4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Obin Olson · February 24th, 2005, 10:04 AM

Thanks for the space Jason.looks like I have our site going for FTP again...please everyone don't download more then once or twice as my ISP will get on my ass again and make me take things down!

Steve Nordhauser · February 24th, 2005, 10:45 AM

Obin,
I'm not sure but I think if you use the Normalize controls in XCAP-lite to capture the reference frames, the library should be able to use them. I use the black level and gain reference frames all the time for our noisier cameras.

There is no map generated - just full image references.

Rai Orz · February 24th, 2005, 11:34 AM

edit:
Who would buy a camerahead with Altasens ProCamHD 3560 (1920 x 1080p, 12 Bit):

1.) with FireWire 1394b (800) max. 30fps (at 12Bit)

or

2.) Additional with build in double removable HDD disk frame to record direct full 12Bit RAW data up to 30fps on 2 x 2.5" HDDs. (In this case Firewire is only for prewiev and setup)

or

3.) max 60fps. Same as 2, but with 2 x build in double removable HDD disks to record direct up to 60fps on 4 x 2.5" HDDs.

Who are interested ?
And what would be your bid?

Jason Rodriguez · February 24th, 2005, 11:43 AM

Quote:

2.) max. 60fps. Additional with build in double removable HDD disk frame to record direct full 12Bit RAW data up to 60fps on 2 x 2.5" HDDs. (In this case Firewire is only for prewiev and setup)

How are you planning on doing that, since a RAW data-stream at 60fps will in no way fit onto two 2.5" drives? We have to be talking some form of compression here.

Obin Olson · February 24th, 2005, 11:43 AM

Rai I don't understand what your asking..please try again..

Rai Orz · February 24th, 2005, 12:04 PM

I had edit my posting, i hope its clear now.

Florin Popescu · February 24th, 2005, 12:46 PM

!double the fun!

Back for more. Why was I going dual? because I wanted to fashion something *truly* portable. As Steve pointed out in his expert fashion, there is a major bottleneck in notebook HDD speed.

Just got a new fujitsu notebook at work with latest intel m chipsest, gige, and one of the newest and fastest hds available. tested it at about 25MB/s sustained write (that's DV speed ain't it). But say I get myself an even faster laptop with two HDDs and interleave/save. Back to that 2 number.

The fastest notebook hd i can find on net, a 5400 one, is 34MBs read, so somewhat less for write (about 20% less for write than read from what I've seen). Anyone sees better ones, let me know. Most have 100MBps burst but who cares.

My USB external and portable 3.5" hd, howEVER, clocks at 30MBs read and write with 24% CPU loading. Same over Firewire. Lesson: external esb drives can and often are FASTER in sustained tr than any internal notebook drive.

Now, with a SI1920HD (please quote me please, Steve, offline, this vs 3300s, all GigE, so I can start making REAL contributions to this thread) what this means is I can tweak real-time compression (lossless jpg?) and maybe manage to squeeze 24fps1080p down to 50MBs (usb speed) and not overload cpu. At best, after lots of time spent scratching my facial stubble.

In light of 3CCD 50MBs panasonic coming out... well...

I have desktop RAID btw, but that's another matter. I'm going mobile.

Obin Olson · February 24th, 2005, 02:02 PM

we just found the issue with record to disk..our disk write code is out pacing the hard disk ability to keep up after 3-6 sec of record..we are looking at multithreading the save ..

Obin Olson · February 24th, 2005, 02:55 PM

we are going to write large chunks of data on the disk as this will allow a smooth save for the 96/MB sec datarate

also CineLink has been running for 2 hours previewing 24fps 12bit 1080 quad pixel @ 43% cpu

Does anyone know about the Altera Development kit that uses c++ for it's FPGA ??

Obin Olson · February 24th, 2005, 02:59 PM

Steve N.

how much work to support the 1920HD?

also I know you have told us but is the 1920 rolling or global? and if it's rolling what is the max MHZ it will push with a good CLEAN image output?(@ 1080p)

Steve Nordhauser · February 24th, 2005, 03:12 PM

Obin:
Congrats. You are moving serious data around. I would be careful about c++ programming for an FPGA. In video, you don't have much time between pixels 1920x1080x24fps is about a 60Mhz pixel clock. 16nsec between clocks. I would talk with Altera about whether this will work. The more abstractions you have, either you need lower level tools or at least you need to understand the lower level ramifications of the high level operations. Like writing device drivers in C++. Sure for a mouse, but for video? Maybe if you understand what the assembler of your loops look like.

