4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Rob LaPoint · February 17th, 2005, 09:03 PM

Thats awesome Obin! I can't wait to check out the footage (now I only need a monitor to display it!) As far as looking for beta testers I would definitly be interested. How much was the Epix card?

Ocar are you wondering how my design is going? The only thing that I am currently designing is a mattebox w/follow focus and some motion control equipment. I am not sure that I ever mentioned the motion control on this board because its not exactly 'alternate imaging' Anyway, its going well, I've been a bit busy the last few weeks, but I am controlling motors with the computer fine. I am almost finished with my first CNC mill, which was half for education half for using to build new mounts and stuff. I will post something when I actually have a piece of working camera related equipment.

Kyle Edwards · February 17th, 2005, 10:41 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob LaPoint : Thats awesome Obin! I can't wait to check out the footage (now I only need a monitor to display it!) As far as looking for beta testers I would definitly be interested. How much was the Epix card? -->>>

Looks to be around 450 dollars US.

Valeriu Campan · February 17th, 2005, 11:59 PM

Obin,
I could host some files also, until the end of the month after Jason...
I'll email the info for uploading if you are interested

Ed Smith · February 18th, 2005, 04:53 AM

I've been following this discussion on and off, but have never posted on it before now. It sounds like a really interesting project.

If you need any help with the design of a case to house the bits I am more than willing to create some pre-visuals (provided you supply me with dimensions and pictures of the components).

Good luck!

Rob Lohman · February 18th, 2005, 04:59 AM

Obin: just wanted to let you know I'm still here. Don't know what
happened to Rob S. though. I just don't have the money to get
the gear needed, so I can't support everyone much. Sorry.

Wayne Morellini · February 18th, 2005, 10:51 AM

Emailed Rob, and he is busy, so eventually he'll get back here.

Who put up that nice case design picture a number of months back (two color, one red or green)).

<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson :
then i can shoot stuff with no dropped frames low cpu usage and full motion preview!

I would be happy to let some people try the software as soon as we get the basics really working well..you would need to buy a SI 3300RGB and a Epix CL2 card to use things..or you could get a 1920HD ALtasnse from SI! but that will cost a bit more -->>>

What about Gige?

How much does the processor need for 24fps 720p? I have just seen pictures of a Linux machine with new dual (core?) VIA processors, which means the 2W dual core processor should be available in sub-notebooks sometime.

Also I have noticed that notebook and 1.8 inch drives, have gotten greatly improved performance and density. So we are getting to the stage that a $500 notebook with GiGE will be enough.

Ed Smith · February 18th, 2005, 11:13 AM

You can get GigE accelerator boards, that help a lot with data transfer. At work, with 2 machines using accelerator cards if I remember rightly we have been able to get 3 streams at about 10MB/s. These also have the added advantage of taking the network traffic processing away from the CPU. Mind you they are quite expensive.

http://www.alacritech.com/html/gigabit_ethernet.html

Mind you I can't find the post about the thruput this project will need.

Just an idea...

Wayne Morellini · February 18th, 2005, 12:53 PM

There is a number of Gige cameras out from SI etc, with support planned in the capture packages? Some MB have it, and there are high speed drivers (100MB/s) for some Intel ones.

Thanks

Wayne.

Rob LaPoint · February 18th, 2005, 01:35 PM

Orinially I was very intersted in the Gige possibilities, guess I still am for that matter. Does anyone know if the Gige cameras also have a Cameralink ability that wouldn't limit the data to Gige rates(have your cake and eat it too)? Obin can the Epix card handle 1080P above 24fps, I know that sounds really greedy but what the hell! If the cameras or card can't really handle much above 1080P @ 24fps then I see no reason to stick with CameraLink.

Steve Nordhauser · February 18th, 2005, 03:43 PM

Rob,
The GigE interface can move 100MB/sec. It can pack the 12 bit data - 2pix/3 bytes. It has an internal buffer so you can use average data rates: 1080p24fps is 1920*1080*1.5B/pix * 24fps = 75MB/sec - room to grow.

You can either get a 1920HD as a -GR (gigabit, remote head, essentially a camera link camera with an external interface and could be used with a frame grabber) or a -GE which has the interface built in.

The Epix 64 bit card that Obin has, besides being a fine paperweight, is a 64 bit/66MHz grabber. Camera link is limited to 85MHz clocks. The SI-3300 is single tap - you can move 12 bits at up to 85MHz and meet the CL spec (I've run it over 100MHz but not suggested for a product). The SI-1920HD is a dual tap - you can run the full speed of the chip. Two 75MHz 12 bit data paths. On the bus, this is unpacked so the peak data rate (not buffered) is 75MHz * 2 pix/clock * 2B/pix = 300MB/sec peak on the bus. *Danger* - the 64/66 Bus is a max of 532MB/sec and realistically 450MB/sec. You still can only cross the bus once. Matrox makes the Helios which can handle a 133MHz bus if you have it.

