4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Obin Olson · February 20th, 2005, 04:49 PM

how high-speed Wayne? we need atleast 60MB/sec sustained not burst...

Wayne Morellini · February 20th, 2005, 06:46 PM

Hi-speed for a 320 GB drive. 36.8 to 65 (second from the top on the chart in the link, just below the Raptor).

720p*24fps at top pixel depth of 12bits per pixel = 33.1776MB/s. The ultimate cheap Indie option over the price/MB of the Raptor. Two could be used for 1080HD, if anybody wanted too.

Looking at my earlier post in the Tech thread, there is something faster than a Raptor, Maxtor Atlas 10K V (300 GB Ultra320 SCSI), but it is SCSI.

Thanks

Wayne.

David Farland · February 20th, 2005, 08:31 PM

If you don't already, trawl over http://www.storagereview.com/ for drive blah blah..

Maxtor Atlas 10K V [300GB SATA Details]
http://www.storagereview.com/article...8D300L0_2.html

Maxtor MaXLine III [300GB SCSI Details]
http://www.storagereview.com/article...300S0-2_2.html

and for a rainy day!
another quick microatx pentium M mobo with 64-bit 133 MHz PCI-X Rev. 1.0 slot http://www.win-ent.com/MB-06032.htm

ta,
DF

David Farland · February 20th, 2005, 08:40 PM

opps....

The Maxtor Atlas 10K V is the SCSI and the Maxtor MaXLine III is the SATA

Dan Diaconu · February 20th, 2005, 09:18 PM

Could this be of any help ?
http://www.arri.de/infodown/cam/broch/d20_e.pdf

Mark Nicholson · February 21st, 2005, 01:58 AM

It would be more complicated, by why not have a ram buffer that could easily sustain 60MB/s so that you don't have to use 15k SCSI drives to capture the footage.

That or it would it simpler and cheaper to capture to an 7200RPM four drive RAID 10, temporarily, then move the footage to other drives after capture.

I guess another option regarding a ram buffer would be to setup a ram disk in windows, then buffer the footage in that manner, or transfer between takes There is some free RAM disk software out there, that is supposedly pretty reliable. Just wouldn't want the power to go out before you transfered the data. If you would have to use the buffer then transfer the files between takes, which would be really annoying, but I guess it would feasible. At 60MB/s, you'd get a whopping 34 seconds with a 2GB ram drive. Any RAM above PC100 should have no problem with the throughput.

Wayne Morellini · February 21st, 2005, 03:05 AM

The Maxline is slightly faster on the inside and slower on the outside compared to the Western Digital 320GB.

Mark--
This has been discussed in times past, and I am sure the projects are already doing this, but if you want to post links and details that would be a help to anybody else doing a project.

The problem with transferring to slower drives, is that many of the slower drives are too slow to sustain a 60GB (or 35GB) read of the footage (unless the footage is compressed and the processor is fast enough to decompressed live) for playback and editing. So we are stuck with using more expensive drives, for the time being, or multiple ones of the cheap ones.

There was to be a 1300 720p camera (and I think Micron could do a new camera again), but by the looks of it Obin might be going to the 1080p cameras and scrapping the 1300 (has to many serious problems).

New Micron sensors--
I have looked through the Micron specs on their new sensors, and while the more expensive models have unspecific max Signal to Noise figures like >41db, the new cheap integrated mobile sensors (that might be suitable) specify exact max ratings in the low 40's dbs, rolling shutter, and I don't know about the smear and blooming problems have been solved. I don't know why they don't take their cameras to 48db, so at least you can do descent 8 bit footage, not to mention a solution to rolling shutter.

New parts, new commercial camera?--
Interesting things come up, I know of new all in one mobile phone chips (522Mhz Cpu), Mobile sensors that are fast enough, and faster 90GB 1.8 inch drives. Theoretically somebody could do a mobile with 720p (even 1080p with compression) with 2:1 (or 4:1 cineform) (over 2-4 hours on a Mobile!) compression or just an pro Eng codec (50-100mb/s nearly). Any volunteers?

The camera companies need to wake up and offer at least a phone camera. Imagine how useful this is for a camera news or doco person, let alone the average user,anything happens and instantly you have a piece to film it (though not the best footage) even a HD version would be welcome to a pro. People are far more likely to pay high prices for these than your average palmcorder.

Thanks

Wayne.

Eliot Mack · February 21st, 2005, 03:34 AM

Hi Steve,

A while back I recall that the ETA for the Altasens based SI-1920HD cameras was in the March timeframe . . . is that still reasonably current?

Steve Nordhauser · February 21st, 2005, 09:11 AM

The first production run is shipping on the SI-1920HD. Many of these are going to integrators since what you need is probably something like Obin's code (or at least good support from something like StreamPix) to use the camera.

SO, the answer is: they are are shipping NOW. We have them being integrated by our GigE group, Epix and Coreco for capture.

Obin Olson · February 21st, 2005, 11:00 AM

ok .

we are going with 2 SATA 10k rpm drives

simple. safe.

