically underexposing, but that's what the internal camera electonics are typically doing anyways to create the headroom needed for soft overexposure clipping and extreme highlight handling in professional video cameras (i.e., those "film-gamma" settings that are advertised with certain HD cameras like the Varicam). I'm figuring that the 3300 shouldn't have too much noise so you can safely underexpose at those levels and then normalize/color-correct in post.

Jason please call it White Patch to avoid confusions. ;)

Also if someone is interested about discovering what is the exact exposure for a given light situation and have a Macbeth chart , here you got the corresponding RGB 8 bit values for every patch on the chart:

http://www.brucelindbloom.com/index....heckerRGB.html

So, if your exposure is right you should get the more or less same values after conversion to 8 bit with a gamma correction of 2.2 on a PC..

For informative purposes I will tell you that value for Black Patch is around 50 and for White around 241....
This doesn't mean that your blackest black will be 50, remember the Chart is a piece of paper and it reflects some light.If you put a piece of black velvet you will get a deeper black..

can someone give me a link to a chart that I could print out and shoot? something that will show dynamic range from the 3300rgb?


http://www.dv3productions.com/test_i...outside CC.jpg
http://www.dv3productions.com/test_i.../flower CC.jpg
http://www.dv3productions.com/test_i...-flowers-2.tif


all from 3300RGB Silicon Imaging Camera..I am happy with the images..I think it takes very good images and with the plus of having no smear and 1080P this is a good unit..I hope to Have CInelink Working with it soon at 24fps!

all captures above are with Xcap and the very BAD bayer filter it has ;)

it does take lots of light ...this chip/camera will need to be "lit" like film...this is a good thing right? keep the production value high! ;)

FYI the Epix capture card does NOT work with the Asus P4P 800 boards! even though the board is running the INtel 865PE chipset ..I don't know why but I have wasted weeks with this crap and I would hate anyone else to do the same!

Now I have a Gigabyte board with SIS chipset and it runs fine ..never FIFO overflow even at the max 1080p 60mhz clock!

Steve what is the MAX clock this 3300rgb can run at? 85mhz? 75mhz? I need to get CIneLInk running at that max clock all the time to reduce rolling shutter ;)

Hey Obin,

Why do you need to run at the Maximum Hz, when all you need is 48fps and dropping every other frame to get the same motion characteristics as a film camera with a 180 degree shutter? If you run the chip too high, you're not going to get the longer 1/48th of a second shutter you need, and your images will look really choppy, like "Saving Private Ryan" or something like that. Realistically, there shouldn't be any rolling sutter artifacts when you're running the chip at whatever Hz is needed for 48fps. I believe for the Altasens that we'll need to run the chip a 58Hz for that 48fps threshold.

because you can run at whatever fps you want with a high mhz..that is how we do it.

put the mhz at 60-80 for ALL shooting and do what you need with the shutter speed and or fps

Obin,
Could you give me the uncorrected 16 bit version of the outside image?
I mean the color image linear (not gamma corrected)....

http://www.dv3productions.com/test_i...16bit 1080.tif

this one?

I had some fun tweaking the tiff file obin posted. Nothing great - just a quick level and curve adjustment(s). The second image is more neutral in its color.

http://www.weet.us/test.tiff

http://www.weet.us/test1.tiff


Anyway, just thought I would share :). I definitely like having the extra room to tweak the image!

----

Interestingly the highlights on the flower seem to be blown out....

Obin,
Yes that one :).
After I apply gamma 2.2 it looks really washed out, so I must assume it is really overexposed or it has been gamma corrected.
Could you take the same image at the same hour but 1 or 2 stops darker?

You are wrong, it was not over exposed and it looks GREAT at gama 2 or 2.2 .... you MUST add contrast on the DARKS and work all your colors how you like...you will NEVER get an image you like with gamma only..gamma is not an endall/fixall solution..i'ts one of MANY steps to apply when going for your final "style" or "look"...

Yes I agree about gamma not being a fix-all. I am, however, not completely convinced that the image isn't over exposed. The image is clearly showing blow out highlights and this is only with a simple levels adjustment.... this should not be the case with normal footage.

I'm honestly somewhat confused by the images that have been pulled out of the camera. Don't get me wrong they look great and having the extra latitude is wonderous for color manipulation. There just seems to be something not quite right. I can't lay my finger on it yet though...

I blew out the road just a tad so that I could keep the really darks...just like I wanted it...I would not call that "blowout" just exposing for the darks..but maybe some will not agree...

Steve N:

what is the fastest we should have the 3300 running at in CIneLInk?

I need a max number for CInelink

Obin,
please don't get angry, I'm just saying what I found.
If I apply gamma 2.2 the image looks really bad, just that...
It looks to me it is not linear at all.That is why I asked you for another picture.Anyway, if you are so sure about everything was perfect, I believe you.
No problem , Never meant to say you were wrong :)

Hey, I was wonder has anyone tried to use the SI-1280? Also can the SDK be compiled in mingw32?