The bottom link is if you are looking for slow motion recording at full HD, CL is still the way to go. For a basic 24-30fps, GigE is good.

Rob LaPoint · February 18th, 2005, 06:31 PM

Thanks for the low down Steve! I guess in my own head I never really considered shooting 1080p for slow-mo, I always figured I would move down to 720p for that anyway. Obin I know that you were planning on taking your software into the Gige arena at some point but what would it take to get it there? Is it the sort of thing you would be interested in testing now (or in the near future) or would you like to get all the bumps worked out with Cameralink beta testers first?

Obin Olson · February 19th, 2005, 10:16 AM

we need SOLID robust CameraLink FIRST! then I will be looking at other things..at the moment things worked great with the 32bit card(but the speed is much to slow) and now with the new paperweight 64bit card we are having a much higher CPU% while preview and record then we should..I know it's OUR software because Xcap can display full 12bit color with no problems and black and white preview at about 18% cpu! ..this is good news because it's OUR problem not the hardware...we can fix this...

Rob LaPoint · February 19th, 2005, 05:57 PM

Sounds great Obin, I assumed that that is what your plan was but figured that there was no harm in asking. I have to finish up a promo video Im working on before I will have enough money to buy a camera, but its defintily something I want to do. I would really love to beta test your software when I get one!

Obin Olson · February 20th, 2005, 01:00 PM

Our programmer has CineLink running with 18% CPU at preview with 65mhz 1080p 24fps...I guess I have a bad version or a bug in my build..should get somthing early monday for tests..will keep everyone posted...

how is the 1920 Steve? is it a lower noise camera then then Micron 3300RGB?

Wayne Morellini · February 20th, 2005, 04:24 PM

You are using 2Ghz CPU, are you saying that the preview and capture works at 18% (400Mhz) that would be great, or just the preview?

Forgot to mention, over at the technical thread I have posted a few good things for the camera, including 300+GB high speed, low cost drives.

February 17th, 2005, 09:03 PM	#2476
Rob LaPoint Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Pavilion, USA Posts: 64	Thats awesome Obin! I can't wait to check out the footage (now I only need a monitor to display it!) As far as looking for beta testers I would definitly be interested. How much was the Epix card? Ocar are you wondering how my design is going? The only thing that I am currently designing is a mattebox w/follow focus and some motion control equipment. I am not sure that I ever mentioned the motion control on this board because its not exactly 'alternate imaging' Anyway, its going well, I've been a bit busy the last few weeks, but I am controlling motors with the computer fine. I am almost finished with my first CNC mill, which was half for education half for using to build new mounts and stuff. I will post something when I actually have a piece of working camera related equipment. __________________ Whatever works

February 18th, 2005, 04:53 AM	#2479
Ed Smith Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hampshire, England Posts: 1,545	I've been following this discussion on and off, but have never posted on it before now. It sounds like a really interesting project. If you need any help with the design of a case to house the bits I am more than willing to create some pre-visuals (provided you supply me with dimensions and pictures of the components). Good luck! __________________ Ed Smith Hampshire, UK Good things come to those who wait My Skiing web www.Frostytour.co.uk For quick answers Search dvinfo.net \| The best in the business: dvinfo.net Sponsors

February 18th, 2005, 04:59 AM	#2480
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Obin: just wanted to let you know I'm still here. Don't know what happened to Rob S. though. I just don't have the money to get the gear needed, so I can't support everyone much. Sorry. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

February 18th, 2005, 11:13 AM	#2482
Ed Smith Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hampshire, England Posts: 1,545	You can get GigE accelerator boards, that help a lot with data transfer. At work, with 2 machines using accelerator cards if I remember rightly we have been able to get 3 streams at about 10MB/s. These also have the added advantage of taking the network traffic processing away from the CPU. Mind you they are quite expensive. http://www.alacritech.com/html/gigabit_ethernet.html Mind you I can't find the post about the thruput this project will need. Just an idea... __________________ Ed Smith Hampshire, UK Good things come to those who wait My Skiing web www.Frostytour.co.uk For quick answers Search dvinfo.net \| The best in the business: dvinfo.net Sponsors

February 18th, 2005, 01:35 PM	#2484
Rob LaPoint Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Pavilion, USA Posts: 64	Orinially I was very intersted in the Gige possibilities, guess I still am for that matter. Does anyone know if the Gige cameras also have a Cameralink ability that wouldn't limit the data to Gige rates(have your cake and eat it too)? Obin can the Epix card handle 1080P above 24fps, I know that sounds really greedy but what the hell! If the cameras or card can't really handle much above 1080P @ 24fps then I see no reason to stick with CameraLink. __________________ Whatever works

February 17th, 2005, 10:41 PM	#2477
Kyle Edwards Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: LI, NY Posts: 274	<<<-- Originally posted by Rob LaPoint : Thats awesome Obin! I can't wait to check out the footage (now I only need a monitor to display it!) As far as looking for beta testers I would definitly be interested. How much was the Epix card? -->>> Looks to be around 450 dollars US.