Obin Olson · February 21st, 2005, 08:27 PM

arrggg....we can't figure out why the software runs at 15% cpu on the 32bit card and 85% on the 64bit card!!! it's really weird...we are trying to see if the SDK and DLL files for the 64bit card are not working right..no ideas yet but I am sure it can't be that big of a deal...other then that we have the COnvert part working and feeding files from BOTH twin disks so that we don't need to copy everything from disk 1 to disk 2 for convert and we have a "snapshot " button that allows a color "snap" so we can see what the scene looks like in color...it's to much CPU load to preview in color 1080p 24fps so this will be a nice option

Wayne Morellini · February 21st, 2005, 11:35 PM

Put a new clean system hard disk in the unit, install only windows and software needed, and then test again. There could even be a conflict with old drivers pieces still left on the system from the 32-bit card, or some other software or internal windows configuration error.

If it won't work on a new system, maybe the MB/card/processor needs a updated bios and drivers. These sort of things are going to happen to a lot of users, unless the software compensates or the hardware configuration is locked down to only supported hardware. It could be that plainly the PCI card and slot aren't the most compatible because their designs don't match up properly, but treat this as a remote possibility, PCIX has been around a long time and should be stable and perform strongly. If all else fails, try another board, and if it works, go back to the original manufacturer and say to them that you wanted to use their board as the standard platform for all your customers, but it has problems, "can you fix it". trying an alternative board will probably be cheaper than getting your programmer to do even more messing around trying to find the problem.

Mark Nicholson · February 22nd, 2005, 01:04 AM

You might also want to make sure that the card isn't on a hardware shared IRQ, possibly with the video card. Usually your motherboard manual will have a layout of the slots that share IRQs. Probably not related to your problem with CPU utilization, but definetely may cause others to have issues with IDE-SATA controllers and sound cards.

Obin Olson · February 22nd, 2005, 08:47 AM

thanks guys! I think we have it found the issue...we ran tests with the .cpp test compile from Epix and it works really well on both 32bit and 64bit cards..I will get a recompile and full installer today of our software...I think with all the dicking around and hardware switching I may have a bad install...I will post the results asap later today when this gets done...

will check the IRQ on this system...needs to be done anyway..have not done that yet...

Jason Rodriguez · February 22nd, 2005, 09:14 AM

BTW Obin, the FTP site is still up when you need it.

Once you start putting files up, I'll leave them up for a week or two.

February 21st, 2005, 01:58 AM	#2496
Mark Nicholson Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Eldorado Hills CA Posts: 68	It would be more complicated, by why not have a ram buffer that could easily sustain 60MB/s so that you don't have to use 15k SCSI drives to capture the footage. That or it would it simpler and cheaper to capture to an 7200RPM four drive RAID 10, temporarily, then move the footage to other drives after capture. I guess another option regarding a ram buffer would be to setup a ram disk in windows, then buffer the footage in that manner, or transfer between takes There is some free RAM disk software out there, that is supposedly pretty reliable. Just wouldn't want the power to go out before you transfered the data. If you would have to use the buffer then transfer the files between takes, which would be really annoying, but I guess it would feasible. At 60MB/s, you'd get a whopping 34 seconds with a 2GB ram drive. Any RAM above PC100 should have no problem with the throughput. __________________ Sacramento http://eyepatchfilms.com 2x HD-250, BR-HD50, Media Composer

February 21st, 2005, 09:11 AM	#2499
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	SI-1920HD AltaSens The first production run is shipping on the SI-1920HD. Many of these are going to integrators since what you need is probably something like Obin's code (or at least good support from something like StreamPix) to use the camera. SO, the answer is: they are are shipping NOW. We have them being integrated by our GigE group, Epix and Coreco for capture. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

February 22nd, 2005, 01:04 AM	#2503
Mark Nicholson Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Eldorado Hills CA Posts: 68	You might also want to make sure that the card isn't on a hardware shared IRQ, possibly with the video card. Usually your motherboard manual will have a layout of the slots that share IRQs. Probably not related to your problem with CPU utilization, but definetely may cause others to have issues with IDE-SATA controllers and sound cards. __________________ Sacramento http://eyepatchfilms.com 2x HD-250, BR-HD50, Media Composer

February 20th, 2005, 04:49 PM	#2491
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	how high-speed Wayne? we need atleast 60MB/sec sustained not burst...

February 20th, 2005, 06:46 PM	#2492
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Hi-speed for a 320 GB drive. 36.8 to 65 (second from the top on the chart in the link, just below the Raptor). 720p*24fps at top pixel depth of 12bits per pixel = 33.1776MB/s. The ultimate cheap Indie option over the price/MB of the Raptor. Two could be used for 1080HD, if anybody wanted too. Looking at my earlier post in the Tech thread, there is something faster than a Raptor, Maxtor Atlas 10K V (300 GB Ultra320 SCSI), but it is SCSI. Thanks Wayne.