Hi all,

Just to let everyone that's contributing to this fascinating idea - I've been keeping track of this exciting thead for a while now. I'm not a very technical person so try to stay out of the discussions to avoid adding unneccesary noise...

But I was wondering: when looking at the preview window while capturing images from the camera - is there any noticeable delay or lag in the 'viewfinder'?

I guess this depends on the quality of the de-bayer and the preview resolution.

Thanks and keep it up :-)

Barend

tiny bit of "lag" yes..not much..I think it's ok to shoot with

Hey guys,
i lost track of this threat a while ago and just tried to read through the last 10 pages...
well, wasn't there some site where you put together the f.a.q.s about this project and what you have achieved so far?
i follow this as a filmmaker and potential future user and have to admitt that this is way to technical for me (of course it is...)
you guys are doing an amazing job here, this DIY ethic is highly appealing to me and i think, once you have a finished product out, a lot of filmmakers will buy from you rather than from the big asian corps...
keep on keeping on!
regards,

christian

Obin,
Could you tell me anything about your experience with the Epix FG?
Is their SDK easy to use?
Are you using Windows or Linux at this moment?

Yup, it's at ObscuraCam.
I know you were asking Obin, but I've used it too ... and I'm not overly impressed. It seems to work OK, but it's cryptic and complicated. Not easy to use. It does work in Windows and Linux (haven't tried Linux yet).

I'm asking cause, day after day, I'm thinking about using a better FG, with good capabilities.
You would tell me 'Oh, those FG cost a lot more money!!', and you will be right, but if that FG has a powerfull SDK, and if it has an onboard CPU, FPGA or IDE connectors I won't need to spend more than 1,5K bucks on a pentium M 2.0 GHZ with 2 GB RAM with a PCI-X slot and a riser card to get two (working?) PCI-X slots to be able to put a RAID controller.So that money will go totally to the FG.
Anyway that seems to be like finding the Holy grail..... :(

Rumor has it that all the FG are hard to use..I have talked with some that say the EPix is easer then most!! dunno maybe is rumor ONLY...but then maybe not..;)

Update:

I should have an installer for CineLink today so that I can test on the new machine that has a GIgabyte board with full spec PCI slots. ;)

We will be testing with 3300RGB and making changes for that chip as needed...I think I will stick with this chip for a while and see how things go as the Altasense seems to be a some-time-in-the-future project still...


Steve still no word on the MAX MHZ for the 3300rgb? I really have the feeling we need to crank this puppy UP above 60mhz because I can see lots of rolling shutter at 1080x1920 @ 24fps 60mhz

Obin on clock rates:
The direct answer to your question is that we only qualify the cameras to 60MHz clock but I just tested mine at 80 and 85MHz and it was happy. I got 32 and 34fps. To do this in the XCAP GUI, you need to send strings with the serial peek and poke. These are the same strings as the SDK will use.
80MHz is lc346882
85MHz is lc31c00f

Now for the indirect answer - you will need to go to a 64 bit grabber and bus or get a grabber with a big buffer (full frame of storage) or dynamic byte packing. The Epix, and many others do not pack data. Any bit depth above 8 bits uses two bytes per pixel. 60MHz is 120MB/sec - right at the max of the PCI-32 bus.

that means we are stuck at 60mhz with the rolling shutter stuff at 1080p?? I have spent enough time and money at trying to get the epix working I cannot switch cards now unless the epix 64bit is out soon( I talked with Epix and they are saying about 2 months!)

Steve I don't care about 35fps on the 3300 all I want is the high mhz to correct for the rolling shutter..can this be done?

why does the pci buss have to deal with 35fps at 80mhz? can't we use the blanking to cut that down to a datarate of 24fps 12bit @ 80-85mhz?

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Scott : Yup, it's at ObscuraCam.
I know you were asking Obin, but I've used it too ... and I'm not overly impressed. It seems to work OK, but it's cryptic and complicated. Not easy to use. It does work in Windows and Linux (haven't tried Linux yet). -->>>

Speaking of ObscuraCam, it hasn't been updated in a while. Have you been busy with other stuff Rob? If not, can you give us a short run down on how the convert app is going?

what would the datarate be from the 3300 @:

1920x1080
24fps
85mhz?
12bit/10bit

I have been distracted for the past few weeks, yes. Work, family, Olympics ... the usual :-)

I am continuing to make progress, however. The Convert software (which will soon be released under the GPL) is operational, though it only has a Nearest Neighbor Bayer filter at the moment. Here's a sample frame from the system:

TIFF, 16-bit (5.4 MB)
JPEG, 8-bit (133 KB)

This is a picture of my dog (who is appropriately named Pixel). I'm sure it is badly focused and exposed. It has only been Bayer filtered (Nearest Neighbor -- you'll see definite zippering along the edges of objects) and has not been processed in any other way.

I am currently working on an implementation of the "Color interpolated image using Laplacian second-order color correction I" algorithm which can be found here. It seemed like a good compromise between CPU load and image quality.