The 1920HD is an Altasens camera. Rolling shutter, can run to 1080p@60fps with clean images (150MHz clock). You can also run it with that clock rate and take data off at 24fps to bang on rolling shutter issues. It is not a simple sensor - we are still testing out some of the less obvious functions. I think the people at the factory don't know about all the bells and whistles either. There is basic GUI support with both the Epix and GigE link versions right now.

Obin Olson · February 24th, 2005, 03:53 PM

Steve what type/speed FPGA would you look at to take in 1080 data record it on disk as raw files and display in black and white with quad pixel readout to a screen?

and BTW Juan I have gamma adjustment on the way for the preview letting us see into the darks and display an image that you CAN set exposure from!

ww.dv3productions.com/pub/dog.tif

Obin Olson · February 24th, 2005, 03:54 PM

so what is the datarate of the 1920HD at 150mhz!? 1080!

Kyle Granger · February 24th, 2005, 04:37 PM

Greeting, Obin! Your programmer may already doing this, but I thought I'd mention it. You definitely want to be using Windows' CreateFile() and WriteFile() calls with the OVERLAPPED flag, and a call to GetOverlappedResult(). This will allow for async writing, although Windows will most of the time, treat the write synchronously (returning "written" bytes in the WriteFile() call). The buffer size must be a multiple of the disk sector size (512 for me, though it can be 1024, or 2048 bytes). I saw things much slower with fopen, fwrite, fclose.

There are ways to force async writing (e.g., by extending the valid data pointer to a file (only under XP)), but I did not see any improvement.

I am also trying to get 96MB/sec, and have managed only 87.8MB, wth the current setup, although I can get 114MB/sec with the RAID alone, doing 2MB writes.

Still, with a 0.75GB buffer (on a 1GB machine), I can record for 94 seconds.

Yes, you definitely want to be writing larger chunks.

Kyle Edwards · February 24th, 2005, 04:46 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : www.dv3productions.com/pub/dog.tif -->>>

getting a 404 on that image.

February 24th, 2005, 10:45 AM	#2537
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	Obin, I'm not sure but I think if you use the Normalize controls in XCAP-lite to capture the reference frames, the library should be able to use them. I use the black level and gain reference frames all the time for our noisier cameras. There is no map generated - just full image references. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

February 24th, 2005, 12:46 PM	#2542
Florin Popescu New Boot Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 5	!double the fun! Back for more. Why was I going dual? because I wanted to fashion something truly portable. As Steve pointed out in his expert fashion, there is a major bottleneck in notebook HDD speed. Just got a new fujitsu notebook at work with latest intel m chipsest, gige, and one of the newest and fastest hds available. tested it at about 25MB/s sustained write (that's DV speed ain't it). But say I get myself an even faster laptop with two HDDs and interleave/save. Back to that 2 number. The fastest notebook hd i can find on net, a 5400 one, is 34MBs read, so somewhat less for write (about 20% less for write than read from what I've seen). Anyone sees better ones, let me know. Most have 100MBps burst but who cares. My USB external and portable 3.5" hd, howEVER, clocks at 30MBs read and write with 24% CPU loading. Same over Firewire. Lesson: external esb drives can and often are FASTER in sustained tr than any internal notebook drive. Now, with a SI1920HD (please quote me please, Steve, offline, this vs 3300s, all GigE, so I can start making REAL contributions to this thread) what this means is I can tweak real-time compression (lossless jpg?) and maybe manage to squeeze 24fps1080p down to 50MBs (usb speed) and not overload cpu. At best, after lots of time spent scratching my facial stubble. In light of 3CCD 50MBs panasonic coming out... well... I have desktop RAID btw, but that's another matter. I'm going mobile. __________________ Dr. Florin Popescu Fraunhofer FIRST, Berlin

