4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Les Dit · May 13th, 2004, 10:03 PM

OK Boys, the guessing game starts NOW !
Get on your best Goggle search hats and find all the board cameras that use mega pixel plus CMOS sensors !
( I'll bet is a development board for the sensor, not meant to be a product )
The winner gets a lollipop ;)

-Les

Wayne Morellini · May 13th, 2004, 10:56 PM

Guys, whatever cheap commercial alternatives you find, please feel free to list them in my thread:

Home made camera designs?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=25705

If you look in Jauns DVX100 thread, and the alternative Viper thread, I think a number of sensros are covered there as well.

Thanks

Wayne.

Laurence Maher · May 14th, 2004, 12:31 AM

With any of these cameras you guys are talking about creating, is there software out there you could use that already exists to capture? I heard about Boxx technologies having some near compressionless codec. Unless I get some serious tech-heads like you guys to write something up for me, I'd need to just buy something becasue I can't program at all.

Les Dit · May 14th, 2004, 12:39 AM

I'm done with the effects stuff. Worked at ILM and PDI and Dreamworks for 4 years each.
Just give me a good Drama, anyday....I usually like the foreign ones the best.
-sigh- ....off topic, i know, I know.
-Les

<<<-- Originally posted by Laurence Maher : You guys crack me up. See, I'm just a filmmaker in a DV Community full of program-writing tech-heads. I need to hang on this site more and learn something. I've worked very little with fx stuff. (Which is ironic being that I want to be in action/adventure/sci-fi flicks). I figured it'll take me another set of years to get profcient with that stuff, and I'd probably serve myself better to focus on stories without much fx work to get in the door. I'm fairly proficient at what it takes to get a productoin done from start to finish by myself, as long as I'm not doing a star wars flick. What are the programs you would suggest getting to know beyond basic editing/2-D Effects and transitions and beginner's chroma key? I barely even work with after fx. -->>>

Obin Olson · May 14th, 2004, 01:01 AM

that's cool Les, my brother would like to work for ILM someday...he works with our company at the moment doing 3d animation and fx for work we do...he is a very very good in LightWave...I have done the google of all google searches. I spent 3 whole days on google looking at all the cameras that are made ..MOST don't work for us, not enough pixels too high price not enough fps the list goes on....what I am doing is about 1 of maybe 3 choices I could find

James what is a k3? is this a good camera to use as a test unit? how is the lens? can you send me a link to one forsale?

Jason Rodriguez · May 14th, 2004, 04:31 AM

Just wondering,

Isn't there a lot of clipping in that girl's image? It looks very contrasty, which makes me wonder how many stops of dynamic range are you getting from that camera? It doesn't look like very many.

Richard Mellor · May 14th, 2004, 06:02 AM

hi everyone this is a link to the chip used in the kinetta.
http://www.altasens.com/technology.html

Bob Hart · May 14th, 2004, 06:33 AM

Okay.

Here is a really useless comment from a technological luddite. If frame rate from a single CMOS chip is a limitation, would a two way or three way prism split of the image onto two or three CMOS chips each down it's own processing path, ie., three computers and assembled sequentially onto a common path to come up with a continuous faster HD frame rate work?

Instead of having three CCDs, one each for three colour channels, have three channels, each for the same single chip colour image. - Just a thought.

Obin Olson · May 14th, 2004, 08:59 AM

no the limitation is your computer speed

Jason that is 8bit and shot by someone that knows nothing about shooting...I will just have to wait and see how it goes when I get the chip-camera-computer up and running

James Ball · May 14th, 2004, 12:06 PM

Krasnogorsk K3 16mm

A Russian made wind up 16mm camera. But not a toy! A bit ugly but no more so than some other cameras.

I got it because you can do stop motion animation with it. The windup gives stable 24fps for around 30seconds. The optics are fairly nice with a zoom prime. The reflex viewer gives a fairly bright image.

I think it would be a good test bed and the price is very cheap.

This camera is routinely used in a lot of film schools.

Super16 and Academy Aperture 16mm

The standard 16mm aperture is 7.5 x 10.4mm, giving an area of 78mm square.
The Super 16 aperture is 7.5 x 12.4mm, giving an area of 93mm square.
Therefore Super 16 gives an total image area 20% larger when the full apertures are compared in their original aspect ratios.

Laurence Maher · May 14th, 2004, 12:37 PM

Does anybody know about this new Final Cut Pro HD? It claims 10 bit 4:2:2 uncompressed 1080p at 90-160 MBps via PCI transport . . . and from SOFTWARE alone (No additional hardware)?