February 17th, 2005, 11:59 PM	#2478
Valeriu Campan Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 223	Obin, I could host some files also, until the end of the month after Jason... I'll email the info for uploading if you are interested

February 18th, 2005, 10:51 AM	#2481
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Emailed Rob, and he is busy, so eventually he'll get back here. Who put up that nice case design picture a number of months back (two color, one red or green)). <<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : then i can shoot stuff with no dropped frames low cpu usage and full motion preview! I would be happy to let some people try the software as soon as we get the basics really working well..you would need to buy a SI 3300RGB and a Epix CL2 card to use things..or you could get a 1920HD ALtasnse from SI! but that will cost a bit more -->>> What about Gige? How much does the processor need for 24fps 720p? I have just seen pictures of a Linux machine with new dual (core?) VIA processors, which means the 2W dual core processor should be available in sub-notebooks sometime. Also I have noticed that notebook and 1.8 inch drives, have gotten greatly improved performance and density. So we are getting to the stage that a $500 notebook with GiGE will be enough.

February 18th, 2005, 12:53 PM	#2483
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	There is a number of Gige cameras out from SI etc, with support planned in the capture packages? Some MB have it, and there are high speed drivers (100MB/s) for some Intel ones. Thanks Wayne.

February 18th, 2005, 03:43 PM	#2485
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	Rob, The GigE interface can move 100MB/sec. It can pack the 12 bit data - 2pix/3 bytes. It has an internal buffer so you can use average data rates: 1080p24fps is 192010801.5B/pix * 24fps = 75MB/sec - room to grow. You can either get a 1920HD as a -GR (gigabit, remote head, essentially a camera link camera with an external interface and could be used with a frame grabber) or a -GE which has the interface built in. The Epix 64 bit card that Obin has, besides being a fine paperweight, is a 64 bit/66MHz grabber. Camera link is limited to 85MHz clocks. The SI-3300 is single tap - you can move 12 bits at up to 85MHz and meet the CL spec (I've run it over 100MHz but not suggested for a product). The SI-1920HD is a dual tap - you can run the full speed of the chip. Two 75MHz 12 bit data paths. On the bus, this is unpacked so the peak data rate (not buffered) is 75MHz * 2 pix/clock * 2B/pix = 300MB/sec peak on the bus. Danger - the 64/66 Bus is a max of 532MB/sec and realistically 450MB/sec. You still can only cross the bus once. Matrox makes the Helios which can handle a 133MHz bus if you have it. The bottom link is if you are looking for slow motion recording at full HD, CL is still the way to go. For a basic 24-30fps, GigE is good. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

February 18th, 2005, 06:31 PM	#2486
Rob LaPoint Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Pavilion, USA Posts: 64	Thanks for the low down Steve! I guess in my own head I never really considered shooting 1080p for slow-mo, I always figured I would move down to 720p for that anyway. Obin I know that you were planning on taking your software into the Gige arena at some point but what would it take to get it there? Is it the sort of thing you would be interested in testing now (or in the near future) or would you like to get all the bumps worked out with Cameralink beta testers first? __________________ Whatever works

February 19th, 2005, 10:16 AM	#2487
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	we need SOLID robust CameraLink FIRST! then I will be looking at other things..at the moment things worked great with the 32bit card(but the speed is much to slow) and now with the new paperweight 64bit card we are having a much higher CPU% while preview and record then we should..I know it's OUR software because Xcap can display full 12bit color with no problems and black and white preview at about 18% cpu! ..this is good news because it's OUR problem not the hardware...we can fix this...

February 19th, 2005, 05:57 PM	#2488
Rob LaPoint Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Pavilion, USA Posts: 64	Sounds great Obin, I assumed that that is what your plan was but figured that there was no harm in asking. I have to finish up a promo video Im working on before I will have enough money to buy a camera, but its defintily something I want to do. I would really love to beta test your software when I get one! __________________ Whatever works

February 20th, 2005, 01:00 PM	#2489
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Our programmer has CineLink running with 18% CPU at preview with 65mhz 1080p 24fps...I guess I have a bad version or a bug in my build..should get somthing early monday for tests..will keep everyone posted... how is the 1920 Steve? is it a lower noise camera then then Micron 3300RGB?

February 20th, 2005, 04:24 PM	#2490
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	You are using 2Ghz CPU, are you saying that the preview and capture works at 18% (400Mhz) that would be great, or just the preview? Forgot to mention, over at the technical thread I have posted a few good things for the camera, including 300+GB high speed, low cost drives.