February 24th, 2005, 03:12 PM	#2546
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	Obin: Congrats. You are moving serious data around. I would be careful about c++ programming for an FPGA. In video, you don't have much time between pixels 1920x1080x24fps is about a 60Mhz pixel clock. 16nsec between clocks. I would talk with Altera about whether this will work. The more abstractions you have, either you need lower level tools or at least you need to understand the lower level ramifications of the high level operations. Like writing device drivers in C++. Sure for a mouse, but for video? Maybe if you understand what the assembler of your loops look like. The 1920HD is an Altasens camera. Rolling shutter, can run to 1080p@60fps with clean images (150MHz clock). You can also run it with that clock rate and take data off at 24fps to bang on rolling shutter issues. It is not a simple sensor - we are still testing out some of the less obvious functions. I think the people at the factory don't know about all the bells and whistles either. There is basic GUI support with both the Epix and GigE link versions right now. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

February 24th, 2005, 10:04 AM	#2536
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Thanks for the space Jason.looks like I have our site going for FTP again...please everyone don't download more then once or twice as my ISP will get on my ass again and make me take things down!

February 24th, 2005, 11:34 AM	#2538
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	edit: Who would buy a camerahead with Altasens ProCamHD 3560 (1920 x 1080p, 12 Bit): 1.) with FireWire 1394b (800) max. 30fps (at 12Bit) or 2.) Additional with build in double removable HDD disk frame to record direct full 12Bit RAW data up to 30fps on 2 x 2.5" HDDs. (In this case Firewire is only for prewiev and setup) or 3.) max 60fps. Same as 2, but with 2 x build in double removable HDD disks to record direct up to 60fps on 4 x 2.5" HDDs. Who are interested ? And what would be your bid?

February 24th, 2005, 11:43 AM	#2540
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Rai I don't understand what your asking..please try again..

February 24th, 2005, 12:04 PM	#2541
Rai Orz Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 136	I had edit my posting, i hope its clear now.

February 24th, 2005, 02:02 PM	#2543
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	we just found the issue with record to disk..our disk write code is out pacing the hard disk ability to keep up after 3-6 sec of record..we are looking at multithreading the save ..

February 24th, 2005, 02:55 PM	#2544
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	we are going to write large chunks of data on the disk as this will allow a smooth save for the 96/MB sec datarate also CineLink has been running for 2 hours previewing 24fps 12bit 1080 quad pixel @ 43% cpu Does anyone know about the Altera Development kit that uses c++ for it's FPGA ??

February 24th, 2005, 02:59 PM	#2545
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Steve N. how much work to support the 1920HD? also I know you have told us but is the 1920 rolling or global? and if it's rolling what is the max MHZ it will push with a good CLEAN image output?(@ 1080p)

February 24th, 2005, 03:53 PM	#2547
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Steve what type/speed FPGA would you look at to take in 1080 data record it on disk as raw files and display in black and white with quad pixel readout to a screen? and BTW Juan I have gamma adjustment on the way for the preview letting us see into the darks and display an image that you CAN set exposure from! ww.dv3productions.com/pub/dog.tif

February 24th, 2005, 03:54 PM	#2548
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	so what is the datarate of the 1920HD at 150mhz!? 1080!

February 24th, 2005, 04:37 PM	#2549
Kyle Granger Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: . Posts: 52	Greeting, Obin! Your programmer may already doing this, but I thought I'd mention it. You definitely want to be using Windows' CreateFile() and WriteFile() calls with the OVERLAPPED flag, and a call to GetOverlappedResult(). This will allow for async writing, although Windows will most of the time, treat the write synchronously (returning "written" bytes in the WriteFile() call). The buffer size must be a multiple of the disk sector size (512 for me, though it can be 1024, or 2048 bytes). I saw things much slower with fopen, fwrite, fclose. There are ways to force async writing (e.g., by extending the valid data pointer to a file (only under XP)), but I did not see any improvement. I am also trying to get 96MB/sec, and have managed only 87.8MB, wth the current setup, although I can get 114MB/sec with the RAID alone, doing 2MB writes. Still, with a 0.75GB buffer (on a 1GB machine), I can record for 94 seconds. Yes, you definitely want to be writing larger chunks.

February 24th, 2005, 04:46 PM	#2550
Kyle Edwards Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: LI, NY Posts: 274	<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : www.dv3productions.com/pub/dog.tif -->>> getting a 404 on that image.