I'm not sure I buy this. I will say that if it does what it claims, it would limit the 4:4:4 idea, but sure gives us enough for Hollywood level acquisition.

Somebody tell me what I'm missing here:

http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/

James Ball · May 14th, 2004, 06:27 PM

how would you deal with this for VFX shots that need camera tracking for CGI??

There are two kids of tracking 2D and 3D. 2D is independent of the optics/CCD configuration so no problems there.

If you are going to composite a 3D object into a 2D (video) scene then you'll need a matchmoving program. Matchmover and Bijou are the two biggest ones out there. They have modules that make short work of this.

Hand match moving, really isn't possible in a production environment unless you limit what is going on, no zooming, and try to limit movement to X & Y. Also the camera would best be mounted on a nodal camera mount if you plan to pan or tilt.

So you're planning to use the Hughes HD CMOS chip?

I have a schematic for a mounting board
I have talked a lot with the people at AJA about the interface and they have had it up and running using the JVC HD-10u
I have the schematic, parts list and could get together the artwork for a mechanical shutter to get rid of your rolling shutter problem.

Obin Olson · May 14th, 2004, 07:17 PM

james I am not sure what your talking about...I am using a Micron chip on a board camera that will be fitted into the back of a 16mm film camera

Les Dit · May 14th, 2004, 08:48 PM

James,
Please elaborate on the "they have had it up and running using the JVC HD-10u" statement.

These parts don't snap together like LEGO, and tightly integrated consumer products like the JVC don't lend themselves to just swapping out a sensor. Am I missing something here? Were they JVC engineers with access to the firmware source code for the JVC so they could get somewhere ?
I don't want to sound brash, but I've been down this road many a time with people that turned out to be kooks.
-Les

Obin Olson · May 14th, 2004, 09:44 PM

Update:

got the 16mm K3 camera on order from overseas...hope this baby works out..it's a nice cheap film cam to tearup and test with ! god I have learned so much about digital, like the fact that anything over 8bit you can have so much control over in post for the "look" you want for the project..it's just amazing what can be done with uncompressed high dynamic range images! Making me take a 2nd look at how I shoot my Canon 10d that is for sure! NEVER shoothing anything but RAW from hear on out! ...can't wait to have this type of control over moving pictures!

May 14th, 2004, 06:02 AM	#22
Richard Mellor Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: cambridge ma Posts: 247	kinetta hi everyone this is a link to the chip used in the kinetta. http://www.altasens.com/technology.html

May 14th, 2004, 12:06 PM	#25
James Ball Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sulphur, LA Posts: 61	What is a K3 Krasnogorsk K3 16mm A Russian made wind up 16mm camera. But not a toy! A bit ugly but no more so than some other cameras. I got it because you can do stop motion animation with it. The windup gives stable 24fps for around 30seconds. The optics are fairly nice with a zoom prime. The reflex viewer gives a fairly bright image. I think it would be a good test bed and the price is very cheap. This camera is routinely used in a lot of film schools. Super16 and Academy Aperture 16mm The standard 16mm aperture is 7.5 x 10.4mm, giving an area of 78mm square. The Super 16 aperture is 7.5 x 12.4mm, giving an area of 93mm square. Therefore Super 16 gives an total image area 20% larger when the full apertures are compared in their original aspect ratios.

May 14th, 2004, 06:27 PM	#27
James Ball Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sulphur, LA Posts: 61	how would you deal with this for VFX shots that need camera tracking for CGI?? how would you deal with this for VFX shots that need camera tracking for CGI?? There are two kids of tracking 2D and 3D. 2D is independent of the optics/CCD configuration so no problems there. If you are going to composite a 3D object into a 2D (video) scene then you'll need a matchmoving program. Matchmover and Bijou are the two biggest ones out there. They have modules that make short work of this. Hand match moving, really isn't possible in a production environment unless you limit what is going on, no zooming, and try to limit movement to X & Y. Also the camera would best be mounted on a nodal camera mount if you plan to pan or tilt. So you're planning to use the Hughes HD CMOS chip? I have a schematic for a mounting board I have talked a lot with the people at AJA about the interface and they have had it up and running using the JVC HD-10u I have the schematic, parts list and could get together the artwork for a mechanical shutter to get rid of your rolling shutter problem.