February 20th, 2005, 08:31 PM	#2493
David Farland Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sydney Posts: 32	If you don't already, trawl over http://www.storagereview.com/ for drive blah blah.. Maxtor Atlas 10K V [300GB SATA Details] http://www.storagereview.com/article...8D300L0_2.html Maxtor MaXLine III [300GB SCSI Details] http://www.storagereview.com/article...300S0-2_2.html and for a rainy day! another quick microatx pentium M mobo with 64-bit 133 MHz PCI-X Rev. 1.0 slot http://www.win-ent.com/MB-06032.htm ta, DF

February 20th, 2005, 08:40 PM	#2494
David Farland Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sydney Posts: 32	opps.... The Maxtor Atlas 10K V is the SCSI and the Maxtor MaXLine III is the SATA

February 20th, 2005, 09:18 PM	#2495
Dan Diaconu Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 804	Could this be of any help ? http://www.arri.de/infodown/cam/broch/d20_e.pdf

February 21st, 2005, 03:05 AM	#2497
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	The Maxline is slightly faster on the inside and slower on the outside compared to the Western Digital 320GB. Mark-- This has been discussed in times past, and I am sure the projects are already doing this, but if you want to post links and details that would be a help to anybody else doing a project. The problem with transferring to slower drives, is that many of the slower drives are too slow to sustain a 60GB (or 35GB) read of the footage (unless the footage is compressed and the processor is fast enough to decompressed live) for playback and editing. So we are stuck with using more expensive drives, for the time being, or multiple ones of the cheap ones. There was to be a 1300 720p camera (and I think Micron could do a new camera again), but by the looks of it Obin might be going to the 1080p cameras and scrapping the 1300 (has to many serious problems). New Micron sensors-- I have looked through the Micron specs on their new sensors, and while the more expensive models have unspecific max Signal to Noise figures like >41db, the new cheap integrated mobile sensors (that might be suitable) specify exact max ratings in the low 40's dbs, rolling shutter, and I don't know about the smear and blooming problems have been solved. I don't know why they don't take their cameras to 48db, so at least you can do descent 8 bit footage, not to mention a solution to rolling shutter. New parts, new commercial camera?-- Interesting things come up, I know of new all in one mobile phone chips (522Mhz Cpu), Mobile sensors that are fast enough, and faster 90GB 1.8 inch drives. Theoretically somebody could do a mobile with 720p (even 1080p with compression) with 2:1 (or 4:1 cineform) (over 2-4 hours on a Mobile!) compression or just an pro Eng codec (50-100mb/s nearly). Any volunteers? The camera companies need to wake up and offer at least a phone camera. Imagine how useful this is for a camera news or doco person, let alone the average user,anything happens and instantly you have a piece to film it (though not the best footage) even a HD version would be welcome to a pro. People are far more likely to pay high prices for these than your average palmcorder. Thanks Wayne.

February 21st, 2005, 03:34 AM	#2498
Eliot Mack Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Somerville, MA Posts: 37	Hi Steve, A while back I recall that the ETA for the Altasens based SI-1920HD cameras was in the March timeframe . . . is that still reasonably current?

February 21st, 2005, 11:00 AM	#2500
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	ok . we are going with 2 SATA 10k rpm drives simple. safe.

February 21st, 2005, 08:27 PM	#2501
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	arrggg....we can't figure out why the software runs at 15% cpu on the 32bit card and 85% on the 64bit card!!! it's really weird...we are trying to see if the SDK and DLL files for the 64bit card are not working right..no ideas yet but I am sure it can't be that big of a deal...other then that we have the COnvert part working and feeding files from BOTH twin disks so that we don't need to copy everything from disk 1 to disk 2 for convert and we have a "snapshot " button that allows a color "snap" so we can see what the scene looks like in color...it's to much CPU load to preview in color 1080p 24fps so this will be a nice option

February 21st, 2005, 11:35 PM	#2502
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Put a new clean system hard disk in the unit, install only windows and software needed, and then test again. There could even be a conflict with old drivers pieces still left on the system from the 32-bit card, or some other software or internal windows configuration error. If it won't work on a new system, maybe the MB/card/processor needs a updated bios and drivers. These sort of things are going to happen to a lot of users, unless the software compensates or the hardware configuration is locked down to only supported hardware. It could be that plainly the PCI card and slot aren't the most compatible because their designs don't match up properly, but treat this as a remote possibility, PCIX has been around a long time and should be stable and perform strongly. If all else fails, try another board, and if it works, go back to the original manufacturer and say to them that you wanted to use their board as the standard platform for all your customers, but it has problems, "can you fix it". trying an alternative board will probably be cheaper than getting your programmer to do even more messing around trying to find the problem.

February 22nd, 2005, 08:47 AM	#2504
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	thanks guys! I think we have it found the issue...we ran tests with the .cpp test compile from Epix and it works really well on both 32bit and 64bit cards..I will get a recompile and full installer today of our software...I think with all the dicking around and hardware switching I may have a bad install...I will post the results asap later today when this gets done... will check the IRQ on this system...needs to be done anyway..have not done that yet...

February 22nd, 2005, 09:14 AM	#2505
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	BTW Obin, the FTP site is still up when you need it. Once you start putting files up, I'll leave them up for a week or two.