4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project

Wayne Morellini · January 17th, 2005, 10:58 PM

That's the one released at the IBC last year, it is more like mpeg codec, but because it is at a much higher data rate it works. David said that they need somehing like twice as much data to do the same quality, a month or two ago.

Obin Olson · January 18th, 2005, 08:53 AM

only 3 more days till we get a 64bit card ;) yummmyyy I hope they stay o schedule!!

10bit 1080p 24fps is 21MB/sec on the avid codec....bottom like this looks good enough to me...

Hi Obin,

You can use these codecs in any application that lets you export quicktime movies. The number you see beside the different DNxHD export options is the bitrate in megbits/second. e.g. 1080p/23.976 at 10-bit is 175 megabits/sec (21 megabytes/sec), 720p/23.976 at 10-bit is 90 megabits/sec (11 megabytes/sec).

I'm not specifically sure about the compression algorithm used, but I do know it is definitely not mpg. I have heard it is wavelet, but not directly from Avid. From the basic tests I've done, it is visually lossless. I haven't tried generation tests, though it is supposed to withhold it's quality through a large amount of generations. Most of the information available is on the Avid website, you'd have to talk to one of their techies to learn more.

Jason Rodriguez · January 18th, 2005, 09:50 AM

Obin, where did you get this email from? Is this quote an email directly from AVID?

Thanks,

Jason

Obin Olson · January 18th, 2005, 10:24 AM

from a list of avid users that I posted a question on

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · January 18th, 2005, 02:28 PM

It is DCT.Avid says it is DCT so why not believing them?

Jason Rodriguez · January 18th, 2005, 03:39 PM

DCT at 220Mb/s sounds like a mess to me, probably somewhere inbetween HDCAM and D5 (but closer to HDCAM).

Wayne Morellini · January 19th, 2005, 07:09 AM

It might not be as good as cineform for multigeneration and compaction. But raw 1080p single chip is nearly 440Mb's, so that's 2:1, does it have a special bayer mode aswell?

John Logan · January 19th, 2005, 01:21 PM

hello everybody!

I'm new on the board and as you I'm fed up with DV. I'm a video technician who wants to make documentaries with a 720p 10 bits one single 2/3" Cmos-hd B&W home made camera. I read almost all posts and identified the issues. I still have some questions :
- There is no Bayer on mono camera indeed so will I have better sensibility (1 stop)?
- The post de-Bayer process, white-balance, color correction is not required anymore . So will I be able to edit without other post-shooting process?
- Which kind of artefacts will still be there (in B&W RAWs with a global shutter sensor) ?

Once these issues resolved I will make a portable system with a laptop broken in parts (viewfinder/pc+ one ATA 3.5" 80GB disk) and one 2/3 chip camera. I don't know what to buy yet. IBIS 5 ?

Lots of questions for a start...

BTW special thanks to Obin, Rob&Rob, Juan, Bob and Wayne.

Steve Nordhauser · January 19th, 2005, 02:35 PM

John,
Quite an adventure you have started. If I may try to summarize what you want for a system:
720p monochrome
10 bits (internal IBIS-5A converter?)
Global shutter

For monochrome imaging, you will be concerned with the black level, gain and....anyone know if there is a different name for the gamma?

You shouldn't get a lot of artifacts in the raw images with a global shutter although you will have to do some offset and gain processing on each pixel if you want a good image with the IBIS-5A.

We will have a monochrome only 1920p camera out in awhile that might interest you - contact me off the list if it does.

Obin Olson · January 22nd, 2005, 10:04 AM

Still no 64bit card..they tell me monday..

Filip Kovcin · January 25th, 2005, 11:57 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : Still no 64bit card..they tell me monday.. -->>>

any news Obin - 64?

filip

Rob LaPoint · January 25th, 2005, 04:07 PM

Obin, I know you are on hold waiting for the 64 bit card. Are you guys pretty much done other than that though? It sounds like things are about ready (software wise) for beta testing. I am gearing up to make a camera purchase in the next 1-2 months and am just wondering what your plans are. Right now you are key to being able to use these machine vision cameras for production. What are your plans for your software and do you have any idea how early you might let some of us get our greedy hands on it?

Obin Olson · January 25th, 2005, 06:36 PM

Ok - good news sorta...I got an email update on the 64bit card today. Good news is they HAVE the card on hand! bad news is they will have a bit more testing with the registry on the board - BUT it looks like this is an easy task and should take about 1-3 days..so I am still hoping they get them out this week! as much as I beat on the doors with emails and phone calls I am sure I will be one of the first with a board! things will start to heat up soon so stay posted jsut a bit longer!

Rob yes we are very close with beta software. Really waiting on the board at this time because we can't really test capture-to-disk without the board..everything else is very close and I am sure I could do some shooting in a few days if we had the CL2 64bit card...but you never know when you stick new hardware in the system..so no promise but we will do the best we can.

I WILL NOT GIVE UP.

Adrian White · January 27th, 2005, 12:38 PM

Obin, what has been your componenet cost until now, including the forthcoming framegrabber?

Obin Olson · January 27th, 2005, 02:13 PM

good news but my machine at work is an ass and I can't post more then this..updates later today

64bit card is in UPS!@!!!

DIrectDraw is working for PREVIEW!