May 14th, 2004, 08:48 PM	#29
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	what does it mean James, Please elaborate on the "they have had it up and running using the JVC HD-10u" statement. These parts don't snap together like LEGO, and tightly integrated consumer products like the JVC don't lend themselves to just swapping out a sensor. Am I missing something here? Were they JVC engineers with access to the firmware source code for the JVC so they could get somewhere ? I don't want to sound brash, but I've been down this road many a time with people that turned out to be kooks. -Les

May 13th, 2004, 10:03 PM	#16
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	OK Boys, the guessing game starts NOW ! Get on your best Goggle search hats and find all the board cameras that use mega pixel plus CMOS sensors ! ( I'll bet is a development board for the sensor, not meant to be a product ) The winner gets a lollipop ;) -Les

May 13th, 2004, 10:56 PM	#17
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Guys, whatever cheap commercial alternatives you find, please feel free to list them in my thread: Home made camera designs? http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=25705 If you look in Jauns DVX100 thread, and the alternative Viper thread, I think a number of sensros are covered there as well. Thanks Wayne.

May 14th, 2004, 12:31 AM	#18
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	With any of these cameras you guys are talking about creating, is there software out there you could use that already exists to capture? I heard about Boxx technologies having some near compressionless codec. Unless I get some serious tech-heads like you guys to write something up for me, I'd need to just buy something becasue I can't program at all.

May 14th, 2004, 12:39 AM	#19
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	I'm done with the effects stuff. Worked at ILM and PDI and Dreamworks for 4 years each. Just give me a good Drama, anyday....I usually like the foreign ones the best. -sigh- ....off topic, i know, I know. -Les <<<-- Originally posted by Laurence Maher : You guys crack me up. See, I'm just a filmmaker in a DV Community full of program-writing tech-heads. I need to hang on this site more and learn something. I've worked very little with fx stuff. (Which is ironic being that I want to be in action/adventure/sci-fi flicks). I figured it'll take me another set of years to get profcient with that stuff, and I'd probably serve myself better to focus on stories without much fx work to get in the door. I'm fairly proficient at what it takes to get a productoin done from start to finish by myself, as long as I'm not doing a star wars flick. What are the programs you would suggest getting to know beyond basic editing/2-D Effects and transitions and beginner's chroma key? I barely even work with after fx. -->>>

May 14th, 2004, 01:01 AM	#20
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	that's cool Les, my brother would like to work for ILM someday...he works with our company at the moment doing 3d animation and fx for work we do...he is a very very good in LightWave...I have done the google of all google searches. I spent 3 whole days on google looking at all the cameras that are made ..MOST don't work for us, not enough pixels too high price not enough fps the list goes on....what I am doing is about 1 of maybe 3 choices I could find James what is a k3? is this a good camera to use as a test unit? how is the lens? can you send me a link to one forsale?

May 14th, 2004, 04:31 AM	#21
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Just wondering, Isn't there a lot of clipping in that girl's image? It looks very contrasty, which makes me wonder how many stops of dynamic range are you getting from that camera? It doesn't look like very many.

May 14th, 2004, 06:33 AM	#23
Bob Hart Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PERTH. W.A. AUSTRALIA. Posts: 4,477	Okay. Here is a really useless comment from a technological luddite. If frame rate from a single CMOS chip is a limitation, would a two way or three way prism split of the image onto two or three CMOS chips each down it's own processing path, ie., three computers and assembled sequentially onto a common path to come up with a continuous faster HD frame rate work? Instead of having three CCDs, one each for three colour channels, have three channels, each for the same single chip colour image. - Just a thought.

May 14th, 2004, 08:59 AM	#24
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	no the limitation is your computer speed Jason that is 8bit and shot by someone that knows nothing about shooting...I will just have to wait and see how it goes when I get the chip-camera-computer up and running

May 14th, 2004, 12:37 PM	#26
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Does anybody know about this new Final Cut Pro HD? It claims 10 bit 4:2:2 uncompressed 1080p at 90-160 MBps via PCI transport . . . and from SOFTWARE alone (No additional hardware)? I'm not sure I buy this. I will say that if it does what it claims, it would limit the 4:4:4 idea, but sure gives us enough for Hollywood level acquisition. Somebody tell me what I'm missing here: http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/

May 14th, 2004, 07:17 PM	#28
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	james I am not sure what your talking about...I am using a Micron chip on a board camera that will be fitted into the back of a 16mm film camera

May 14th, 2004, 09:44 PM	#30
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Update: got the 16mm K3 camera on order from overseas...hope this baby works out..it's a nice cheap film cam to tearup and test with ! god I have learned so much about digital, like the fact that anything over 8bit you can have so much control over in post for the "look" you want for the project..it's just amazing what can be done with uncompressed high dynamic range images! Making me take a 2nd look at how I shoot my Canon 10d that is for sure! NEVER shoothing anything but RAW from hear on out! ...can't wait to have this type of control over moving pictures!