January 19th, 2005, 02:35 PM	#2394
Steve Nordhauser Silicon Imaging, Inc. Join Date: May 2004 Location: Troy, NY USA Posts: 325	John, Quite an adventure you have started. If I may try to summarize what you want for a system: 720p monochrome 10 bits (internal IBIS-5A converter?) Global shutter For monochrome imaging, you will be concerned with the black level, gain and....anyone know if there is a different name for the gamma? You shouldn't get a lot of artifacts in the raw images with a global shutter although you will have to do some offset and gain processing on each pixel if you want a good image with the IBIS-5A. We will have a monochrome only 1920p camera out in awhile that might interest you - contact me off the list if it does. __________________ Silicon Imaging, Inc. We see the Light! http://www.siliconimaging.com

January 25th, 2005, 04:07 PM	#2397
Rob LaPoint Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Pavilion, USA Posts: 64	Obin, I know you are on hold waiting for the 64 bit card. Are you guys pretty much done other than that though? It sounds like things are about ready (software wise) for beta testing. I am gearing up to make a camera purchase in the next 1-2 months and am just wondering what your plans are. Right now you are key to being able to use these machine vision cameras for production. What are your plans for your software and do you have any idea how early you might let some of us get our greedy hands on it? __________________ Whatever works

January 27th, 2005, 12:38 PM	#2399
Adrian White Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: leicester uk Posts: 26	Cost? Obin, what has been your componenet cost until now, including the forthcoming framegrabber? __________________ how far can we push these cameras?

January 17th, 2005, 10:58 PM	#2386
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	That's the one released at the IBC last year, it is more like mpeg codec, but because it is at a much higher data rate it works. David said that they need somehing like twice as much data to do the same quality, a month or two ago.

January 18th, 2005, 08:53 AM	#2387
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	only 3 more days till we get a 64bit card ;) yummmyyy I hope they stay o schedule!! 10bit 1080p 24fps is 21MB/sec on the avid codec....bottom like this looks good enough to me... Hi Obin, You can use these codecs in any application that lets you export quicktime movies. The number you see beside the different DNxHD export options is the bitrate in megbits/second. e.g. 1080p/23.976 at 10-bit is 175 megabits/sec (21 megabytes/sec), 720p/23.976 at 10-bit is 90 megabits/sec (11 megabytes/sec). I'm not specifically sure about the compression algorithm used, but I do know it is definitely not mpg. I have heard it is wavelet, but not directly from Avid. From the basic tests I've done, it is visually lossless. I haven't tried generation tests, though it is supposed to withhold it's quality through a large amount of generations. Most of the information available is on the Avid website, you'd have to talk to one of their techies to learn more.

January 18th, 2005, 09:50 AM	#2388
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	Obin, where did you get this email from? Is this quote an email directly from AVID? Thanks, Jason

January 18th, 2005, 10:24 AM	#2389
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	from a list of avid users that I posted a question on

January 18th, 2005, 02:28 PM	#2390
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	It is DCT.Avid says it is DCT so why not believing them?

January 18th, 2005, 03:39 PM	#2391
Jason Rodriguez Trustee Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 1,095	DCT at 220Mb/s sounds like a mess to me, probably somewhere inbetween HDCAM and D5 (but closer to HDCAM).

January 19th, 2005, 07:09 AM	#2392
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	It might not be as good as cineform for multigeneration and compaction. But raw 1080p single chip is nearly 440Mb's, so that's 2:1, does it have a special bayer mode aswell?

January 19th, 2005, 01:21 PM	#2393
John Logan Tourist Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: france Posts: 2	hello everybody! I'm new on the board and as you I'm fed up with DV. I'm a video technician who wants to make documentaries with a 720p 10 bits one single 2/3" Cmos-hd B&W home made camera. I read almost all posts and identified the issues. I still have some questions : - There is no Bayer on mono camera indeed so will I have better sensibility (1 stop)? - The post de-Bayer process, white-balance, color correction is not required anymore . So will I be able to edit without other post-shooting process? - Which kind of artefacts will still be there (in B&W RAWs with a global shutter sensor) ? Once these issues resolved I will make a portable system with a laptop broken in parts (viewfinder/pc+ one ATA 3.5" 80GB disk) and one 2/3 chip camera. I don't know what to buy yet. IBIS 5 ? Lots of questions for a start... BTW special thanks to Obin, Rob&Rob, Juan, Bob and Wayne.

January 22nd, 2005, 10:04 AM	#2395
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Still no 64bit card..they tell me monday..

January 25th, 2005, 11:57 AM	#2396
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : Still no 64bit card..they tell me monday.. -->>> any news Obin - 64? filip

January 25th, 2005, 06:36 PM	#2398
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Ok - good news sorta...I got an email update on the 64bit card today. Good news is they HAVE the card on hand! bad news is they will have a bit more testing with the registry on the board - BUT it looks like this is an easy task and should take about 1-3 days..so I am still hoping they get them out this week! as much as I beat on the doors with emails and phone calls I am sure I will be one of the first with a board! things will start to heat up soon so stay posted jsut a bit longer! Rob yes we are very close with beta software. Really waiting on the board at this time because we can't really test capture-to-disk without the board..everything else is very close and I am sure I could do some shooting in a few days if we had the CL2 64bit card...but you never know when you stick new hardware in the system..so no promise but we will do the best we can. I WILL NOT GIVE UP.

January 27th, 2005, 02:13 PM	#2400
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	good news but my machine at work is an ass and I can't post more then this..updates later today 64bit card is in UPS!@!!! DIrectDraw is working for PREVIEW!